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Ontario is going to find out if guaranteed minimum income will ease poverty.

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  • Aug 22nd, 2017 9:01 pm
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Archanfel wrote:
Feb 17th, 2017 10:17 am
To scare people from committing crimes.
Depends on the country. In a lot, cops dont scare anyone, and generally are easily bribed. Not to mention, not armed heavily enough for some countries.

Policing works in well off societies.
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Buggy166 wrote:
Feb 17th, 2017 3:43 pm
Depends on the country. In a lot, cops dont scare anyone, and generally are easily bribed. Not to mention, not armed heavily enough for some countries.

Policing works in well off societies.
I'd think the opposite. Police tends to be scary in less liberal (usually poorer) countries (as long as the population is not armed like Afghanistan), but then they tend to be above the law.

The question is whether you can remove the incentive for crimes. It's hard to say. Even if you made sure everybody is fed (like in a prison), people would still do things for alcohol, smoke, drugs, sexes, etc.... (or even just better food). Therefore, I don't think minimum income works unless it can cover all the heart desires (which is unlimited), which would make us a communist Utopian. I don't see that happening any time soon.
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By his rough estimate, James Livingston has had between 50 and 60 jobs in his lifetime. He's been a construction worker, worked on an airport ground crew, sold men's clothing at Sears and been a door-to-door salesman.

These days, Livingston is a professor at Rutgers University. It's a fulfilling job at a prestigious institution. And he got there through hard work, dedication, and keeping his eye on the goal. Right?

Not if you ask him.

"I don't think I worked my way up," he said in an interview with Tapestry's Mary Hynes. "I think what happened was that I got very, very lucky."

...
...

How to achieve that? Livingston argues governments must begin moving towards a model of a universal basic income, where everyone is assigned a minimum annual income they would receive from the government, no matter how much they worked.

The idea has been tested successfully in the past, both in the United States and Canada, he said.

"We have empirical evidence that a subsidy to your income does not necessarily, or even meaningfully, affect your work ethic — what you want to do with your life," he said.
That is a good thing?????
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The Star trek model but I don't think we are there yet in term of the quality of our society.
insert witty comment
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Taxing a person's income is starting to make less sense because the productivity isn't always closely tied to an individual's labour. When a robot does your job and doesn't pay income tax for the resulting productivity then the same amount of wealth is generated into the system, but we lose the public revenue portion. We need to correct for that.
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Deal Fanatic
Aug 14, 2007
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If people get this whole guaranteed income thing then I should expect my income to go up as well, Why? Because if it happens then the cost of living will likely go up as well. Like when everyone cries and complains that minimum wage should be higher... well look what happens when it does go up, businesses pass on that extra cost to consumers just like with everything else.

In my opinion, instead of giving people free money, why not just lower our taxes by a good amount and leave it at that. My income tax bracket is 20.5%. Why not make it say 12%?
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XtremeModder wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 12:32 pm
If people get this whole guaranteed income thing then I should expect my income to go up as well, Why? Because if it happens then the cost of living will likely go up as well. Like when everyone cries and complains that minimum wage should be higher... well look what happens when it does go up, businesses pass on that extra cost to consumers just like with everything else.

In my opinion, instead of giving people free money, why not just lower our taxes by a good amount and leave it at that. My income tax bracket is 20.5%. Why not make it say 12%?
Um, no. The states that recently enacted $15/hr minimum wage have not seen increased prices.

Analysis of minimum wage laws

[..]

Lowering tax rates will not help the people that need it; they don't make enough to pay taxes.
Last edited by MrDisco on Mar 16th, 2017 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: unnecessary
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XtremeModder wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 12:32 pm
If people get this whole guaranteed income thing then I should expect my income to go up as well, Why? Because if it happens then the cost of living will likely go up as well. Like when everyone cries and complains that minimum wage should be higher... well look what happens when it does go up, businesses pass on that extra cost to consumers just like with everything else.

In my opinion, instead of giving people free money, why not just lower our taxes by a good amount and leave it at that. My income tax bracket is 20.5%. Why not make it say 12%?
you probably want to have basic income across the board, say, $1000/month for every single person regardless of age
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Beachdown wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 12:54 pm
Um, no. The states that recently enacted $15/hr minimum wage have not seen increased prices.

Analysis of minimum wage laws

[..]

Lowering tax rates will not help the people that need it; they don't make enough to pay taxes.
easy to set that price in certain places, it won't affect anything in new york city, san fran and fortmac, of course nothing will change if nobody gets paid less than $15 already.
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Syne wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 12:13 pm
Taxing a person's income is starting to make less sense because the productivity isn't always closely tied to an individual's labour. When a robot does your job and doesn't pay income tax for the resulting productivity then the same amount of wealth is generated into the system, but we lose the public revenue portion. We need to correct for that.
Well put. Today when a robot does labour the resulting income goes to the owner of that robot, whom the right wants to reduce the taxes for so they get a double income increase.
Lies, damned lies, statistics and alternative facts
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Quentin5 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 2:13 pm
Well put. Today when a robot does labour the resulting income goes to the owner of that robot, whom the right wants to reduce the taxes for so they get a double income increase.
tax can stay the same, we just need basic income for all
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I would say make it progressive. You makes less, you get more up to a limit. Scale it down according to your yearly income reported on your tax return. Cap it off at people making above 60-65K.
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divx wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 3:50 pm
tax can stay the same, we just need basic income for all
The money to pay for it money comes from taxing the rich who make money from the robots.
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XtremeModder wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 12:32 pm
If people get this whole guaranteed income thing then I should expect my income to go up as well, Why? Because if it happens then the cost of living will likely go up as well. Like when everyone cries and complains that minimum wage should be higher... well look what happens when it does go up, businesses pass on that extra cost to consumers just like with everything else.

In my opinion, instead of giving people free money, why not just lower our taxes by a good amount and leave it at that. My income tax bracket is 20.5%. Why not make it say 12%?
Because people won't work.

Manual labor will be dead. Unintellectual job has no future. Maybe not tomorrow or next year, but say 20 years.

Even if you don't pay tax, if your income was 0$, it's not a lot of money.

Intellectual people will need to pay for unskilled labor. They should be happy because 100 hundreds years ago, intellectual people were forced​ to work manual job they hated​ to get money and manual people didn't do shit to help them!
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XtremeModder wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 12:32 pm
If people get this whole guaranteed income thing then I should expect my income to go up as well, Why? Because if it happens then the cost of living will likely go up as well. Like when everyone cries and complains that minimum wage should be higher... well look what happens when it does go up, businesses pass on that extra cost to consumers just like with everything else.

In my opinion, instead of giving people free money, why not just lower our taxes by a good amount and leave it at that. My income tax bracket is 20.5%. Why not make it say 12%?
Well because like I said above, taxing your productivity isn't necessarily a good reflection of the wealth being generated into the system. It doesn't matter if we tax human labour at 10% or 90% if human labour isn't the thing generating wealth. I think it's time we start looking at a 'productivity tax' and start looking at it independent to what people are being compensated.
divx wrote:tax can stay the same, we just need basic income for all
I think the tax rate is a matter for debate, but see above. We can't really tax people if people aren't always the source of productivity. We need a more accurate way of measuring productive output. If you pay me $1,000 to build a robot and I pay tax on what you pay me, then that robot goes and produces a million bucks worth of human labour, then we have simply diverted wages and tax dollars into your pocket.
Last edited by Syne on Mar 16th, 2017 6:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
In a perfect system, corporations would fear the government and the government would fear the people. - David Wong

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