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Not super rich or super smart? Well then, don’t major in the arts

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Jr. Member
Jul 19, 2004
157 posts
6 upvotes
Toronto

Not super rich or super smart? Well then, don’t major in the arts

Quite an interesting read:
http://business.financialpost.com/2014/ ... -the-arts/

Is there really a future in STEM (besides Engineering) here in Canada?
But shouldn’t we encourage more young people to enroll in something more akin to the math, science and engineering program? Those who studied these subjects tend to earn more than two and a half times the median income. And with only 60,000 total students, they won’t mind a few extra bodies.
46 replies
Sr. Member
Jun 3, 2012
645 posts
260 upvotes
Scarborough
Yet another article that fails to take into the realities of today's job market. The problem in Canada today is that there are not enough skilled jobs available. Period. If what the author was saying is true then we wouldnt have so many unemployed/underemployed people with STEM backgrounds. Not all those unemployed/underemployed in Canada come from arts backgrounds. Look at all the immigrants in this Canada with STEM backgrounds working McJobs. Is there education also the problem? Even if a significantly higher proportion of Canadian students completed STEM degrees we'd have a problem similar to what we have today.
Deal Addict
Feb 20, 2008
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Anonymouse wrote: Only 1/3 of people with engineering degrees work in engineering or engineering management.
Can you give a quick source for the 1/3 number (sorry, it's been a while since I've last been involved in this discussion). In addition, the real question is how many engineering graduates who want to work in engineering are unable to do so? I have no problem with only 33% of engineering grads going into the field if only, for example, 45% of them actually want to.
Anonymouse wrote: The rest drift into other fields, where they make less than engineers do.
I assure you that my engineering graduate friends who went into medicine and banking make more than the average engineer. In general, some of these engineering graduates who go into other fields make more money than the average engineer, and some make less. You can not make a general statement that applies to all of them. You should know that.
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Oct 26, 2003
39338 posts
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Winnipeg
op stop promoting people into STEM, we need burger flippers still
Deal Guru
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Nov 6, 2010
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Montreal, QC
You forgot "super talented" in the title :lol:

The only good thing about that article is that it (perhaps inadvertently) highlights how trades are often overlooked when students decide what to do post high school
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Nov 2, 2013
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Well to find work you got to set yourself apart. Being another Joe with a very common degree who wants to just find a cushy office job close to home with family and friends won't do you much good because that's what everyone else wants...

Trades are more secure for work and money, but not everyone wants to do one. Especially if you are sweating your bag off in heavy thick coveralls for 12+ hours a day for weeks straight, sometimes away from family
Accountant (Public Practice)
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Oct 1, 2011
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Compared to any developed country, Canada had the highest percentage of post-secondary educated workers earning less than half the Canadian median employment income, according to a 2006 Statistics Canada study.
I would like to explore more about why this is. Note that this statistic doesn't specify whether the studies were in the Arts, Sciences, Maths, Engineering, Business, etc.

This statistic remains even while including a number of countries (e.g. in Scandinavia) where tuition is free.

Something is clearly wrong with our system.
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Nov 6, 2010
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peanutz wrote: I would like to explore more about why this is. Note that this statistic doesn't specify whether the studies were in the Arts, Sciences, Maths, Engineering, Business, etc.

This statistic remains even while including a number of countries (e.g. in Scandinavia) where tuition is free.

Something is clearly wrong with our system.
Well you'd probably need to know what % of graduates are in what fields and probably what % of the population overall has a University degree to get a better picture.
Banned
Dec 30, 2011
97 posts
21 upvotes
Hamilton
Truth is there was never really any future in the science and mathematics in Canada. The nature of our industry and talents is one based on pulling resources out of the ground and building the infrastructure to facilitate that, while we export it to other nations to turn them into finished goods. Anecdotally, I can say that the only people I know who have gotten and earning at or above the national median with advanced graduate degrees in math, physics, and chemistry were American or international students that managed to either get a job with the NSA, the defense industry, or just plain old research and development. As for the Canadians, either they're waiting for their post-doc funding to dry up or they're starting from the beginning in retraining in a different career.

As for the engineering and technology part of STEM, I can't comment on that.
Sr. Member
Aug 29, 2004
952 posts
271 upvotes
We shouldn't forget that Econ/poli sci/history degrees make smart people smarter. How many world leaders come from engineering backgrounds?

A strong society needs to be educated in order to globally compete, but you also need leaders who see the big picture which to some extent is missing in the majority of those with stem backgrounds
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Sep 23, 2009
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The reality is that a number of companies don't want do this thing called "Training". I put the word in " " because it is becoming a foreign concept.

Why should they be worried about training when individuals who were already trained elsewhere are willing and able to work for a price which is agreeable to them?

This is the real issue, companies are becoming more reluctant to spend the resources themselves and demand a ready to work employee.

In the past, companies were willing to spend the resources and get a well-trained individual. The times have changed and the supply of workers has greatly increased. They no longer have to focus on hiring in Canada, they can go out and hire someone else from wherever.

As an individual it means that there is far more competition than there was in the past.

Going to College or University with the hope and dream that you will be able to work for a minimal wage is likely not what most people in the country believe in, but when others are willing to do it, you have to change your expectations.

People are willing to do those jobs at that pay because they believe it will lead to a better life. The harsh reality is that all it does is undercut yourself and your earning potential in the future.

Companies know there are plenty of people who have the dream and are willing to do what they want at the price they determine.

Globalization is a frightening thing for those of us common people who are employees.
Jr. Member
Feb 8, 2013
153 posts
10 upvotes
Welland
Too many people are going that shouldn't be going.
Newbie
Sep 18, 2013
8 posts
I found the article to be kinda pointless and rambling.. I mean I'm not a humanities major but it seems like she spent a good part of the article explaining why she was an "elite" humanities student and tried to place herself in the "super smart" partition of her title with her tone, lol.
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Helixn wrote: I found the article to be kinda pointless and rambling.. I mean I'm not a humanities major but it seems like she spent a good part of the article explaining why she was an "elite" humanities student and tried to place herself in the "super smart" partition of her title with her tone, lol.
I noticed exactly this, too. :razz: Ironic, considering almost all posters find her article overly simplistic, not very insightful, or vague.

"I don't think people should study arts and the humanities...I mean, yeah I did but I'm really smart. So only really smart, or really rich people! Everyone else, bugger off into STEM or trades... (except a lot of STEM and trades grads are struggling in certain parts of the country, too.)
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Feb 20, 2008
2674 posts
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Anonymouse wrote: Statistics Canada National Household Survey.
This is what has been answered before. Then I ask for a link to this survey. There has never been follow-up after that. You need to tell me how to see this thing as easily as possible.
Anonymouse wrote: If you poll final year undergraduates, essentially all of them say that they intend to become licensed professional engineers. You can find these surveys going back many years on the Engineers Canada site.
That's missing the mark. I know these surveys you're talking about, and they indeed show that most undergraduate students in their fourth years intend to work in engineering. But when they start to actually look for a job, I bet they see other things that interest them and they apply to those jobs. It's not the same. I want the OSPE or whatever to tell me how many engineering graduates who are working in other fields are doing it out of necessity and not choice. The last OSPE report I saw about this acknowledged that they didn't even bother to ask this important question.
Anonymouse wrote: For sure we need unemployed engineers in case someone has a bright idea and starts a company. But it seems cruel and demeaning to have so many go through the most rigorous training available at any university, and be completely rejected by the profession.
They are not owed jobs, regardless of employment numbers or statistics. The toughness of the engineering program is one reason why engineering graduates are so versatile and move into other fields. Personally, I feel like the best thing I got out of engineering school was the confidence that I can do anything.
Anonymouse wrote: Those are the exceptions that prove the rule.
This doesn't make sense. How does the fact that some engineering graduates who work in non-engineering fields and make more money than the average engineer prove the rule that all engineering graduates who work in non-engineering fields make less money than the average engineer? Do you see how that makes no sense?
Anonymouse wrote: The fact is that the vast majority of people with engineering degrees who work in other fields make less money than engineers or engineering managers do.
That isn't a fact until it's been proven. Show me the evidence. And I see that you've gone from 'all' to 'the vast majority.' You can't make baseless claims.
Anonymouse wrote: People are not doing it because the grass is greener, this is a myth.
People do it for a variety of reasons: happiness, opportunity, and necessity.
Deal Addict
Feb 5, 2010
2764 posts
183 upvotes
Liberal arts degrees are useless on their own. They need to be supplemented by additional training and/or education whether it be in business or tech etc.

Regardless of STEM/Arts etc. General business skills are key unless your in the Public Sector (in most cases).
Deal Addict
Feb 20, 2008
2674 posts
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I looked in there but didn't see it. Can you point to the specific page that has the figure or the numbers to calculate it myself? I can't find it. I've asked you this before and you haven't produced.
DrXenon wrote: You seem to be claiming that 65% of people who put themselves through 4-5 years of engineering school go from career aspiration to career aspiration like a butterfly goes from flower to flower.
I wouldn't put it that way, but yes. I think that a lot of people who go through engineering school take other interesting jobs when they get out into the real world.
DrXenon wrote: I knew a lot of Arts students like that, but was that your impression of the people you went to engineering school with? Be honest.
Most people in my classes weren't super into it. The few that were stayed in the field. Others went into business, teaching, healthcare, etc. LinkedIn tells me that one of my former classmates who was working for a government as a policy analyst just quit and went into nursing school. That is not representative, of course, but it is an example. People do all sorts of things.
DrXenon wrote: People don't go to engineering school to do "anything." They go to become engineers. That is the evidence of the final year survey, and it is incontrovertible.
Yes, that's probably what most of them think when they enter the program, I'd bet. The final year survey is good, but doesn't address how many people in the workforce who wanted to get engineering jobs were unable to do so.
DrXenon wrote: You really didn't understand what he was saying? The average income of engineers who go into the other jobs is LESS than what they would make as an engineer.
He said:
Anonymouse wrote: Only 1/3 of people with engineering degrees work in engineering or engineering management. The rest drift into other fields, where they make less than engineers do.
He didn't say anything about averages. He says that all people with engineering degrees that don't work in engineering make less than engineers do. He should have said 'The rest drift into other fields, where most make less than the average engineer' or similar.

In any case, what's the source for his claim in the way that it should have been worded / your claim? That the "average income of engineers who go into the other jobs is LESS than what they would make as an engineer." I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that was the case, but I need to see the source.
DrXenon wrote: Do you know a lot of people who voluntarily change careers into one in which they make less money? Be honest.
No, of course not.
DrXenon wrote: About 30% of them go into jobs that do not require a university degree at all. So I'd say it's "necessity."
If that is the case, why? You can't say definitely that is out of necessity. I would gladly hire a software developer who has no university degree if they knew their ***** and they could prove it with good work experience. How many ECE graduates go into software?

My whole theme here is that you need good sources that say exactly what you are saying or that definitively allow you to derive these numbers. I will believe anything as long as I see the proof. These OSPE reports are not very useful (I wish they were). Why do they talk to students instead of people out there in the workforce? Why do the not ask about happiness?

By the way, I can honestly say that I'm looking for a new job right now and I'm not seeing a lot out there. But I won't let that colour my view. I need stats.
Deal Addict
Feb 20, 2008
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BUMP - still waiting for Dr Xenon to explain his figures. He never has before, will he do it this time??? Probably not!
Deal Addict
Jan 10, 2007
1863 posts
344 upvotes
Woodbridge
please stay away from stem. we dont need anymore.


Im all for people getting these types of degrees. Its for the betterment overall as a society. However it needs to be clear that a degree like that wont automatically lead to some high paying job.
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Feb 7, 2008
1552 posts
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Toronto
renoldman wrote: The reality is that a number of companies don't want do this thing called "Training". I put the word in " " because it is becoming a foreign concept.

Why should they be worried about training when individuals who were already trained elsewhere are willing and able to work for a price which is agreeable to them?

This is the real issue, companies are becoming more reluctant to spend the resources themselves and demand a ready to work employee.

In the past, companies were willing to spend the resources and get a well-trained individual. The times have changed and the supply of workers has greatly increased. They no longer have to focus on hiring in Canada, they can go out and hire someone else from wherever.

As an individual it means that there is far more competition than there was in the past.

Going to College or University with the hope and dream that you will be able to work for a minimal wage is likely not what most people in the country believe in, but when others are willing to do it, you have to change your expectations.

People are willing to do those jobs at that pay because they believe it will lead to a better life. The harsh reality is that all it does is undercut yourself and your earning potential in the future.

Companies know there are plenty of people who have the dream and are willing to do what they want at the price they determine.

Globalization is a frightening thing for those of us common people who are employees.

good points

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