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Ontario Moving Forward With High-Speed Rail

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Apr 5, 2013
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markham
ya they are starting "consultations"...give it about 20 years and a few billions to cronies for these so called "feasibility " studies...a load of horse$hit..blow some money over a term then the next gov't re assesses ..blows more money...meanwhile all the party supporters (through big donations) get a seat on the boards and get money for nothing...just another black hole to pour money at!...the Union /Pearson link was visited in 1989...5 different provincial and municipal governments later...its almost built...each time a new group comes in, they try to get their own lobby the business...Union/Pearson link has been 25 years and its almost ready....the cost has been hidden/covered up over the years ...and one of the biggest culprits- SNC Lavalin- who have their fingers in everything (including the 407) aren't even allowed to do business in the rest of the world because they are so corrupt...

here comes another billion dollar black hole...
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astrotrain wrote:
Dec 5th, 2014 4:14 pm
Don't know why there is no Ottawa, Montreal, connection. A big WTF moment.

Furthermore how open would this tender be, is Siemens, Alston, CHR going to bid, how much would Bombardier charge? What is the $$ charge per mile etc. Many questions . .
I remember hearing about this a few years ago, with stops in Ottawa and Montreal. I remember reading that the travel between Toronto/Montreal would be like about 2 hours. I'm guessing if they actually go ahead with this plan, adding in Ottawa/Montreal will be a no brainer.
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cardguy wrote:
Dec 5th, 2014 4:58 pm
ya they are starting "consultations"...give it about 20 years and a few billions to cronies for these so called "feasibility " studies...a load of horse$hit..blow some money over a term then the next gov't re assesses ..blows more money...meanwhile all the party supporters (through big donations) get a seat on the boards and get money for nothing...just another black hole to pour money at!...the Union /Pearson link was visited in 1989...5 different provincial and municipal governments later...its almost built...each time a new group comes in, they try to get their own lobby the business...Union/Pearson link has been 25 years and its almost ready....the cost has been hidden/covered up over the years ...and one of the biggest culprits- SNC Lavalin- who have their fingers in everything (including the 407) aren't even allowed to do business in the rest of the world because they are so corrupt...

here comes another billion dollar black hole...
Excellent points, I see this as just as an election promise gimmick that will run years into the future treading water with millions of $$s in feasibility studies/budget analysis and bickering debate at nausea, with no inch of track laid. You can argue all HSR or other mega projects around the world entail corruption and misspent money but when these projects are completed ordinary citizens are utilizing the infrastructure on a daily basis. Even if they do not recoup the build costs in the long term based on ticket per annum pricing etc., mega projects like these provide economic dividends in their construction, employment operations, environmental savings i.e. carbon reduction for xx number of cars taken off the 401 or lower airline pollution, time saved per journey (no airport screenings etc.), mobility of labor etc.

All these econ benefits do not go into the final accountants report but they are there if the project is built rather than wasting millions on feasibility studies that span decades with no final project construction.

rapsrealm wrote:
Dec 5th, 2014 4:58 pm
I remember hearing about this a few years ago, with stops in Ottawa and Montreal. I remember reading that the travel between Toronto/Montreal would be like about 2 hours. I'm guessing if they actually go ahead with this plan, adding in Ottawa/Montreal will be a no brainer.
The Toronto – Ottawa - Montreal corridor should have been the focal point becus HSR is meant to be deployed on denser cities with the smaller towns as secondary beneficiaries of the network, not the other way around like what they are proposing. They are going to have a hard sale to the public connecting ghost town Windsor to T.O. What they say is probably true, the Quebecers don’t want anything to do with Ontario and vice versa, there goes one of the benefits of HSR, regional integration.

They are forecasting it will take a decade just to build this measly 370km line. The longest HSR line in the world Guangzhou – Beijing line, 3300 kms only took 7 years. Add another decade of studies you’re looking at 20s + years to completion, many of the people on this board would be retirement homes by then. Man everything in this country is slow as molasses.

Some of the comments below are hilarious.
http://blogs.windsorstar.com/news/provi ... in-windsor
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May 28, 2006
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Better off connecting to Niagara Falls where the American tourist are wealthier than on the Windsor/Detroit side. Only gamblers will be riding to Windsor.
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To be honest, high speed rail doesn't really make sense for a country as spread out as Canada. There's not nearly as much demand as in Europe & Asia and the demand is better serviced by air travel than high speed rail IMO. If the demand isn't super high, you can bet economies of scale won't apply and this "high speed rail" might end up costing you just as much per ticket than an airfare travel (which is practically the cacse with Viarail currently for some destinations).
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You have any project that takes decades and a government system that changes parties and leaders every 4 years it's a miracle if someone doesn't axe the project for political reasons.
astrotrain wrote:
Dec 5th, 2014 6:56 pm
Excellent points, I see this as just as an election promise gimmick that will run years into the future treading water with millions of $$s in feasibility studies/budget analysis and bickering debate at nausea, with no inch of track laid. You can argue all HSR or other mega projects around the world entail corruption and misspent money but when these projects are completed ordinary citizens are utilizing the infrastructure on a daily basis. Even if they do not recoup the build costs in the long term based on ticket per annum pricing etc., mega projects like these provide economic dividends in their construction, employment operations, environmental savings i.e. carbon reduction for xx number of cars taken off the 401 or lower airline pollution, time saved per journey (no airport screenings etc.), mobility of labor etc.

All these econ benefits do not go into the final accountants report but they are there if the project is built rather than wasting millions on feasibility studies that span decades with no final project construction.




The Toronto – Ottawa - Montreal corridor should have been the focal point becus HSR is meant to be deployed on denser cities with the smaller towns as secondary beneficiaries of the network, not the other way around like what they are proposing. They are going to have a hard sale to the public connecting ghost town Windsor to T.O. What they say is probably true, the Quebecers don’t want anything to do with Ontario and vice versa, there goes one of the benefits of HSR, regional integration.

They are forecasting it will take a decade just to build this measly 370km line. The longest HSR line in the world Guangzhou – Beijing line, 3300 kms only took 7 years. Add another decade of studies you’re looking at 20s + years to completion, many of the people on this board would be retirement homes by then. Man everything in this country is slow as molasses.

Some of the comments below are hilarious.
http://blogs.windsorstar.com/news/provi ... in-windsor
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What's the point in a high-speed connection to Detroit at this point? The place is bankrupt. It makes more sense to run a high-speed link to Buffalo. (By comparison Buffalo is booming). Niagara could do with better rail connections to TO too, so that's two birds with one stone.
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What a joke. No Niagra region? Poor ass Windsor/London? How is this train service actually going to make money? How many people fly London to Toronto? I'll give you a hint the airport is tiny for a reason. You think average Joe Citizen of London ON is going to commute by mega expensive high speed rail to Toronto for work? Not gonna happen. You think US tourists will drive through Detroit, park in Windsor just to take a train to Toronto? Not gonna happen. They won't even built HST between Edmonton/Calgary, a 3 hour drive because of lack of demand, but you think there is demand for riders from Toronto to London, Windsor, Kitchener? Get real. What a stupid government wasting more money. I won't be shocked when more and more of Ontario starts looking more and more like Detroit.
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turkey9000 wrote:
Dec 5th, 2014 10:57 pm
What a joke. No Niagra region? Poor ass Windsor/London? How is this train service actually going to make money? How many people fly London to Toronto? I'll give you a hint the airport is tiny for a reason. You think average Joe Citizen of London ON is going to commute by mega expensive high speed rail to Toronto for work? Not gonna happen. You think US tourists will drive through Detroit, park in Windsor just to take a train to Toronto? Not gonna happen. They won't even built HST between Edmonton/Calgary, a 3 hour drive because of lack of demand, but you think there is demand for riders from Toronto to London, Windsor, Kitchener? Get real. What a stupid government wasting more money. I won't be shocked when more and more of Ontario starts looking more and more like Detroit.
No need for it now that gas prices are dropping and people can start racing down the highway at 100MPH again. Ontario's going to see a resurgence now that people are able to drive outside their immediate vicinity and start spending money on things other than gas. We will need more new highways though, as the existing ones are pretty much car parks, with increased stoppages the closer you get to TO.
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It'd be good to be able to cut the travel time in half. I'd take it going from Toronto to Niagara Falls/Buffalo or Ottawa or Montreal if it wasn't too expensive. It's got to be comparable to the price of gas.

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Mar 31, 2010
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Should have just been KW > Toronto > Ottawa > Montreal
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omgreo wrote:
Dec 6th, 2014 12:44 am
Should have just been KW > Toronto > Ottawa > Montreal
Nah, if you look at a map you'll see that Ottawa is "off the beaten path". Kingston would be a more likely stop, with a side link to Ottawa if necessary. Though the politicians hide away from the masses for a reason.

A far busier route, if the oil industry picks up again, would be one way to Alberta from ON/QC/Atlantic. It costs far too much to fly there, but rail might be doable. It was the way to move west a century ago. That's why most cities out your way grew up alongside railway tracks.
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Ice and snow and high speed train on old crappy train tracks don't sounds very safe.
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astrotrain wrote:
Dec 5th, 2014 3:33 pm
Windsor, London, Kitchener-Waterloo...
ssainani wrote:
Dec 5th, 2014 3:37 pm
but no reason to better connect the people who chose to live in the middle of no where with those in the city.
You aren't helping defend the "centre of the universe" reputation of Toronto.
The 401 corridor is hardly "middle of nowhere".
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uber_shnitz wrote:
Dec 5th, 2014 10:07 pm
To be honest, high speed rail doesn't really make sense for a country as spread out as Canada. There's not nearly as much demand as in Europe & Asia and the demand is better serviced by air travel than high speed rail IMO. If the demand isn't super high, you can bet economies of scale won't apply and this "high speed rail" might end up costing you just as much per ticket than an airfare travel (which is practically the cacse with Viarail currently for some destinations).
I read somewhere they are targeting $40 per trip from Windsor to T.O. I use to live in Windsor as a kid and came to travel to Toronto on Greyhound, think the fare was $80ish back in the 90s, if this ticket price is right the trip will be 2/3 less hours depending on speed 250-300 km/hr. It will be substantially lower than Airlines, less pollution, less time screening/baggage nonsense, etc. Economies of scale can only happen if this was part of a much larger network in the future but Bombardier already produces trainsets, the Zefiro line but don't know about signaling systems and track.
Psycho44 wrote:
Dec 5th, 2014 10:07 pm
You have any project that takes decades and a government system that changes parties and leaders every 4 years it's a miracle if someone doesn't axe the project for political reasons.
The project is a dead pipe dream, just an election gimmick. This province squabbles forever over a paltry LRT or Subway line, a mega project like this takes strategic vision and big budget to bring to completion, something the leadership of this country has not shown to any appreciable degree.
LEXX911 wrote:
Dec 6th, 2014 1:29 am
Ice and snow and high speed train on old crappy train tracks don't sounds very safe.
The HSR will be using dedicated tracks, what is old will be assigned just for freight which is one of the benefits of HSR.

HSR spans France that connects to Switzerland I think via Swiss Alps, we know the winters there. A Beijing to Harbin line is almost done, Harbin suffers Siberian winters, don't think the engineers have substantial issues with ice and snow for these lines.

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