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RFD Raptors Lounge - NBA CHAMPIONS!

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Aug 5, 2004
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Toronto (Pasadena
gilboman wrote:
Mar 11th, 2008 3:13 pm
once i read that..i'm sorry, i just can't take you seriously or anything you post seriously. stats are stats, you can combine them in an endless amount of ways to show a desired outcome. but if the conclusion from your stats is Moon is the 2nd most important player on our team then...
I use the same stats all the time, and don't combine them in any way. These are raw results of the team. If I had known these stats existed a couple years ago, I would have appreciated Kobe more in 2005-6 because they show how important he was despite my claims of the Lakers not getting any more points whether he shoots or someone else does.

If you want to make some argument against it, go ahead. Don't cop out by making some half-assed attempt at childishly insulting me.

The fact is that through nearly 3,000 minutes of play, the Raptors are much better with Moon on the floor. Only Bosh makes a bigger difference. When Moon was resting, the team outscored its opponents by an average of 1 point per 100 possessions. When he was on the floor, they outscored them by 8. Again, other than Bosh, nobody come close to that kind of impact on the Raptors.

Want to see the list of players in the NBA with the greatest impact between being on the floor and on the bench?
http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.p ... order=DESC

At the top you have Nash, Jamison, LeBron, Dirk, Dwight, and Kobe. Keep going and there are no flukes anywhere on that list. Maybe some underappreciated guys, but that's it.

What is your definition of valuable? To me it's very straightforward. If you're there the team does better than when you're not. If your absence doesn't affect the team, in the end how important are you really?

Calderon is the superficially the obvious choice for second most valuable, but his presence really makes the defense worse too, so overall we don't gain much. Ford is the opposite (obviously), but to a smaller degree. IMO Calderon's defense is fixable to some degree so he's still worth signing.
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Aug 5, 2004
2604 posts
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Toronto (Pasadena
Psubs wrote:
Mar 11th, 2008 3:29 pm
Well I suppose the way you look at is if Calderon sits and TJ is in the game there is no real difference. Whereas if you put in someone else like Kapono or Graham for Moon there is a big change in defense and how the team performs. He's our poor man's Josh Smith (who should've been an allstar).
The thing is that even when Ford was injured, we didn't have a consistent drop in play when Calderon was resting.

To me Calderon is more about future potential as he seems to keep getting better. There is no question that he does wonders for our offense (BTW, there are on/off stats for offense and defense alone on that page I linked), but if he can be a better defender then he could be fantastic. For example, Steve Nash doesn't have a lot of quickness or size on defense but for whatever reason his presence actually slightly improves the defense of the Suns. It's probably a combination of coaching and player experience of doing all the little things that fans don't notice.
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Feb 23, 2004
9778 posts
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Toronto
Mintmaster wrote:
Mar 11th, 2008 4:17 pm
I use the same stats all the time, and don't combine them in any way. These are raw results of the team. If I had known these stats existed a couple years ago, I would have appreciated Kobe more in 2005-6 because they show how important he was despite my claims of the Lakers not getting any more points whether he shoots or someone else does.

If you want to make some argument against it, go ahead. Don't cop out by making some half-assed attempt at childishly insulting me.

The fact is that through nearly 3,000 minutes of play, the Raptors are much better with Moon on the floor. Only Bosh makes a bigger difference. When Moon was resting, the team outscored its opponents by an average of 1 point per 100 possessions. When he was on the floor, they outscored them by 8. Again, other than Bosh, nobody come close to that kind of impact on the Raptors.

Want to see the list of players in the NBA with the greatest impact between being on the floor and on the bench?
http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.p ... order=DESC

At the top you have Nash, Jamison, LeBron, Dirk, Dwight, and Kobe. Keep going and there are no flukes anywhere on that list. Maybe some underappreciated guys, but that's it.

What is your definition of valuable? To me it's very straightforward. If you're there the team does better than when you're not. If your absence doesn't affect the team, in the end how important are you really?

Calderon is the superficially the obvious choice for second most valuable, but his presence really makes the defense worse too, so overall we don't gain much. Ford is the opposite (obviously), but to a smaller degree. IMO Calderon's defense is fixable to some degree so he's still worth signing.
I'm not disputing what you wrote, as I do think Moon is a steal for the Raps, but just to play devil's advocare you could argue that Moon is on the floor at times with a better surrounding cast vs. humphries, who is on the floor with other bench players. And then to play devil's advocate on myself, you could then say that humphries plays against the opposing team's scrubs, while Moon is playing against more elite players.

Anyways, I'm all about value added. Are there better SF in the league? hell yea. but, are there better SF's at the same equivalent salary? maybe a few? and then you take into account the intangibles like attitude, heart, and what not, and how he fits into our system, and I say Moon is a keeper.
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Jul 12, 2006
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moon couldn't guard aaron mckie if his life depended on it...face it sure he gets blocks ...i don't get what is his problem...his size and athleticism is there but his two cent brain isn't

it's evident in his trust for his teamates to play up on his man and trust the guys behind u but also his decisions on offence...drive to the basket..shiet we have like a whole team of shooters we don't need another one...reminds me of a poor mans vince carter...so athletic can finish above rim but won't drive and settle for jumpers..
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Oct 1, 2004
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Dash wrote:
Mar 11th, 2008 5:08 pm
you could argue that Moon is on the floor at times with a better surrounding cast vs. humphries
That is the most important thing about +/-. It is a hard tool to use because every player's situation is different. Bosh's +- would be better if he got to play with another Chris bosh, like Jose and Jamario etc get to. Moon plays with better players, but he is also playing AGAINST better players. There are different ways to look at it, but the fact is that it is a stat that should be used with caution, especially to prove points because there are a lot of things wrong or faulty with it.

I mean, Rashand McCants, Noah and Wally are ALL ahead of TIM DUNCAN. Thadeus Young is 8th in the league. Jamario is ahead of Manu.
:mad: :lol:
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Jul 19, 2005
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Toronto
Rocketo wrote:
Mar 11th, 2008 8:13 pm
moon couldn't guard aaron mckie if his life depended on it...face it sure he gets blocks ...i don't get what is his problem...his size and athleticism is there but his two cent brain isn't

it's evident in his trust for his teamates to play up on his man and trust the guys behind u but also his decisions on offence...drive to the basket..shiet we have like a whole team of shooters we don't need another one...reminds me of a poor mans vince carter...so athletic can finish above rim but won't drive and settle for jumpers..
somebody doesn't like moon.ehehehe

he's not a bad defender at all... he's not the best man defender, but imo he's the best weakside help defender on our team. maybe that's what he's thinking, i'm long enough, can jump high enough to challenge a players shot even if i'm playing off him?!?!?!
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Feb 23, 2004
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honestly, his on ball defense isn't that bad. I don't see how people are saying he's not a good defender. I think that's what I'm going to watch most in tonight's game.

on a sidenote: what the hell is up with Gooden's new look??? He looks whack
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Jan 8, 2007
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Rocketo wrote:
Mar 11th, 2008 8:13 pm
moon couldn't guard aaron mckie if his life depended on it...face it sure he gets blocks ...i don't get what is his problem...his size and athleticism is there but his two cent brain isn't

it's evident in his trust for his teamates to play up on his man and trust the guys behind u but also his decisions on offence...drive to the basket..shiet we have like a whole team of shooters we don't need another one...reminds me of a poor mans vince carter...so athletic can finish above rim but won't drive and settle for jumpers..
He gets steals too. The thing I notice is that he has great instincts to jump gaps, reach-in and weak-side help to get blocks but he isn't the best man on man defender. I think that he doesn't get low enough in his defensive stance and move laterally as well. Playing in lower leagues you don't need the best stance to get things done since he is so athletic.
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Jan 17, 2002
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Psubs wrote:
Mar 11th, 2008 11:22 pm
Who can actually like Kbobe? The guy is a whiny cry-baby who's so whipped by his wife. :lol: Sure he's talented but Britney Spears was a great popstar (I did not say singer).
If I had a wife who looked like that I'd be gladly be whipped too :-)

Any predictions on whether TJ takes the most FGA/Min played on the Raptors tonight?
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Jul 30, 2006
808 posts
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Toronto
Psubs wrote:
Mar 11th, 2008 11:22 pm
Who can actually like Kbobe? The guy is a whiny cry-baby who's so whipped by his wife. :lol: Sure he's talented but Britney Spears was a great popstar (I did not say singer).
im probly gonna get flamed for this like in the past > :( > :( but kobe is actually respected and not liked because he can single handedly turn a game around. this is the same reason lebron doesnt get as much respect because he has only done it a handful times.

no one else in the league are as dangerous as lbj or kobe in the 4th quarter
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Jul 29, 2006
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when primo threw it down and got the threw point play someone yelled out "dats gangsta!" LOL im not sure who probably someone on the raptors bench since it was on that side. :lol:
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Feb 23, 2004
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rey1867 wrote:
Mar 11th, 2008 11:28 pm
im probly gonna get flamed for this like in the past > :( > :( but kobe is actually respected and not liked because he can single handedly turn a game around. this is the same reason lebron doesnt get as much respect because he has only done it a handful times.

no one else in the league are as dangerous as lbj or kobe in the 4th quarter
what a surprise to hear from you about Kobe..... :lol:

Man, what's up with Fisher? he's really exposing our lack of perimeter D
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Jul 22, 2005
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TJ is frusturatin me more and more as I watch him play..his 11 minutes of play before the half was just horrible..sure he got the points..but he just tries to take over the game..also he doesnt seem to be in control of the ball..I hope smitch plays calderon throughout the second half..

I am going to sleep now..since i have seen kobey on fire and i know the raps r gonna lose now (shouldnt have given him the flagrant foul) > :(

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