Automotive

Push button ignition

  • Last Updated:
  • Oct 11th, 2016 4:04 pm
Deal Addict
Feb 6, 2011
2372 posts
3008 upvotes
hulk007 wrote: Not happy about the fact you can drive away in my car without the key fob once started (Nissan Murano 2015).
I have a 4 year old ford. If you walk away with the fob with the engine running, the horn chirps twice as a warning.
Deal Addict
Apr 18, 2005
3799 posts
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Mississauga
I don't see why manufacturers did not lock getting out of park if the fob is not detected.
I would want this.
In morning our routines in winter is.
I usually start the car(s) back out of garage and go back into the house .. get the kiddos shoes and jackets in winter.. collect lunchboxes.. and me along with the Mrs. We all leave ... whole process takes between 3-4 min. where both my vehicles are left vulnerable.

If you think about it they can easily tap and cut power to the brake shift relay the prevents you shifting without holding the brake. So really it's possible ..
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Aug 3, 2014
1261 posts
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Toronto, ON
This issue could be solved very easily with something that has been built in remote starters for years.

Have the car shut off if it is shifted out of Park and the key is out of range.
_______
Speedkar99 | YouTube
Deal Expert
Aug 22, 2011
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speedkar9 wrote: This issue could be solved very easily with something that has been built in remote starters for years.

Have the car shut off if it is shifted out of Park and the key is out of range.
For vehicles with factory autostart, you are required to press the start button again when you get in and if the key is not present, you can't put it into gear and it will shut off.
The "logic" is there, but not implemented for this scenario.
Deal Fanatic
Apr 20, 2011
7747 posts
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ON
ck1223 wrote:
aqnd wrote:
ck1223 wrote:

The problem with this technology that many people are not aware of, is that all a thief needs is a cheap radio signal booster. So let's say you're having dinner at a restaurant, and a thief has a radio signal booster with them in the restaurant hidden in a briefcase. An accomplice is outside now unlocking doors because the car thinks you're in range and steals whatever is in your car.

One of many articles online
At minimum you'd need a two way system on two separate frequencies, as (at least on my car) it's a two signal and frequency system to start the car and drive off without fob (which is what OP is concerned with).
Such a system you describe will only get them in the door to loot the cabin.
To actually start the car, it sends a different signal and frequency and the response must come from within the cabin.
It may also check the time it takes to respond, and if your relay system takes more than a couple ms it may not work.

Other vehicles may only have a one step process, which is much easier to trick.

It's also easy to protect yourself - simply remove the tinfoil hat from your head and wrap your fob in it.
The hack actually is two way. It's in the article I posted. Thieves were also using this trick to start the car. You don't have to boost a particular frequency, you boost them all, or in a range, or look up details on the car manufacturer. A "different signal" doesn't matter. Signals travel at a frequency, not with a frequency. They are not independent, and you are not concerned with what the signal is. All you do is make sure that you boost the frequencies in that area.

As for "within the cabin to start". You just need a repeater once you've opened the door.
Two separate signals on two separate frequencies. You'd need two retransmission units at each end, or one with a wide band antenna.
And you can't just magically boost signals as they pass by you. You need to capture them and retransmit. That takes time. A lot of time, compared to the speed of light.
So it's very easy to detect when a response is taking exceptionally long, especially if it requests multiple responses.

Yes, it could be possible, but it's a lot of effort and everything has to line up just right.
I circle back to what I said before - if you're concerned, just block all signal from your fob when away from the vehicle.
Clearly the tinfoil hat joke went over your head, though ;)
Penalty Box
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Oct 19, 2012
3359 posts
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Toronto
OP I have a Nissan Murano too and noticed this stupid flaw. Unbelievable. Even my old 1996 Toyota Rav4 had an ancient cheap aftermarket alarm system that shut the engine off when you put it in drive if the key was not in the ignition when I left it running.
Deal Addict
Apr 18, 2005
3799 posts
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Mississauga
Not all cars have autostart .. but almost every auto transmission has the brake shift interlock relay.. which all you would need to do is not power it if key is not detected.

I know on my wife's old Taurus .. yea that was a 1992 car.. The power wire to the relay corroded and it could not shift out... After mechanic found the issue he just spliced a new wire in.. and it was fine.
Sr. Member
Jan 29, 2014
574 posts
658 upvotes
Toronto
Gammatron wrote: OP I have a Nissan Murano too and noticed this stupid flaw. Unbelievable. Even my old 1996 Toyota Rav4 had an ancient cheap aftermarket alarm system that shut the engine off when you put it in drive if the key was not in the ignition when I left it running.
The car doesn't shut off when it doesn't detect the key fob, and it can still shift from park to drive, because if the battery inside the fob dies, the car will never wireless detect it, rendering the car undrivable in that case. Most cars allow you to physically press the ignition switch with the fob when the battery is dead to start the car.
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May 14, 2010
1065 posts
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Halifax
I know this thread has gone off the rails but I witnessed an example were my friend's kid was our designated driver and the kid was driving my friends car. My friend and I get out of the car with the key in my friends purse. Kid drives away only to get home and find they cant start the car again.

I get why the car can drive without the key but I feel it should be giving you a pretty good warning that its lost connection to the key and wont restart.
Deal Expert
Jan 15, 2006
21392 posts
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Richmond Hill
RandomCDN wrote: I know this thread has gone off the rails but I witnessed an example were my friend's kid was our designated driver and the kid was driving my friends car. My friend and I get out of the car with the key in my friends purse. Kid drives away only to get home and find they cant start the car again.

I get why the car can drive without the key but I feel it should be giving you a pretty good warning that its lost connection to the key and wont restart.
I have 2 cars in my household that use keyless push start. One car will gong and in the middle of the gauge cluster will tell you there's no key present as well as on the navi screen, one needs to be blind to miss this. Second car will beep twice once the key isn't present and will tell you there's no key present on the gauge cluster and navi. So again, how are people so oblivious? I've been in numerous makes with this technology and they all tell you when the key isn't present if the car is running.
Deal Addict
Jan 1, 2013
2126 posts
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Durham
EP32k2 wrote:
RandomCDN wrote: I know this thread has gone off the rails but I witnessed an example were my friend's kid was our designated driver and the kid was driving my friends car. My friend and I get out of the car with the key in my friends purse. Kid drives away only to get home and find they cant start the car again.

I get why the car can drive without the key but I feel it should be giving you a pretty good warning that its lost connection to the key and wont restart.
I have 2 cars in my household that use keyless push start. One car will gong and in the middle of the gauge cluster will tell you there's no key present as well as on the navi screen, one needs to be blind to miss this. Second car will beep twice once the key isn't present and will tell you there's no key present on the gauge cluster and navi. So again, how are people so oblivious? I've been in numerous makes with this technology and they all tell you when the key isn't present if the car is running.
Exactly, my Pathfinder does the exact same thing, it's actually loud enough enough to hear from outside the car. Also if the battery dies in the fob, you simply push the the button with the fob, some sort of magnetic connection is made to start the car.
Deal Guru
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Mar 31, 2008
13010 posts
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Toronto
Had to this happen to a friend's wife. Key Fob was in range of the car which was parked in the garage. I guess the key was left hanging or in a jacket near the garage but in the house. Come morning, it killed the battery, and the car wouldn't start.

Don't believe it.. here

"Slight parasitic draws can pose a problem. While the vehicle’s system will (or should) go to sleep after a specified time (after the vehicle has been shut off, parked and exited), the proximity of the smart key to the vehicle can result in the possibility of a dead battery if the smart key remains in close proximity to the vehicle.

For instance, if the vehicle is parked close to a house, where the driver’s smart key or proximity card is stored within the design range of the system (for instance, with the smart key in a purse or wallet that’s within the key’s transponder range). If the system is constantly kept “awake,” this parasitic draw can, depending on the circumstances, result in a dead vehicle battery."
http://www.autoserviceprofessional.com/ ... ems?Page=2

Again, this wireless starter is one of the dumbest things ever invented. Just another reason for car makers to charge more, or for engineers to make themselves useful and justify their existence in the automotive sector.

As to the OP, no duh.
Banned
Nov 16, 2012
1837 posts
390 upvotes
EAST YORK
LOL if you leave any car running, whether it is push button start or not somebody can drive off with it.

At least with push button, once they shut it off they will not be able to start it again. That's obviously not the case with a regular key start ignition.
Deal Addict
Nov 15, 2003
1161 posts
443 upvotes
Toronto
aqnd wrote:
ck1223 wrote:
aqnd wrote:

At minimum you'd need a two way system on two separate frequencies, as (at least on my car) it's a two signal and frequency system to start the car and drive off without fob (which is what OP is concerned with).
Such a system you describe will only get them in the door to loot the cabin.
To actually start the car, it sends a different signal and frequency and the response must come from within the cabin.
It may also check the time it takes to respond, and if your relay system takes more than a couple ms it may not work.

Other vehicles may only have a one step process, which is much easier to trick.

It's also easy to protect yourself - simply remove the tinfoil hat from your head and wrap your fob in it.
The hack actually is two way. It's in the article I posted. Thieves were also using this trick to start the car. You don't have to boost a particular frequency, you boost them all, or in a range, or look up details on the car manufacturer. A "different signal" doesn't matter. Signals travel at a frequency, not with a frequency. They are not independent, and you are not concerned with what the signal is. All you do is make sure that you boost the frequencies in that area.

As for "within the cabin to start". You just need a repeater once you've opened the door.
Clearly the tinfoil hat joke went over your head, though ;)
No it didn't. I was just not acknowledging your joke.
Member
Mar 6, 2008
456 posts
197 upvotes
Ottawa
EP32k2 wrote:
RandomCDN wrote: I know this thread has gone off the rails but I witnessed an example were my friend's kid was our designated driver and the kid was driving my friends car. My friend and I get out of the car with the key in my friends purse. Kid drives away only to get home and find they cant start the car again.

I get why the car can drive without the key but I feel it should be giving you a pretty good warning that its lost connection to the key and wont restart.
I have 2 cars in my household that use keyless push start. One car will gong and in the middle of the gauge cluster will tell you there's no key present as well as on the navi screen, one needs to be blind to miss this. Second car will beep twice once the key isn't present and will tell you there's no key present on the gauge cluster and navi. So again, how are people so oblivious? I've been in numerous makes with this technology and they all tell you when the key isn't present if the car is running.
Yep, my VW gives an incredibly annoying chime that you can't miss once you start driving away without the FOB. My BMW also does the same, but the chime is more subtle. Both alert you that the key is not in proximity.
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Jun 12, 2003
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Markham
Reminds me of that top gear episode where (I think) Jeremy pranked James because the car had push button start that worked while in the restaurant
ShadowVlican
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Jul 22, 2006
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theillest wrote: LOL if you leave any car running, whether it is push button start or not somebody can drive off with it.

At least with push button, once they shut it off they will not be able to start it again. That's obviously not the case with a regular key start ignition.
Unless it's a MT :p
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Jan 6, 2015
2860 posts
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Toronto, ON
hulk007 wrote:
EP32k2 wrote: Is OP still stuck in the stone ages? It's not like someone can just jump in the car and start it lol
should have clarified better, after starting the car with fob in proximity you don't need the fob anymore, So anyone could hop in and drive it away if you left it running while going into a store for 1 minute.
You're gonna shit your pants when you hear my answer: turn off the car.
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May 19, 2003
5101 posts
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Why no one post this?
Fun starta at 3:13
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Feb 9, 2008
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EP32k2 wrote: So again, how are people so oblivious?
Yes!

Blame the users for your poor design!

That'll work!

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