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Ontario is going to find out if guaranteed minimum income will ease poverty.

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  • Aug 22nd, 2017 9:01 pm
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Quentin5 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:00 pm
The money to pay for it money comes from taxing the rich who make money from the robots.
and we are already taxing them, hence no change
vonblock wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:16 pm
Because people won't work.

Manual labor will be dead. Unintellectual job has no future. Maybe not tomorrow or next year, but say 20 years.

Even if you don't pay tax, if your income was 0$, it's not a lot of money.

Intellectual people will need to pay for unskilled labor. They should be happy because 100 hundreds years ago, intellectual people were forced​ to work manual job they hated​ to get money and manual people didn't do shit to help them!
manual labor never paid well, even in the past, skilled labor won't be dead anytime soon. even in 100 years ago, we had merchants, stonemason, craftsman, etc. the way humans are going, we will eventually have enough intelligence to get off this planet, and we certainly don't want anyone to be doing any manual labor, leave it up to the machines.
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divx wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:23 pm
and we are already taxing them, hence no change
We have spent a generation cutting their taxes. Just because one pays 1% tax it does not mean they are paying the same as a 50% tax :facepalm:
Interestingly without the Alternative Minimum Tax Trump would have paid about 4% tax instead of 25% on his leaked return. By your logic the 4% is a good idea
Last edited by Quentin5 on Mar 16th, 2017 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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divx wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:23 pm
and we are already taxing them, hence no change

manual labor never paid well, even in the past, skilled labor won't be dead anytime soon. even in 100 years ago, we had merchants, stonemason, craftsman, etc. the way humans are going, we will eventually have enough intelligence to get off this planet, and we certainly don't want anyone to be doing any manual labor, leave it up to the machines.
Are you joking me.

Do you know how many of my late twenties friend win more than 100k$ with basic education when a university professor start at 70k.

But hey, we are the good guys​, we will provide to them when robot take over.
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Quentin5 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:26 pm
We have spent a generation cutting their taxes. Just because one pays 1% tax it does not mean they are paying the same as a 50% tax :facepalm:
the rates are fine, it's those damn loopholes, need to close them all and get them to pay the actual rate as intended.
vonblock wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:31 pm
Are you joking me.

Do you know how many of my late twenties friend win more than 100k$ with basic education when a university professor start at 70k.

But hey, we are the good guys​, we will provide to them when robot take over.
basic education doesn't mean non skilled work, you only need high school for skilled work, and yes, those can pay more than people with a degree
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divx wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:35 pm

basic education doesn't mean non skilled work, you only need high school for skilled work, and yes, those can pay more than people with a degree
This is the point of basic income.

Lots of people predict those kind of jobs will disappears in the near future. They are just getting ready for it.

I agree Carpenter still have lot of years in front of them, but lots of jobs will disappears.
Last edited by vonblock on Mar 16th, 2017 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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divx wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:35 pm
the rates are fine, it's those damn loopholes, need to close them all and get them to pay the actual rate as intended.
Why are the current rates fine, why are they better then pre harper rates? They are lower then before so the rich get richer while everyone else gets poorer, hows that better? Your spouting hype, fix the loopholes and all is fine, thats load of garbage.
Of course loopholes should be fixed but the tax structure is designed to be trickle down economics, which simply does not work. Saying its fine but fix one piece does not repair the fundamental flaws of a garbage system.
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vonblock wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:39 pm
This is the point of basic income.

Lots of people predict those kind of jobs will disappears in the near future. They are just getting ready for it.

I agree Carpenter still have lot of years in front of them, but lots of jobs will disappears.
only kind work for robots is on the assembly line right now, they can't even be trusted to drive the car which a 16 year old can do
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Quentin5 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:39 pm
Why are the current rates fine, why are they better then pre harper rates? They are lower then before so the rich get richer while everyone else gets poorer, hows that better? Your spouting hype, fix the loopholes and all is fine, thats load of garbage.
Of course loopholes should be fixed but the tax structure is designed to be trickle down economics, which simply does not work. Saying its fine but fix one piece does not repair the fundamental flaws of a garbage system.
that's the states, we have high tax in this country
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divx wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:43 pm
that's the states, we have high tax in this country
Steven Harper was the US president and lowered US tax rates Face With Tears Of Joy Talk about alternative facts Winking Face
Thanks for the laugh, i assume the current US president is Pierre Poutine? :rolleyes:
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Quentin5 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:39 pm
Why are the current rates fine, why are they better then pre harper rates? They are lower then before so the rich get richer while everyone else gets poorer, hows that better? Your spouting hype, fix the loopholes and all is fine, thats load of garbage.
Of course loopholes should be fixed but the tax structure is designed to be trickle down economics, which simply does not work. Saying its fine but fix one piece does not repair the fundamental flaws of a garbage system.
Neither is our current system "garbage" just because you say it is. Your solution seems to be increase taxes on the rich, but how exactly?

- how do you define rich? Over a certain income level, or would you measure by net wealth?
- would you tax their income or their net worth
- what rates would you set? Keep in mind that 100% won't work - expropriating all the wealth of the rich has been tried and has been a dismal failure. Like it or not, a country where everyone is equal economically is a country where everyone is equally poor.

It is easy for you to say: "tax the rich", but the question is far more complex than you imagine. When a government designs a tax system, they need to consider and balance off many factors: overall productivity in society, fairness between taxpayers, efficiency (in assessing and collecting the tax), political considerations (no point designing a tax system everyone hates and results in your losing the next election).
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Quentin5 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 6:39 pm
Why are the current rates fine, why are they better then pre harper rates? They are lower then before so the rich get richer while everyone else gets poorer, hows that better? Your spouting hype, fix the loopholes and all is fine, thats load of garbage.
Of course loopholes should be fixed but the tax structure is designed to be trickle down economics, which simply does not work. Saying its fine but fix one piece does not repair the fundamental flaws of a garbage system.
Agreed, the whole "trickle down" thing has NEVER worked. They rich always manage to build a dam and prevent anything from flowing past their greedy pockets:)
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Chickinvic wrote:
Mar 17th, 2017 11:28 am
Agreed, the whole "trickle down" thing has NEVER worked. They rich always manage to build a dam and prevent anything from flowing past their greedy pockets:)
Thats the idea, spend many resources to get people to vote for politicians who take from everyone to give more to the rich, and when it keeps failing either scapegoat or get a better grifter. Often they just deny reality, or use alternative facts.
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Quentin5 wrote:
Mar 17th, 2017 12:02 pm
Thats the idea, spend many resources to get people to vote for politicians who take from everyone to give more to the rich, and when it keeps failing either scapegoat or get a better grifter. Often they just deny reality, or use alternative facts.
Several fundamental problems with that logic, the big one being that conservatives want "politicians who take from everyone to give more to the rich." WRONG. True conservatives want politicans who take less from everyone. We want less regulation, less taxation and more freedom. As for your statement on 'reality deniers'...the socialists are a masterclass in that. How many times have we been told "true socialism has never been implemented"? Those who truly deny reality are those who believe more taxation and more social spending will solve all society's problems when it has never worked in the past.
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silky28 wrote:
Mar 17th, 2017 3:08 pm
Several fundamental problems with that logic, the big one being that conservatives want "politicians who take from everyone to give more to the rich." WRONG. True conservatives want politicans who take less from everyone. We want less regulation, less taxation and more freedom. As for your statement on 'reality deniers'...the socialists are a masterclass in that. How many times have we been told "true socialism has never been implemented"? Those who truly deny reality are those who believe more taxation and more social spending will solve all society's problems when it has never worked in the past.
+1

I'd like massive reductions in government spending in almost everything. The only things I believe are must haves are healthcare, roads, the military and public school. Everything else can be wiped away and I wouldn't really fuss too much. Take note, this is regarding things that are based off of tax revenue, not programs like CPP and EI, which we fund ourselves and are separate from taxes.
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silky28 wrote:
Mar 17th, 2017 3:08 pm
Several fundamental problems with that logic, the big one being that conservatives want "politicians who take from everyone to give more to the rich." WRONG. True conservatives want politicans who take less from everyone. We want less regulation, less taxation and more freedom. As for your statement on 'reality deniers'...the socialists are a masterclass in that. How many times have we been told "true socialism has never been implemented"? Those who truly deny reality are those who believe more taxation and more social spending will solve all society's problems when it has never worked in the past.
I think the problem with simply lowering the tax on everyone, especially as a flat percentage of income or investment, is that while it may satisfy a certain philosophy, it doesn't really improve life for anyone. In terms of revenue, it affects the lower class very negatively in terms of gutting spending programs, and it affects the rich marginally by giving them money that will have little net effect on their quality of life.

My proposal, which is to tax productivity instead of people, would simply tax industries on their output instead of trying to catch the trickles on our tongues. This I think would also generate such a ridiculous amount of revenue, that a basic minimum income would be easily affordable. We could even base the printing of currency off of raw productivity, rather than the current borrowing/lending/easing system.
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