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Paid duty cops - overpaying for security?

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Sep 1, 2013
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Paid duty cops - overpaying for security?

Article in the Toronto Star today about paid duty cops:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/04 ... _hume.html

The article focuses on how much it would cost to close off downtown streets in Toronto on Sunday mornings. A city councillor was wondering if security guards could be used instead of cops:

[QUOTE]And apparently no one but badge-wearing cops will do. “We asked the police to give us names of private security firms we could use, but they couldn’t,” she says. “That would cost more like $20 an hour not $85. The police weren’t able to say why it cost that amount. But in a police report to the city, they said they would need 260 officers to man every single intersection and end street along the route.”[/QUOTE]

This got me wondering about a couple of things:

- I expect that a police officer will provide better security than a security guard, but I wonder if the additional cost is worth it? And its not just closing off streets; we all see cops at construction sites redirecting traffic, at organized events, etc. A lot of these situations are not exactly high risk or require a high level of skill to perform.

- I got the impression from the article that the police force itself seems to be able to decide if a private security firm is allowed to provide security, or if they must do it themselves. Clearly a conflict of interest here - I am sure there are plenty of cops who would volunteer for these assignments. I assume this is why there are so many of them (regular constables, not management) who are making over 100K.

Just to be clear, I fully support a well paid, well trained and well disciplined police force in our society. I respect the fact that they sometimes deal with dangerous and difficult situations and should be compensated for it. But the resources of society are not infinite. I think it is reasonable to question whether we are overpaying for a level of security that we don't need.
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CheapScotch wrote: Article in the Toronto Star today about paid duty cops:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/04 ... _hume.html

The article focuses on how much it would cost to close off downtown streets in Toronto on Sunday mornings. A city councillor was wondering if security guards could be used instead of cops:



This got me wondering about a couple of things:

- I expect that a police officer will provide better security than a security guard, but I wonder if the additional cost is worth it? And its not just closing off streets; we all see cops at construction sites redirecting traffic, at organized events, etc. A lot of these situations are not exactly high risk or require a high level of skill to perform.

- I got the impression from the article that the police force itself seems to be able to decide if a private security firm is allowed to provide security, or if they must do it themselves. Clearly a conflict of interest here - I am sure there are plenty of cops who would volunteer for these assignments. I assume this is why there are so many of them (regular constables, not management) who are making over 100K.

Just to be clear, I fully support a well paid, well trained and well disciplined police force in our society. I respect the fact that they sometimes deal with dangerous and difficult situations and should be compensated for it. But the resources of society are not infinite. I think it is reasonable to question whether we are overpaying for a level of security that we don't need.
You are right that the city could go cheaper but in fairness, it's the city that sets up the bylaw about having officers do that type of detail. They could change it but they don't. If a private security company was used and the drivers didn't feel like obeying the closures for whatever reason then they would end up calling the Police anyway. Also it's not the Police service's responsibility to keep a list of what security companies to call and I have no problem with any public sector employees getting on the sunshine list this way because this is overtime, they do this on their days off, much like if you decided to work on your assigned days off. Also, the sunshine list really needs to be updated for inflation, at today's rage, it should be around 140 k to fairly compare to the original intent of the list.
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It basically comes down to power/authority and discretion. Private security simply does not have that, and at-the-end-of-the-day they will simply call the police anyway to handle the situation. That in turn removes officers from serving the public in their division, where it likely could have been handled by a professional (the police) that were specifically dedicated to that event.
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spintheblackcircle wrote: It basically comes down to power/authority and discretion. Private security simply does not have that, and at-the-end-of-the-day they will simply call the police anyway to handle the situation. That in turn removes officers from serving the public in their division, where it likely could have been handled by a professional (the police) that were specifically dedicated to that event.
I think that Vancouver's got the right idea on this one, where they have special constables handle do this kind of work. They're recruited, trained and equipped properly, and are given the authority necessary to do the specific job they are hired to do. Also, since they're paid a decent salary they can attract good people. Since they're part time/on call, they don't have to pay people overtime or "double time" rates to do the job.
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http://m.thestar.com/#!/gta/redirect/ee ... 5318a77bb5

So ridiculous. I can't fault the officers on cashing in for legit overtime but this process can definitely use some changes.
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Dec 11, 2006
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For my wedding 3 years ago I actually hired a paid duty officer for the reception. This was because the reception venue only took cash, and having $60k in cash with 350 guests was a scary experience. The officer at the time explained that if crap hits the fan he can call backup through his radio and they will be there in 2 minutes, while a security guard can only call 911 and hope that the precinct isn't busy with other calls.
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It's amazing the most things people in Canada, especially Toronto complain about...
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Wow... never knew the cost for that...

[QUOTE]As organizers of the proposed street closure discovered, it adds up. The cost of closing Yonge and Church between Bloor and Queen and Bloor from Parliament to High Park four Sunday mornings, 8 a.m. to 1 p.m., comes in at $840,000.
That’s how much it will cost to have a cop at every corner; $210,000 a morning, four mornings.[/QUOTE]

Councillor Wong-Tam brought this up - I think the question is quite legitimate:
[QUOTE]“What I don’t understand,” says councillor Krystin Wong-Tam, speaking on behalf of all Torontonians, “is why this isn’t part of normal police activity.”[/QUOTE]

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Jan 10, 2007
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not many (if any ) cops needed when they shutdown streets in ottawa every weekend.

city crews put up barriers and then take them down later.
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kanfive wrote: The officer at the time explained that if crap hits the fan he can call backup through his radio and they will be there in 2 minutes, while a security guard can only call 911 and hope that the precinct isn't busy with other calls.
So in effect, when you hire a cop for paid duty compared to a security guard, the extra money you pay not only buys you his services, but also a higher priority for the emergency response services of the police force.
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CheapScotch wrote: So in effect, when you hire a cop for paid duty compared a security guard, the extra money you pay not only buys you his services, but also a higher priority for the emergency response services of the police force.
No. You save time, not gain a higher priority. There's always a delay if you call 911 yourself.
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As a fiscal conservative who is all for saving tax dollars, let me explain my position.

City By-Laws and regulations mandate that police be involved in these types of events. Moreover due to the large number of pedestrians concentrated along the roadways as is planned in the purposed events, additional police presence beyond what the local divisions could provide would be necessary.

[QUOTE]“What I don’t understand,” says councillor Krystin Wong-Tam, speaking on behalf of all Torontonians, “is why this isn’t part of normal police activity.” [/QUOTE]

As I stated above, Councillor Wong-Tam should probably do some homework on the By-Laws that her job requires her to make and oversee. It never ceases to amaze me what kind of idiots some Torontonians elect to represent them. One would think a politician would be knowledgeable about the law, given that it's their job to make them. But then again, they don't have to submit a resume to any governing body and prove their qualifications and knowledge like law enforcement officers, or hell, even private security do, in order to get hired.

Now, back to her point. Policing street festivals is part of police activity, but local divisions do not have the resources to police both their entire geographic mandate and provide the necessary enhanced presence at the event. Thus it is necessary for the local division to pay out overtime and mobilize it's entire strength, and bring in out of division assets to assist as well. These assets include but are not limited to: Local Community Response Units, an Area Field Command, additional Bike Patrol Units, the Mounted Unit, the Public Safety Unit, Spare Patrol Units, TAVIS, the Auxiliary Unit and last but not least, regular paid duty officers to direct traffic.

Simply put, policing these large gatherings of pedestrians requires a massive effort and the TPS doesn't have the strength to be able to just police them with whatever local assets are available. They have 911 calls to respond to and entire divisions to patrol.

[QUOTE]And apparently no one but badge-wearing cops will do. “We asked the police to give us names of private security firms we could use, but they couldn’t,” she says.[/QUOTE]

Again, our local politician failed Law 101 and seems to have no comprehension of the laws makes. Private security don't have the authority to direct traffic on public roads, and using them in lieu of police makes these events unsafe for the public. High concentrations of pedestrians clogged roads, and frustrated drivers creates problems. Problems that inexperienced and poorly trained guards (you won't find enough high quality guards just sitting around to work these events, see Nuit Blanche - the guards hired to work that event to provide traffic control, etc were extremely low quality) can't deal with.

Now this all said, there are other options. This city is in desperate need of By-Law reform and By-Law enforcement. The city could reform the rules such that paid duty officers are only used when they really need (the private sector can retain the right to use them as they wish), and use By-Law officers instead. There is no shortage of experienced and qualified security guards who would be happy to make $20/h working By-Law for the city. Toronto's myriad of unenforced By-Laws are a huge cash cow for the city as well. The city could hire 100 new By-Law officers and the program would be massively profitable with all the tickets being handed out. Now instead of costing the city money when they need paid duty officers, they make money because the By-Law officers pay for themselves, street festivals become more affordable as they can use a combination of paid duty officers, By-Law officers and possibly more Auxiliaries.

Problem solved.
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AcidBomber wrote: No. You save time, not gain a higher priority. There's always a delay if you call 911 yourself.
Well, perhaps the private security guards should buy themselves police radios and call for backup (just like the paid duty cop can do) to save time in getting emergency police services.
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CheapScotch wrote: Well, perhaps the private security guards should buy themselves police radios and call for backup (just like the paid duty cop can do) to save time in getting emergency police services.
Doesn't really work like that. Most LE transmissions are encrypted anyway. I'm no expert on radios though.
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ProfessorVon wrote: Doesn't really work like that. Most LE transmissions are encrypted anyway. I'm no expert on radios though.
If this is correct, then paid duty police officers have a monopoly on a resource (faster access to emergency police services) that, all other things being equal, would allow them to charge more than the competition (private security firms) for security services. The problem is that the resource is paid for with public funds. I don't really want my tax dollars to be used to help cops pay off their mortgages faster - I've got my own mortgage to pay off too.
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I own a security Company and I can certainly tell you in the security industry this is well discussed topic and the debate is endless.

Police say security has no extra powers and are untrained, underpaid, and unfit to do the job.

The security industry discredits this and points to the fact that cops do not like their cash cow paid duty assignments taken away to people who will do it for less. And although it does hold true that security does not have any special powers, this is only true on public property. The truth is, it is the complete opposite of private property where security guards do have more powers than the general public and even Police because they have been authorized by the owner of that land to enforce the Trespass to Property Act whereas the Police did not originally have permission, therefore needs permission before the powers are granted to them. Then the cost factor comes in: $20/hour to pay for a security guard or $80 per hour for a paid duty Police Officer. Now one must decide whether or not paying quadruple of what a security guard will cost in favour of a police officer is worth it. Usually on private property, a security guard to enforce the TPA (which is effective enough) and the cost advantage makes hiring security guards a more attractive option.

The buzz that rocked the security industry was a year ago when Rob Ford said he would change the municipal laws that state that Police must be present for road construction and other traffic duties. The police cried foul while the security industry rejoiced. Haven't heard any updates since.
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CheapScotch wrote: I don't really want my tax dollars to be used to help cops pay off their mortgages faster - I've got my own mortgage to pay off too.
Wow does OP have it against cops or what? Guess what, you can work side jobs too or work overtime at your work place to make extra money just like some cops or any person with a job might do.

And to OPs comment about having higher priority as a cop? Just by guessing:

1. Cop radios to cop is faster than someone dialing 911, and the operator asking if you want police, ambulance or fire, what the problem is, location and THEN dispatched

2. Cop radios in for help and requires back-up... hmm wonder why its faster?

and no offence, I don't take security guards seriously at all nor do many people. They can't fine me, hurt me, arrest me, TELL ME TO PULL OVER, get helicopter or dog support, why the hell would I listen to them? If the situation gets out of hand, guess what, they call the cops.
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Well this shouldn't actually be a police vs security guard debate. If I turned it that way, then I apologize.

I think the debate was is the police pricing themselves out of the competition when other municipalities have sworn officers and security guards to do the job for a more realistic price?

Don't get me wrong, it's quite evident that a police officer has the most resources when it comes to paid duty work and I am in no way debating that. I think the poster above me has made that very clear. The question is do you really need a police officer to watch a hole in the ground while a construction crew digs for $80/hour? It would be rare (not saying it wont happen, just rare) to ask for backup in that situation. We need more cost effective solutions here especially when Ontario is hurting financially.
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miscbrah1 wrote: [..]
They can't fine me, hurt me, arrest me, TELL ME TO PULL OVER, get helicopter or dog support, why the hell would I listen to them?
Security guards can't fine you or tell you to pull over. However, they can arrest you under certain circumstances (such as if they see you commit a crime, or they tell you to leave the property and you don't). Yes, they can use force to do it. If you resist them, you would be facing criminal charges. In addition, the security guard (or their company) can sue you for any damages they occur. Punch a guard and knock out a tooth? Have fun paying the replacement, as well as the guard's lost wages as he/she deals with the emotional trauma.

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