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Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 9:46 am
by nineiron
Kris81 wrote: Okay to put it simply.

Anderson Silva is the best boxer in MMA. Freddie Roach has said this, and everyone who has trained with him has said this.

Silva also has some of the best BJJ next to Damien Maia in all of MMA.

He has precision striking all around. He beats fighters at their own games & strengths.


GSP isn't even the best wrestler in his division (Koscheck was outwrestling him in their last fight, so he moved to the jab)

GSP isn't the best boxer in his division (that would go to Nick Diaz who trains with arguably the P4P 3rd best boxer in the world, Andre Ward

GSP isn't the best bjj guy in his division, that would go to Damien Maia.

What GSP does great is set an amazing game plan. He won't let Maia get his BJJ game going, he wont let koscheck get his wrestling game going, and he wont let diaz get his boxing game going.

That to me, is what makes Silva the better all around fighter. I highly doubt we'll see GSP stand toe to toe with Carlos Condit, the way Silva did with Belfort. I doubt we'll see GSP try and take on Maia in a BJJ expo, the way Silva did with Lutter.

I doubt we'll see GSP have another wrestling match with a guy like Koscheck again (and like i said earlier, Silva's wrestling is probably his weakest tool set.

Now this can be argued till we're blue in the face, but it's an opinionated topic, so agree to disagree
+1 on everything, except that JDS might be a better pure boxer than Anderson.
congeetime wrote: r.i.p bonnar. This will be worse than the forest griffin fight. I'm pretty sure silva will milk it though just to get the crowd cheering. I say, tko late 1st round
+1.. could you imagine saying this about ANYONE that's about to fight gsp? lmao.

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 9:47 am
by nineiron
here's gsp's bjj.. don't worry it's over in less than a minute.


Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 9:57 am
by nineiron
guys that could beat gsp before and now:

- Nick Diaz
- Nate Marquardt
- Damien Maia

these guys will NEVER get title shots as long as the ufc's "golden boy" gsp has the belt.

only their golden boy gets to defend their title against midgets that get a title shot from winning a reality show. and that back fired on them so they're gonna employ the gsp strategy and "play it safe" from now on. lmao.

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 11:10 am
by nineiron
question for the gsp fans out there..

who has gsp fought that isn't one dimensional OR a lightweight?

Fitch is probably the only one. but he doesn't excel at anything (except maybe cardio) so that doesn't really count.

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 2:10 pm
by VCR
nineiron wrote: here's gsp's bjj.. don't worry it's over in less than a minute.

dude, at that time of that match in 2005, gsp, according to a google search was a purple belt going against a black belt.

If you're going to play that youtube game, here's the Spider's sub defense in an actual MMA fight:


Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 2:20 pm
by VCR
nineiron wrote: guys that could beat gsp before and now:

- Nick Diaz
- Nate Marquardt
- Damien Maia

these guys will NEVER get title shots as long as the ufc's "golden boy" gsp has the belt.

only their golden boy gets to defend their title against midgets that get a title shot from winning a reality show. and that back fired on them so they're gonna employ the gsp strategy and "play it safe" from now on. lmao.
dude, Diaz until recently wasn't even in contention for UFC WW title, moving to strikeforce after losing to fighters GSP has beaten. He had his chance at a title shot against GSP but due to his own actions lost it, and was given another chance to be the number one contender but lost to Condit, who will be fighting GSP. The last two were MW that just had their first fights at WW (and not against top level fighters), so they will have to earn their shot at the the title by actually putting a string of victories against quality opponents.

Next in line for the WW title: Condit, then winner of Hendricks/Kampmann.

After that maybe Maia gets a chance if he defeats a potential top contender Diaz (if he decides to fight again) or Rory MacDonald (who is scheduled to fight Penn next).

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 2:44 pm
by phomp
nineiron wrote: here's gsp's bjj.. don't worry it's over in less than a minute.
Lol I do think that was a sweet armbar. That being said Leo is a legend in the BJJ world and that was at one of the highest level no gi events and just to be invited means you have to be pretty damn good. Jake Shields got 3rd that year in that division, submitting Leo. Not a lot of people know that Leo fights in MMA now, not a big name to a regular mma fan, he just beat Mark Holst who is Canadian and had 2 fights in the UFC (losses).

I guess Shields is not in the 170 division any more but Maia x Shields could have been a cool grappling match, hell, I'd like to see it in straight grappling.

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 4:31 pm
by VCR
phomp wrote: Lol I do think that was a sweet armbar. That being said Leo is a legend in the BJJ world and that was at one of the highest level no gi events and just to be invited means you have to be pretty damn good. Jake Shields got 3rd that year in that division, submitting Leo. Not a lot of people know that Leo fights in MMA now, not a big name to a regular mma fan, he just beat Mark Holst who is Canadian and had 2 fights in the UFC (losses).

I guess Shields is not in the 170 division any more but Maia x Shields could have been a cool grappling match, hell, I'd like to see it in straight grappling.
Yes, it's kinda pointless to go back 6-7 years. The argument was who was the better "all around" fighter right now. None of the opponents GSP has faced has been able to impose their "one dimension" on him, while we saw Silva being dominated in wrestling in his recent mactches with Sonnen who is essentially "one dimensional" which aided in him outstriking the best striker in mma in their first match. That why, imo, GSP has shown to be the better "all around" fighter.

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 4:34 pm
by VCR
nineiron wrote: question for the gsp fans out there..

who has gsp fought that isn't one dimensional OR a lightweight?

Fitch is probably the only one. but he doesn't excel at anything (except maybe cardio) so that doesn't really count.
question for you, dude ......... who has gsp fought in his six consecutive successful title defenses that didn't deserve their title shot at the time of their matches?

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 4:46 pm
by VCR
nineiron wrote: Maia demonstrated better stand up than gsp when he fought Silva.

"negates his striking superiority" <--- is this just another way to say "lay'n'pray"?
dude, Maia landed 10 of 52, 19% of his significant strikes against Silva.
Silva landed 61 of 111 55% of his significant strikes against Maia.

http://hosteddb.fightmetric.com/fights/index/2749

lol, that's a poor demonstration of stand up by Maia and you!

btw, Maia was ZERO for thirteen in his TD attempts against Silva.


gsp would DEFINITELY try to keep the fight standing against Maia. he wouldn't dare take him down cuz we all know how fast gsp would tap if he got caught in ANYTHING. but while standing, Maia would bust him up.
lol, you're dreaming. When has Maia busted up anyone of decent quality?

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 4:55 pm
by Kris81
VCR wrote: Why would he wrestle when he was the superior striker? I think prior to the fight, he was training with Roach so it makes sense to utilize his training in striking. BTW, GSP had far more takedowns than Kos. If Kos was the "superior" wrestler, he would have taken the fight to the ground and avoid getting outstruck by almost a 10:1 ratio and getting a broken oribital bone in the process. Your observations make no sense based on the objective evidence.



The thing with Silva is that he has shown he is vulnerable to takedowns from an accomplished wrestler. What vulnerability has GSP shown lately?



Matt Hughes was still in his prime when they last fought in 2006. He was about 33 years old and a top contender in the WW division.



Well, I think GSP will be better off by going for submissions as it wasn't costly. The mistakes he made, he's unlikely to repeat them and it could be a useful learning experience, next time.



I don't think Askren's body of work (lack of top calibre competition) puts him in the discussion. My definition of being well rounded is being able to all aspects of MMA well. GSP has superior wrestling, cardio, fighting IQ, and is good in all other areas. Silva has superior striking, finishing ability, is good in almost all areas, but has shown a weakness in his TDD.




Well, you're not the only one with that opinion. But, I'm fine with the way GSP goes about his matches. From an entertainment standpoint, most people would like him to take more risks and have more of a "killer instinct" but I don't blame him for playing it safe. You only need to look at Sonnen to see why not playing it safe can be costly at the end of the match times two versus Silva.

Dude, you seem to argue everything with everything. I get it, you are a huge GSP fan, and think he's the best. I'm not a GSP fan because he's boring as hell. The point I was making earlier is Silva can beat most opponents at their own game, where as GSP takes advantage of their weaknesses. I could picture Silva getting into a dirty stand up battle with Stephen Bonner, but I don't see GSP getting into a dirty stand up battle with Diaz. That's the difference, plain & simple.


I agree, I don't blame GSP for playing it safe, he does what he has to do, BUT he has to accept he can't blame me & other fans for not liking the way he fights, or finding it entertaining in the least. Chris Lytle, Joe Lauzon, Pat Barry, BJ Penn, Donald Cerrone, Nick Diaz, Nate Diaz, etc aren't loved & respected because they win titles, they are loved & respected because people pay big money to watch two guys fight, and they go out there to fight. They fight for the fans, GSP fights for himself.

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 5:02 pm
by Kris81
VCR wrote: question for you, dude ......... who has gsp fought in his six consecutive successful title defenses that didn't deserve their title shot at the time of their matches?
Koscheck #2 (Daley, Anthony Johnson, Trigg), Hardy (Mike Swick, Rory Markham, Marcus Davis), Alves (Koscheck on 1 week notice, Overweight vs Hughes, Karo Parisian) , Penn. (A lightweight) That is 4 of the 6.

In brackets i put his opponents last 3 victories. None of those guys were title contenders, or had an impressive record outside of Alves, and clearly Alves' opponents had issues of their own.


Meanwhile, Anderson Silva has beat almost EVERYONE in the middleweight division, including a former champ in the light heavyweight division. I don't see GSP challenging Rich Franklin to a fight at 185 anytime soon.

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 5:18 pm
by VCR
Kris81 wrote: Koscheck #2 (Daley, Anthony Johnson, Trigg), Hardy (Mike Swick, Rory Markham, Marcus Davis), Alves (Koscheck on 1 week notice, Overweight vs Hughes, Karo Parisian) , Penn. (A lightweight) That is 4 of the 6.

In brackets i put his opponents last 3 victories. None of those guys were title contenders, or had an impressive record outside of Alves, and clearly Alves' opponents had issues of their own.
In lieu of those opponents he faced, who would have been clearly more deserving instead? Who, in your opinion was more deserving, and robbed at a chance to face GSP at the time of those defenses?

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 6:03 pm
by Kris81
VCR wrote: In lieu of those opponents he faced, who would have been clearly more deserving instead? Who, in your opinion was more deserving, and robbed at a chance to face GSP at the time of those defenses?
No one, because the Welterweight division is weak. Your toughest tests for GSP are probably Johnny Hendricks, Carlos Condit, and Erick Silva. The welterweight division always has been, and always will be the weakest.

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 6:25 pm
by VCR
Kris81 wrote: No one, because the Welterweight division is weak. Your toughest tests for GSP are probably Johnny Hendricks, Carlos Condit, and Erick Silva. The welterweight division always has been, and always will be the weakest.
Do you mean weak as in the one that is least likely to have a title change? If so, I would say so with GSP being so ahead of his competition. His serious ACL injury and how he recovers from it is the x-factor on whether this will continue. But the fact that GSP has dominated the WW and was or is ahead of his competition shouldn't make it sound like there is a lack of depth in the division compared to the other weight classes.

BTW, if you think of WW being the weakest in terms of talent and depth in the UFC, then your opinion is in the minority I think. While searching for third party opinions, I found this thread where WW ranks highly in terms of "strongest to weakest" by most people who had an opinion:

http://www.tapology.com/forum/open/278918

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 7:56 pm
by Kris81
VCR wrote: Do you mean weak as in the one that is least likely to have a title change? If so, I would say so with GSP being so ahead of his competition. His serious ACL injury and how he recovers from it is the x-factor on whether this will continue. But the fact that GSP has dominated the WW and was or is ahead of his competition shouldn't make it sound like there is a lack of depth in the division compared to the other weight classes.

BTW, if you think of WW being the weakest in terms of talent and depth in the UFC, then your opinion is in the minority I think. While searching for third party opinions, I found this thread where WW ranks highly in terms of "strongest to weakest" by most people who had an opinion:

http://www.tapology.com/forum/open/278918
1. yes, weakest by the lack of depth. When beating Marcus davis, Karo Parisian, Josh Koshceck on 1 week notice after he fought someone 2 weeks before, and Anthony Johnson gets you a title shot, there is a problem.
2. I refuse to take that link you posted seriously, due to the fact that "The Rock" is posting wrestling quotes in there.
3. In my personal opinion, as i've stated before 155 is the toughest division, followed by 145 & 135. They're the deepest world wide with the most competitors. Regularly you have 170 guys drop to 155 and end up being bigger/stronger than most others. 145 has guys from up & down. After those i'd say Light Heavyweight. That division is deep everywhere you look. Jones dominates, but you've got a ton of other guys there who could be champions any day of the week. Then i'd have the Middleweight division, which much like the LW division looks weaker because of their champion. But you've got guys who run out of that division and go up or down because they dont' want to fight a champ.

bottom line, in my opinion the WW ranks are:

1. GSP
2. Koscheck
3. Erick Silva
4. Condit
5. Hendricks

I think if you had offered Koscheck a title shot if he beat Hendricks, he would have destroyed him. But he's had too many now, and won't get another one. Koscheck can easily beat every other guy in that division, in my opinion. His wrestling is that good. I think Condit will beat GSP (personal fan bias), but if he doesn't, Erick Silva will take him out.

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 7:57 pm
by Kris81
Just to add, and I don't say this to seem egotistical, or an elitist, or degrade you, but i've seen earlier you post stats & links to numbers & what not. I don't bother with that, I base my opinions on watching the fights. I think i've seen every UFC fight they've had (since they started airing prelims), every Strikeforce main card event, and most pride/bellator events that have been done. I take more into account than just punches landed, or kicks landed. It's not boxing, it's MMA.

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 9:06 pm
by nineiron
Kris81 wrote: Dude, you seem to argue everything with everything. I get it, you are a huge GSP fan, and think he's the best. I'm not a GSP fan because he's boring as hell. The point I was making earlier is Silva can beat most opponents at their own game, where as GSP takes advantage of their weaknesses. I could picture Silva getting into a dirty stand up battle with Stephen Bonner, but I don't see GSP getting into a dirty stand up battle with Diaz. That's the difference, plain & simple.


I agree, I don't blame GSP for playing it safe, he does what he has to do, BUT he has to accept he can't blame me & other fans for not liking the way he fights, or finding it entertaining in the least. Chris Lytle, Joe Lauzon, Pat Barry, BJ Penn, Donald Cerrone, Nick Diaz, Nate Diaz, etc aren't loved & respected because they win titles, they are loved & respected because people pay big money to watch two guys fight, and they go out there to fight. They fight for the fans, GSP fights for himself.
+1

the worst part is that the gsp fans have to throw out things like "he's the most well rounded" or "most dominant" champion because they can't say that he's the most exciting or most talented. then they start spewing out these ***** stats and stuff like "he hasn't lost a round in blah blah blah".

they'll even tell you that they find his fights exciting.. lmao.

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 9:58 pm
by VCR
Kris81 wrote: 1. yes, weakest by the lack of depth. When beating Marcus davis, Karo Parisian, Josh Koshceck on 1 week notice after he fought someone 2 weeks before, and Anthony Johnson gets you a title shot, there is a problem.
How does this compare to the title defenses in the other weight divisions? Did you do an in depth analysis on them when you came to this conclusion?
2. I refuse to take that link you posted seriously, due to the fact that "The Rock" is posting wrestling quotes in there.
That's just one link, I googled. The purpose was to see if other mma watchers, the average joe shared the same opinion of yours.

Here is another:

http://www.mmamania.com/2011/6/15/22246 ... ort-of-mma

And here's an op-ed from that claims that LHW is the "weakest" division, while taking a shot at the MW for being that way in the past.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/7/31/32 ... title-shot

What's your take on the writer's opinion?

I don't think your opinion is shared by the majority of mma fans.
3. In my personal opinion, as i've stated before 155 is the toughest division, followed by 145 & 135. They're the deepest world wide with the most competitors. Regularly you have 170 guys drop to 155 and end up being bigger/stronger than most others. 145 has guys from up & down. After those i'd say Light Heavyweight. That division is deep everywhere you look. Jones dominates, but you've got a ton of other guys there who could be champions any day of the week. Then i'd have the Middleweight division, which much like the LW division looks weaker because of their champion. But you've got guys who run out of that division and go up or down because they dont' want to fight a champ.

In terms of competitive fights, I would say the HW division is the weakest. Due to the lack of depth. The WW and LW are within the range of the average male, therefore the depth in terms of talent should be among the highest. That's just speaking logically.

Re: The Official UFC & MMA thread: UFC 202: Diaz vs McGregor 2 - August 20th

Posted: Sep 13th, 2012 10:05 pm
by VCR
Kris81 wrote: Just to add, and I don't say this to seem egotistical, or an elitist, or degrade you, but i've seen earlier you post stats & links to numbers & what not. I don't bother with that, I base my opinions on watching the fights. I think i've seen every UFC fight they've had (since they started airing prelims), every Strikeforce main card event, and most pride/bellator events that have been done. I take more into account than just punches landed, or kicks landed. It's not boxing, it's MMA.
Just to add, I don't want this to come across as patronizing but when you wrote:
Kris81 wrote: GSP isn't even the best wrestler in his division (Koscheck was outwrestling him in their last fight, so he moved to the jab)
It was probably one of the most comical observations I've read here. Completely illogical. Seriously, I was wondering what match were you watching? Was it in an alternate universe or something? lol.

If Kos was actually outwrestling him, he would NOT have been outstruck by an almost 10:1 ratio and have his orbital bone broken! How does being taking down four times as much in that fight, in addition to getting your face smashed in, show he was "outwrestling him?" lol.