Off Topic

Ontario is going to find out if guaranteed minimum income will ease poverty.

  • Last Updated:
  • Aug 22nd, 2017 9:01 pm
Tags:
None
[OP]
Deal Expert
User avatar
Dec 7, 2012
26244 posts
6074 upvotes
GTHA

Ontario is going to find out if guaranteed minimum income will ease poverty.

from http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/03/13 ... 51076.html
TORONTO — A single paragraph buried in the Ontario budget could mean big changes in the lives of some of the province's most impoverished residents by giving them a guaranteed minimum income.

Last month's provincial budget promised a pilot project to test "that a basic income could build on the success of minimum wage policies and increases in child benefits by providing more consistent and predictable support."

The concept is on the radar of the federal Liberals, too — a Liberal-dominated parliamentary committee called on the Trudeau government to explore the concept of guaranteeing people a minimum income in a pre-budget report tabled Friday.

Charles Sousa, Ontario's finance minister, said the province has not decided which community will be the test site for a basic income guarantee.

"It's something that many people seem to have an interest in us testing out, so we're looking at something in the fall," he said. "Other jurisdictions are using it, and I want to see if it makes sense for us, so it's important for us to pilot, to test it out, and see what happens."

Proponents say a guaranteed minimum income, which would see families living below the poverty line topped up to a set level, would be more efficient and less costly than administering the existing series of social programs that help low-income residents.

They also say poverty is one of the biggest determinants of health, and a guaranteed minimum income could mean reduced health-care costs.

"Poverty costs us all. It expands health-care costs, policing burdens and depresses the economy," Sen. Art Eggleton said last month as he called for a national pilot project of a basic income guarantee.

About nine per cent of Canadians live in poverty, but the numbers are much higher for single mothers and indigenous communities.

If Ontario's basic income pilot project is designed correctly, it could help eliminate some of the "perverse incentives" that institutionalize poverty, said Danielle Martin, vice president of Women's College Hospital in Toronto.

"We want to design programs that will give people who need it income security, but will not discourage them from entering the workforce," said Martin.

"And it's entirely possible, if we design this pilot right, that we can actually have a major impact on the health outcomes for some of the most vulnerable people in the province, and that can save tremendous amounts of money in the health-care system down the road."

Canada experimented with a guaranteed minimum income in Dauphin, Manitoba in the early 1970s. The so-called Mincome project found it did not discourage people from working, except for two key groups: new mothers, and teenaged boys who opted to stay in school until graduation.

The Mincome project also found an 8.5 per cent reduction in hospital visits in Dauphin during the experiment, said Martin.

"People had fewer visits because of mental health problems," she said. "There were fewer low birth-weight babies, so very concrete and immediate impacts in terms of people's health."

The Income Security Advocacy Centre said care must be taken to ensure no one is worse off as a result of the Ontario pilot for a basic income guarantee.

People on social assistance in Ontario also get their prescription drugs and dental bills paid for, as well as help with child care, and they should not lose those benefits with a basic income guarantee, added Martin.

"It's called the welfare wall, a phenomenon where people, even if they could find part-time work or lower paying work — they're actually better off in some ways by staying on social assistance because of those other benefits," she said.

"For some people, that makes it basically impossible to get off of welfare."

People should not be concerned that a guaranteed minimum income would mean those on social assistance are suddenly living on easy street, said Eggleton.

"This wouldn't be the good life," he told the Senate. "It would provide a floor, a foundation that low-income people can then build upon for a better life."

Social programs should lift people out of poverty, not keep them there, and a basic income is a new approach that could work, added Eggleton.

"How we have dealt with poverty has failed," he said. "We need to test a different approach."


Old thread title and opening post..
Thunder Bay wants to be selected for Ontario’s Basic Income Pilot Project

from http://www.netnewsledger.com/2016/02/28 ... t-project/
729 replies
Deal Addict
User avatar
Nov 24, 2012
4817 posts
1263 upvotes
Space
Everything that's written is too vague. Why Thunder Bay? Lots of unemployed people on social services? Basic income seems like the same as welfare ( without the beauracracy ).
Deal Addict
Apr 9, 2010
2416 posts
552 upvotes
Montreal
It's definitely a good thing if it's around 1100$ per month. That's enough to have a roof over your head, afford food, transportation etc. If people want a better life, they'll have the means to do something to achieve their goals.

No one can live off social assistance, that's why we have so many beggars and homeless people in our cities.

Also, the reality is that people earning minimum wage or close to it feel like crap when 85%~ of their income goes towards living costs.

People end up getting various health issues because of depression or burning out working 2 jobs to meet ends. (Resulting in increased healthcare costs and longer wait times in hospitals.)

They can give low income workers (under 35k per year) a small incentive to do minimum wage jobs so there won't be a massive exodus as well.

Several problems solved.
Deal Addict
User avatar
Sep 16, 2012
3018 posts
298 upvotes
Mississauga
I fully support a basic income which of course would have to come with certain guidelines for inclusion in terms of the general population.
Deal Guru
User avatar
Dec 7, 2009
13397 posts
1223 upvotes
Basic minimum income is definitely needed. It has been adopted with success in many progressive countries.

Is Thunder Bay a good candidate for a pilot project to research the effects? I'm not so sure. In my opinion it's not homogeneous enough. While the need is certainly there, that's not the same as it being a good testing site. It has a large aboriginal population, a lack of well-paying jobs, and the cost of living is skewed by low real-estate but high food prices. I think we need a more vanilla testing centre.
In a perfect system, corporations would fear the government and the government would fear the people. - David Wong

Check out caRpetbomBer's picks in this thread.
Sr. Member
User avatar
Sep 15, 2010
594 posts
185 upvotes
Kawartha Lakes
the real estate is not actually low Syne...it has climbed because of the now larger aboriginal population that is moving in..driving up prices.
Deal Expert
User avatar
Oct 26, 2003
27059 posts
1731 upvotes
Winnipeg
why do we need another pilot project? it was tested before so why can't we draw conclusion from that?
4930k/32gb/256gb ssd/8tb hdd/win10pro/msi 290
bst/free stuff/btc/ether
Deal Addict
User avatar
Apr 30, 2005
1381 posts
144 upvotes
Toronto
basic income based on household income or individual income? say if a husband makes 250K a year and the non-working housewife still get the check?
Deal Guru
User avatar
Dec 7, 2009
13397 posts
1223 upvotes
forgetpwd wrote:
Feb 29th, 2016 12:24 am
basic income based on household income or individual income? say if a husband makes 250K a year and the non-working housewife still get the check?
Obviously it would be based on household income. Now that might not stop a common law couple from gaming it.
In a perfect system, corporations would fear the government and the government would fear the people. - David Wong

Check out caRpetbomBer's picks in this thread.
Deal Addict
User avatar
Apr 30, 2005
1381 posts
144 upvotes
Toronto
Syne wrote:
Feb 29th, 2016 12:39 am
Obviously it would be based on household income. Now that might not stop a common law couple from gaming it.
now that's getting interesting and tricky. any details of the rules of the game? I could not find it anywhere.
Deal Addict
Nov 24, 2013
4174 posts
1172 upvotes
Kingston, ON
The whole idea of basic income is that everyone gets it; it's not in itself means tested. Those with higher incomes "pay it back" through higher progressive taxation or higher VAT/GST/HST.
Deal Addict
Sep 7, 2004
1231 posts
232 upvotes
Toronto
So I wonder then if this scheme will be a universal basic income or a basic income granted to those households below the poverty line.

If it gets rid of the welfare system and they use those monies to fund the project then I'm fine with it as it won't increase taxes for the rest of us who work.

It'll be interesting to see if this will create disincentives for people to better themselves. I 've read a little about the pilot project in Dauphin Manitoba and how there was a slight reduction in the workforce but was attributed to people going back to school... I wonder in a city like Toronto how a basic income would work and what the results would look like.

I mean plenty of people who seem pretty content to stay on welfare. Giving them a basic income sans social services seems like it could be dangerous as there won't be any programs left to help teach them how to manage their cash-for-life cheques.
Deal Guru
User avatar
Feb 8, 2014
13478 posts
3358 upvotes
Toronto
I completely support a universal basic income, as we automate more jobs and export others abroad there is a surplus of workers to jobs. However we still have a societal hatred of the poor, and an envy of the rich, we support policies that demean and take advantage of the poor and policies that give welfare to the wealthy. Hence this is political suicide.
Soon our favourite reality denier will show up to tell us how this is going to ruin society because the poor have only themselves to blame for being exploited in a system designed to exploit them.
Lies, damned lies, statistics and alternative facts
Deal Expert
User avatar
Oct 26, 2003
27059 posts
1731 upvotes
Winnipeg
Syne wrote:
Feb 28th, 2016 11:28 pm
Basic minimum income is definitely needed. It has been adopted with success in many progressive countries.

Is Thunder Bay a good candidate for a pilot project to research the effects? I'm not so sure. In my opinion it's not homogeneous enough. While the need is certainly there, that's not the same as it being a good testing site. It has a large aboriginal population, a lack of well-paying jobs, and the cost of living is skewed by low real-estate but high food prices. I think we need a more vanilla testing centre.
free tuition and now this, so you want everyone to be like you and become a career student!?
4930k/32gb/256gb ssd/8tb hdd/win10pro/msi 290
bst/free stuff/btc/ether
Deal Addict
Nov 24, 2013
4174 posts
1172 upvotes
Kingston, ON
divx wrote:
Feb 29th, 2016 2:03 am
free tuition and now this, so you want everyone to be like you and become a career student!?
The other extreme to this is how government benefits for EI or welfare (Ontario Works) discourage finding things like on the books part time work. For full timers, either they're off or they're on, but if someone is on benefits and wants to work, to get their foot in, etc, EI rewards them by docking their EI pay based on what they earn. It influences human behaviour and leads to economic inefficiencies.

Likewise there's people working lower pay jobs because they felt they couldn't afford to go to school to specialize in the career they really wanted. This and the tuition changes could free them up to do so, and be more productive / contributory at the tail end of it.

There may be lazy bastards, but there's also people who never had an adequate chance to apply themselves.

Top