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Mar 21, 2004
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Mintmaster wrote: Did you forget the first round of Sonnen-Silva II? Chael mounted Silva, and who else has he mounted? Maybe Stann? Chael isn't some BJJ whiz; meanwhile, GSP is the best guard passer in the sport.

The usual argument for Silva creaming Silva goes like this: Each round starts on the feet, so Silva will eventually KO GSP with his superior striking.

Here's what the evidence shows: In seven rounds against Chael, Silva was taken down six times. Not once did Silva drop him during the takedown attempt.

One win came from Chael leaning back on his @ss, swinging wildly, and letting Silva grab his wrist. Complete BJJ foolishness that's impossible for GSP to do. The other win came from Chael throwing the most hilarious spinning backfist in MMA history, landing on his a$s, and finally sitting there like Brock instead of pulling guard or getting up. After the first fight, I thought Silva was just unprepared, or that the injury excuse was real. Then the second fight came, and started exactly the same way, and Silva was dominated even more in that round than before. It's a repeatable flaw.

GSP is faster than Chael, smarter, and disguises his takedowns better with transitions. Is he as strong? No, but he's strong enough. Add to that WAY better striking offense and especially defense, and none of the single-digit fight-IQ of Chael, and you have a guy with a solid chance to win.

Would I bet on GSP with even odds? No. But at +200? Hell yes.
Best guard passer in the sport? LOL. I think GSP is awesome but is such a far stretch to say he is the best guard passer in the sport. He did not even pass the half guard of Condit when he had Condit fully flattened out in half and had cross face control (which is the absolute most dominate position you can have in half guard). He had it so many times and did not pass it (or did he once out of how many times?), and it is not like Condit has even close to top level guard. He was able to beat up Penn and started passing once he had him beat up and tired, impressive but other than that display, what other one could you give that makes the argument he is the best guard passer in the sport. What I think he has is an awesome ability to keep a guy on the mat, an ability to put damage down while in closed guard while avoiding submissions, and nice control. If he was so great at passing he would not spend so much time in closed guard or half guard. If he is getting past and put back in the guard, it is pointless to really pass in the first place then - sure the passing is great, but the control must be lacking and passing is pretty useless if you can not control past it. a-la the fight we just saw on the weekend.

My argument isn't that it starts on the feet an it means that Silva will KO GSP because of that. My argument is that GSP sets up takedown's much better but differently than traditional wrestlers like Sonnen and Henderson. While I think it makes him more successful at them it leaves more openings. Like you said, he disguises takedowns better than Sonnen with transitions, what are those transitions? They are usually strikes to a takedown (which he does beautifully). I keep hearing this notion that because Chael took down Anderson over and over that GSP will simply do the exact same. Maybe he will, but we will have to see, they preform takedowns a lot differently and will the style that GSP uses be effective against Anderson? Will he try to just mimic Chael?

It doesn't matter to me that Silva did not drop Chael on takedown attempts because Chael does not set them up the same way, and frankly, I believe that Sonnen is harder to knock down than GSP is (once he gets hit). If GSP tries to set up his takedowns with strikes and a combo, I think he is more likely to get put down than Chael was by simply shooting from far out and grinding out the takedown. I think GSP needs the takedown a lot more desperately than Sonnen did, not because GSP does not have better striking than Sonnen but because GSP has not shown that he has some large ability to take punishment from heavy hitters and Sonnen has on the feet shown that he can really take heavy shots.

I agree, GSP has a shot at taking him down and laying punishment down in closed guard, I just think he is more likely to get knocked out or down on the feet than Sonnen was and that is more likely to happen on the feet because of his style of takedowns. Maybe he will have a different strategy for his takedowns. GSP has better striking offense than Sonnen, but I am guessing he is less likely to even want to use it. His ability to not get hit is better than Sonnen's, what about the ability to take a heavy shot?

I am not saying it is impossible, I think the chances are not great based on a style match up. I don't know what percentage or number I would put to it, doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, we both agree that chances are he is not winning ;)
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Feb 19, 2008
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phomp wrote: Best guard passer in the sport? LOL. I think GSP is awesome but is such a far stretch to say he is the best guard passer in the sport. He did not even pass the half guard of Condit when he had Condit fully flattened out in half and had cross face control (which is the absolute most dominate position you can have in half guard). He had it so many times and did not pass it (or did he once out of how many times?), and it is not like Condit has even close to top level guard. He was able to beat up Penn and started passing once he had him beat up and tired, impressive but other than that display, what other one could you give that makes the argument he is the best guard passer in the sport. What I think he has is an awesome ability to keep a guy on the mat, an ability to put damage down while in closed guard while avoiding submissions, and nice control. If he was so great at passing he would not spend so much time in closed guard or half guard. If he is getting past and put back in the guard, it is pointless to really pass in the first place then - sure the passing is great, but the control must be lacking and passing is pretty useless if you can not control past it. a-la the fight we just saw on the weekend.

My argument isn't that it starts on the feet an it means that Silva will KO GSP because of that. My argument is that GSP sets up takedown's much better but differently than traditional wrestlers like Sonnen and Henderson. While I think it makes him more successful at them it leaves more openings. Like you said, he disguises takedowns better than Sonnen with transitions, what are those transitions? They are usually strikes to a takedown (which he does beautifully). I keep hearing this notion that because Chael took down Anderson over and over that GSP will simply do the exact same. Maybe he will, but we will have to see, they preform takedowns a lot differently and will the style that GSP uses be effective against Anderson? Will he try to just mimic Chael?

It doesn't matter to me that Silva did not drop Chael on takedown attempts because Chael does not set them up the same way, and frankly, I believe that Sonnen is harder to knock down than GSP is (once he gets hit). If GSP tries to set up his takedowns with strikes and a combo, I think he is more likely to get put down than Chael was by simply shooting from far out and grinding out the takedown. I think GSP needs the takedown a lot more desperately than Sonnen did, not because GSP does not have better striking than Sonnen but because GSP has not shown that he has some large ability to take punishment from heavy hitters and Sonnen has on the feet shown that he can really take heavy shots.

I agree, GSP has a shot at taking him down and laying punishment down in closed guard, I just think he is more likely to get knocked out or down on the feet than Sonnen was and that is more likely to happen on the feet because of his style of takedowns. Maybe he will have a different strategy for his takedowns. GSP has better striking offense than Sonnen, but I am guessing he is less likely to even want to use it. His ability to not get hit is better than Sonnen's, what about the ability to take a heavy shot?

I am not saying it is impossible, I think the chances are not great based on a style match up. I don't know what percentage or number I would put to it, doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, we both agree that chances are he is not winning ;)


the main reason for that being that in many ways half guard is a far better position than side control. You can do more damage and there's less of a chance at the person rolling to espace
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Feb 8, 2005
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ufc 154 didn't do as well as nuthuggers like VCR thought it would. this is from mmapayout.com:

[QUOTE]As we reported last night, the attendance and gate were lower than its last visit to Montreal in December of 2010 when GSP defended his title against Josh Koscheck. UFC 154 had 17,249 in attendance with a gate of $3.1 million. In 2010, the Belle Centre had 23,152 in attendance for a gate of $4.6 million.
There were indications from several Canadian news outlets that ticket sales were slower than usual but those reports were rebuffed. It does appear that Saturday night’s event was not a sellout and will come up short in comparison to 2010 in terms of gate.[/QUOTE]

can't find the ppv numbers yet, but i'd expect it to be lower than what the gsp nuthuggers (VCR) thought it would be considering he couldn't even sell out in his home town.
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Jimboski wrote: +1 on Jones vs Silva, More exciting IMO. Two unorthodox fighters will guarantee a good fight.
Silva won't agree to that unless GSP absolutely refuses a "superfight."
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VCR wrote: The speculation is that it will be fought at a catchweight between 177-178 lbs ... At fight time, however, Silva will likely be 20+ lbs heavier.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/mma/2012/11/19/ ... uperfight/
While UFC president Dana White is adamant that he can and will put the superfight together, the boss definitely has his work cut out for him. The question of weight will be the most difficult one to answer, for Team GSP is fairly adamant that Anderson drop down as low as he can, to make it the match up as fair as possible. At the UFC 154 post-fight press conference, St-Pierre reminded everyone that it was not that long ago that Anderson competed at 168 lbs in Japan, so he believes his potential adversary can likely make the drop with relative ease.

On the flip side, Silva's camp has already gone public, verbally agreeing to meet in the middle (178 lbs) but GSP's camp still believes the size difference on fight night would still be immense. Silva's natural weight is in and around 220 lbs. At one point during one of his visits to the Sportsnet studios in late 2008 / early 2009, he was a monstrous 230 lbs. Considering Georges walks around at 193 lbs, there is a potential of a 36 lbs difference between the two athletes. While it will likely be closer to 20 lbs, the difference is still magnified considering what's at risk.
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phomp wrote: Best guard passer in the sport? LOL. I think GSP is awesome but is such a far stretch to say he is the best guard passer in the sport.
Look at Rener Gracie gush over GSP's guard passing and talk about how nobody else does it as well:


But if you think someone else is better, then name him. Googling shows me that most people agree with me.
He did not even pass the half guard of Condit when he had Condit fully flattened out in half and had cross face control (which is the absolute most dominate position you can have in half guard).
It's dominant, but you can't pass to side/mount while your legs are triangling your opponent's to keep him flat. Every time GSP got to half guard and tried to go to side mount, Condit shrimped his way back to guard. Condit is no joke on the ground.
it is not like Condit has even close to top level guard.
Says who? Name five guys in the entire sport who are clearly better at scrambling from the bottom. He's at the very top of the heap.
While I think it makes him more successful at them it leaves more openings.
I really don't agree at all. Traditional wrestling, as you call it, leaves you far more open to knees and chokes. Marquardt landed both on Sonnen in his loss, but nobody even manages to get off a meaningful attempt against GSP. You can bet that Condit would have tried to knee GSP if he could, just like he did to DHK, but GSP times it too well. The style difference between the takedowns of GSP and Sonnen is a positive point in GSP's favour, not negative.
If GSP tries to set up his takedowns with strikes and a combo, I think he is more likely to get put down than Chael was by simply shooting from far out and grinding out the takedown.
See, this makes no sense. When you shoot from far away, you make it easier to sprawl against, move out of the way, or fire a killer strike like a knee (e.g. Aldo on Mendes).
I agree, GSP has a shot at taking him down and laying punishment down in closed guard, I just think he is more likely to get knocked out or down on the feet than Sonnen was and that is more likely to happen on the feet because of his style of takedowns.
I do agree that GSP probably can't take the same punishment as Sonnen, but that's why he has a maybe 45% chance of winning instead of the 75%+ that a smart Sonnen with striking ability would have. However, don't forget that GSP has the best striking defense in the UFC. His opponents miss something like 95% of their power strikes to GSP's head. Condit's kick was the first damaging strike to connect in 5+ years, and it was probably ring rust.

Sure, 45% technically means I think he'll lose, but that's a far cry from the sure win that most people are giving Silva. Give me +200 odds (i.e. if GSP wins you pay me $200, if he loses I pay you $100) and I take it in a heartbeat.
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Feb 8, 2005
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gsp should just agree to the catchweight. at least he won't lose his belt.
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Sportsnet is just speculating and not doing real research. Walk around weight has little to do with in-cage weight. Rampage once walked around over 250. Rumble was over 230.

Silva's trainer said that he's around 198 lbs after rehydrating. In the UFC 112 Countdown video, Silva said he was 192 two weeks before the fight. Major dehydration happens a few days before weigh in, so that's an indication of in-cage mass.

Personally, I think GSP's camp is making a mistake by asking for it to be at 170. Silva isn't going to be weaker at 170 or fight differently, because he was never a massive weight cutter at 185. Thiago Alves was 198 in the cage during his last fight, so Silva can go on the same Dolce diet and do the same. GSP should either forget about the fight or do it at 185, where the reward to his legacy is much better. If he beats Silva at 185, he'll be the greatest P4P fighter in history, and if he loses, no big deal. On the other hand, if he wins at 170, then there's an excuse of a weakened Silva, and if he loses, he no longer the best WW on the planet (even if it's a non-title fight).
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phomp wrote: Being free today I went to a gym to train and they told me the mats were closed and classes were cancelled for a movie shoot. I decided to work out a bit and I was washing my hands and Anderson Silva popped up beside me to wash his hands. Also got to meet Lyoto Machida, both of them very briefly. They are filming a movie here in Toronto. My buddy who trains in muay thai was asked to be in one scene and got to spar with Anderson a bit. I noticed quite the solid cut over my buddies eye but he didn't give a s***, he was on cloud nine after sparring and getting his ***** kicked by Anderson.
That's an awesome story! Thanks for sharing.
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Mintmaster wrote: Sportsnet is just speculating and not doing real research. Walk around weight has little to do with in-cage weight. Rampage once walked around over 250. Rumble was over 230.

Silva's trainer said that he's around 198 lbs after rehydrating. In the UFC 112 Countdown video, Silva said he was 192 two weeks before the fight. Major dehydration happens a few days before weigh in, so that's an indication of in-cage mass.
Yeah, that's a good point you're making. The UFC is providing more in fight stats. I think they should also weigh the fighters just prior entering the cage, when the fighters are going through their pre-fight inspection. It would be particularly interesting to know this info .... especially if we do have a superfight between the Spider and GSP.
Personally, I think GSP's camp is making a mistake by asking for it to be at 170. Silva isn't going to be weaker at 170 or fight differently, because he was never a massive weight cutter at 185. Thiago Alves was 198 in the cage during his last fight, so Silva can go on the same Dolce diet and do the same. GSP should either forget about the fight or do it at 185, where the reward to his legacy is much better. If he beats Silva at 185, he'll be the greatest P4P fighter in history, and if he loses, no big deal. On the other hand, if he wins at 170, then there's an excuse of a weakened Silva, and if he loses, he no longer the best WW on the planet (even if it's a non-title fight).
I think GSP's camp should try to gain every advantage he can. An extra 8 lbs cut from the 178 lbs. compromise could be a difference maker. Depending on how the fight turns out, if GSP loses .... it can be a big deal. Especially if he suffers a devastating knockout which could shorten his career. A TKO/KO is probably the most likely scenario for a Spider victory, while a Five Round UD is the most likely scenerio for a GSP win.

If the fights @ 170 lbs. it should be a fight for the title. Similarly if the fights @ 185 lbs. the title should be a title fight.

If it's a 178 lbs catch weight fight, and The Spider misses it, the penalty should be that the MW title should be on the line, in addition to the financial penalties IMO .....
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Viper98 wrote: thread title really shouldn't be UFC 155

the next and biggest event of the year is UFC on Fox 5
I agree, that the main card on paper is the most interesting and has collectively greatest depth of all the events this year. The under card not so much.
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the banning of kicking/kneeing to a "grounded" opponent (i don't know how having 1 finger on the mat counts as being 'grounded', but whatever) and punching to the back of the head are rules that were put in place to give the wrestler an advantage.

Cote lost that fight. Sakara was robbed.

all you "hugging" lovers always say "it's up to the opponent to learn take down defense". well, i say, "it's up to the opponent to not put themselves in a situation to get kicked in the head while they're down and to not expose the back of their head for too long".

they better change the rules or they're gonna have to change the meaning of ufc to "ultimate f***ing championships"

[IMG]http://cdn2.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus ... _730.0.jpg[/IMG]
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My view on superfights:

If you hate GSP then you want GSP VS Silva
If you hate Silva then you want Silva vs Bones
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macro6 wrote: My view on superfights:

If you hate GSP then you want GSP VS Silva
If you hate Silva then you want Silva vs Bones
gsp vs Silva won't even be competitive. not really interested in seeing this, except that it'll shut all the gsp fans up.

Silva vs Jones is the fight i wanna see.

but i know what you mean. there's WAY too much of this "i like this fighter and i hate this fighter". it's starting to turn into the WWE.

i like to watch fighters that are confident in their own skills and fight that way. i don't like to watch fighters who grind out decision wins. simple as that.
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nineiron wrote: the banning of kicking/kneeing to a "grounded" opponent (i don't know how having 1 finger on the mat counts as being 'grounded', but whatever) and punching to the back of the head are rules that were put in place to give the wrestler an advantage.

Cote lost that fight. Sakara was robbed.

all you "hugging" lovers always say "it's up to the opponent to learn take down defense". well, i say, "it's up to the opponent to not put themselves in a situation to get kicked in the head while they're down and to not expose the back of their head for too long".

they better change the rules or they're gonna have to change the meaning of ufc to "ultimate f***ing championships"
I don't know if they placed those rules in to give the wrestler the advantage or not, they have had the rule for quite a while but I do agree that the outcome of them is that they do help the wrestler.

Sure, in the rules that you would like to see, and to be honest most people would like to see, Cote should have lost. But in the rules of the UFC, the rules that both these guys signed up for, Sakara got DQ'ed fair and square. If the only reason that the rules mentioned are in place is to "give the wrestler an advantage" then I would most certainly agree that they should be changed, if there is more to it than that (I suspect for punches to the back of the head there is, not sure the reasoning for inability to kick a ground opponent - Pride allowed it - no real issues) then maybe it can not be changed.

I enjoy grappling the most but I agree with you. It should be up to the opponent to not expose themselves to get kicked/kneed in the head and not expose the back of the head for too long. Wrestlers are going to take advantage of this, of course. I don't blame them at all, and if the rules were to change they would have to adapt. It is always going to be up to the opponent to defend a take down, regardless of the rules. The current rules just tend to allow for a bit of a safety net against.

Thanks for the high school humor, it is awesome.
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nineiron wrote: ufc 154 only did 980,000 buys on the free prelims. ufc 148 did TWICE that much, 1.8 million, on the free live prelims.
dude, those are VIEWERS not "buys" ...... How can you "buy" something that is FREE? :facepalm:
when the ppv numbers come out, we'll see that gsp is NOT the biggest draw in the ufc.
dude, the three biggest draws in the UFC currently are GSP, The Spider and JBJ. You can add Sonnen as a fourth but he needs to be matched up against a champion i.e. The Spider to be a main event caliber draw.

We will had three consecutive PPVs, where the champ at the LHW, MW and then WW carry a card as the headliner on their own. That's a better idea to gauge how they can on their own carry a card in terms of buyrates.

JBJ - UFC 152: appox. 450,000 buys
Silva - UFC 153: est. PPV buys: appox. 410,000 buys
GSP - UFC 154: ???

This will be the first apples to apples comparison between the three champs as they largely carried the event on their own. UFC 154 will have to exceed those numbers for GSP to be legitimately referred to as their current "biggest draw."
dude, the source you quoted also wrote the following:
But the difference between this and the shows since is UFC 154 featured the return of Georges St-Pierre, the company's biggest drawing card. In theory, with more people expected to be buying the pay-per-view, more would be home watching the prelims. Yet, that didn't happen here. The numbers for the prelims would make sense to correlate with the ups and downs of pay-per-view numbers, but very often that is not the case. It is too early to get pay-per-view numbers but expectations going in were for the show to be among the biggest of the year.
lol .....
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nineiron wrote: the banning of kicking/kneeing to a "grounded" opponent (i don't know how having 1 finger on the mat counts as being 'grounded', but whatever) and punching to the back of the head are rules that were put in place to give the wrestler an advantage.

Cote lost that fight. Sakara was robbed.

[IMG]http://cdn2.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus ... _730.0.jpg[/IMG]
lol ..... @ the example you use ....Cote doesn't come from a "wrestling" background ............. he's a striker .... nor does he typically use takedowns as an offensive tactic.
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phomp wrote: I don't know if they placed those rules in to give the wrestler the advantage or not, they have had the rule for quite a while but I do agree that the outcome of them is that they do help the wrestler.
I think the rule is in place because it's one of the weak spots in the human body where you can suffer severe injury through regular strikes compared to strikes to the rest of the body. Just like strikes to the groin. Or eye pokes. Do you think those strikes should be legal?
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^^ maybe they should wear a cup on the back of their head if it's a "weak spot"

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