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Scarborough Subway...

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  • May 11th, 2017 8:44 pm
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kevindurant1 wrote:
Mar 12th, 2017 11:51 pm
So lets tear down all the subway lines and close all the stations. Just run a bunch of bus since its cheaper.

Yup, lets just keep going backwards while the population and ridership grows. :facepalm:
Are you that thick? Unless they tear down Scarborough and Etobicoke and redevelop it into a metropolis, there is NO need for a subway. The population density isn't even there to support such idea and there is little to no room for more development. That's why they've planned just one a measly stop for the Scarborough subway... after 100000 years of debate and planning because the existing SRT stops inbetween STC and Kennedy have pathetic ridership numbers since inception.
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kevindurant1 wrote:
Mar 12th, 2017 11:51 pm
So lets tear down all the subway lines and close all the stations. Just run a bunch of bus since its cheaper.

Yup, lets just keep going backwards while the population and ridership grows. :facepalm:
that is the problem. people like you use very poor attempts at using fallacious arguments to try to avoid the issue versus basing decisions and arguments on actual facts.

sadly, that is what our mayor is doing.

ignoring the facts about ridership and costs and saying "we have to build it" "we have been waiting long enough" etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

the numbers do not support a subway extension to STC. the numbers also did not support a subway on Sheppard. the numbers before it was built did not support it and now it has been running since 2002 and STILL it has no where near the number of people riding it to justify the cost. WHY, people in the area drive to work. guess what the study says about those that live around the one stop subway...they too will drive to work.

putting LRT in which would have been fully funded by the provincial government is hardly going backwards.

putting a subway in where the numbers don't support it, is an emotional decision.
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Spectre26 wrote:
Mar 13th, 2017 12:28 am
Are you that thick? Unless they tear down Scarborough and Etobicoke and redevelop it into a metropolis, there is NO need for a subway. The population density isn't even there to support such idea and there is little to no room for more development. That's why they've planned just one a measly stop for the Scarborough subway... after 100000 years of debate and planning because the existing SRT stops inbetween STC and Kennedy have pathetic ridership numbers since inception.
It has pathetic numbers because people avoid it at all costs. I do. Hate taking the thing.

Scarborough has comparable density to North York and overall size, and that's AFTER North York got the benefit of decades of Subway stations. Seems like the elite wannabes (you know, the ones that want to be like old Nobility and send their kids to the best private schools in Central Toronto but can really now only afford condos along the Yonge Subway line) just want to keep enriching themselves and looking down on the steerage in Scarborough.

Huge development in Warden Station. Scarborough Town Center Stn also has all those condos because of the SRT. As mentioned, look at Downsview area. Many were probably playing with lego to know what it was like before. If Scarborough got a fraction of the same benefit as North York did over the years, it would be ahead in terms of development (it's just barely behind today despite North York having a HUGE advantage). All those subway stops along East York would not be justified today. There's a complete lack of density to support each station. Coxwell vs Pape? Please.

Face it. Many of you are elitist quasi discriminatory (nice replacement word that starts with R) fools.. go take a ride all the way to Town Center during rush hour. Take your spouse/gf/partner and record your reactions. I dare you guys.

Now, the way budgets, scamming, overpricing, works today, any major capital project costs 10-15x more vs projects done many decades ago (inflation adjusted). While the immediate economics don't make sense, and even I, as a Scarbarian don't like the 1 stop solution, this is the revenge of the Steerage people after not getting it's fair dues vs a North York.
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Spectre26 wrote:
Mar 13th, 2017 12:28 am
Are you that thick? Unless they tear down Scarborough and Etobicoke and redevelop it into a metropolis, there is NO need for a subway. The population density isn't even there to support such idea and there is little to no room for more development. That's why they've planned just one a measly stop for the Scarborough subway... after 100000 years of debate and planning because the existing SRT stops inbetween STC and Kennedy have pathetic ridership numbers since inception.
Are there brownfield sites in Scarborough and Etobicoke that can be redeveloped to be more high density? Using Google maps, it looks like the Golden Mile area in Scarborough can be redeveloped into a higher density neighborhood. It looks depressing from what I've seen in Google maps. If they build a subway line through there, it can provide as a catalyst for high-density development in that area.

Public transport is a great way to regenerate an area. Using London, UK as an example, the pic below is Canary Wharf in 1986:

Image

An underground station opened there in 1990. Twenty-two years later in 2012 is what you have below with the docks kept intact. There are more developments in the pipeline that will double or triple the size, with a brand new station for a different line. All this won't be possible without that one subway station.

Image
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heymikey wrote:
Mar 13th, 2017 12:34 pm
Are there brownfield sites in Scarborough and Etobicoke that can be redeveloped to be more high density? Using Google maps, it looks like the Golden Mile area in Scarborough can be redeveloped into a higher density neighborhood. It looks depressing from what I've seen in Google maps. If they build a subway line through there, it can provide as a catalyst for high-density development in that area.

Public transport is a great way to regenerate an area. Using London, UK as an example, the pic below is Canary Wharf in 1986:

Image

An underground station opened there in 1990. Twenty-two years later in 2012 is what you have below with the docks kept intact. There are more developments in the pipeline that will double or triple the size, with a brand new station for a different line. All this won't be possible without that one subway station.

Image
The Eglinton LRT will be going through the golden mile and is already spurring development. There are proposals for large condo projects replacing the golden mile plaza as well as Eglinton Square and some others.
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Spectre26 wrote:
Mar 13th, 2017 12:28 am
Are you that thick? Unless they tear down Scarborough and Etobicoke and redevelop it into a metropolis, there is NO need for a subway. The population density isn't even there to support such idea and there is little to no room for more development. That's why they've planned just one a measly stop for the Scarborough subway... after 100000 years of debate and planning because the existing SRT stops inbetween STC and Kennedy have pathetic ridership numbers since inception.
The ridership numbers @ STC Station support the station. The bulk of the RT riders are going from STC to Kennedy in the morning and Kennedy to STC in the afternoon. I've seen people at Lawrence East station not being able to get on during the rush hour because the trains are filled from STC already. You can blame the city planning folks for putting the RT in the back of warehouses, factories and underneath bridges where it makes it almost impossible to redevelop but STC itself has been growing, and sadly it has slowed because of the capacity on the RT. When the Sheppard Subway opened back in 2002, the ridership between Sheppard Subway and the RT were almost equal 42000 vs 40000. Now we are in 2016, the Sheppard subway has increase to 51000 and the the ridership on the RT has flat lined in the last 14 years not because Scarborough isn't growning, but because the RT can't handle anymore passengers. Further to this, it causes people to think that the RT just plain sucks because the city doesn't even care about it any longer. Ask anyone who lives in Scarborough whether they like the RT. Everyone will give you the same answer. It smells, it's loud, it's old, it's annoying to transfer for a pointless reason. I know many who rather drive to Kennedy or Finch directly. For a regular person who works at Yonge and College, and lives at Mccowan and Steeles. What's the best way to work? Most would take the Steeles bus to Finch Station, and then take the subway to College. This trip takes 1h and 30 min. However, if you take the Mccowan Bus to STC, then the RT to Kennedy, then Line 2 to Bloor, then Line 1 to College this trip takes 1 hour and 15 minutes and that includes all the transfers. Why is it that it's faster, but people rather go to Finch Station? because it's simple, and they rather avoid the RT. That's why

You should get your eyes checked because there is ample land in the Scarborough Centre to redevelop with a lot of potential and minimal cost. Lots of parking lots which can be rezoned for high rises and office towers. Check out this overlay:
Image

Scarborough Centre Spans from brimley to bellamy west to east, and 401 to ellesmere north to south. If you put that footprint over downtown, that equals from Spadina to Jarvis west to east, and Elm st to King streen North to South. That's not enough land for you to redevelop?
mkjr wrote:
Mar 13th, 2017 8:26 am
that is the problem. people like you use very poor attempts at using fallacious arguments to try to avoid the issue versus basing decisions and arguments on actual facts.

sadly, that is what our mayor is doing.

ignoring the facts about ridership and costs and saying "we have to build it" "we have been waiting long enough" etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

the numbers do not support a subway extension to STC. the numbers also did not support a subway on Sheppard. the numbers before it was built did not support it and now it has been running since 2002 and STILL it has no where near the number of people riding it to justify the cost. WHY, people in the area drive to work. guess what the study says about those that live around the one stop subway...they too will drive to work.

putting LRT in which would have been fully funded by the provincial government is hardly going backwards.

putting a subway in where the numbers don't support it, is an emotional decision.
What people don't understand, this is a subway station, not a subway line. How many passengers do you need before it gets built? If STC has 26000 riders on an average weekeday, and lets just say 2/3 of it using the RT, that's 17000 riders using the RT which doesn't sound far-fetched at all when the total users on the RT are 40000. The amount of riders at STC going on the RT is gotta be more than 17000, but we'll use 17000 as an example. That's more than enough to support a subway station at the current ridership levels no? Do you want a terminus station to have so many riders that the people further down the line won't be able to get a seat, or even fit?
Last edited by EPcjay on Mar 13th, 2017 1:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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mkjr wrote:
Mar 13th, 2017 8:26 am
that is the problem. people like you use very poor attempts at using fallacious arguments to try to avoid the issue versus basing decisions and arguments on actual facts.

sadly, that is what our mayor is doing.

putting LRT in which would have been fully funded by the provincial government is hardly going backwards.

putting a subway in where the numbers don't support it, is an emotional decision.
You were the one who said busses are cheaper thats why its better than subway. You were making an argument for it. Walking is cheaper too but we use cars to get from point A to point B.
the numbers do not support a subway extension to STC. the numbers also did not support a subway on Sheppard
You have no clue on what you are talking about. Numbers didnt support downsview station either. Ever been to wilson station in the 90's?. I have. It was fine then but its pretty clear now that line needed to be extended.
putting LRT in which would have been fully funded by the provincial government is hardly going backwards.


I am not against LRT. You are arguing for busses not LRT. Two different things. My argument about that is if you can get LRT, why not do it the right way and go for subways?. We should have it by now and there would be no debate about having BRT/LRT. It might be costly but its a simple solution. You dont want to wait until 2027 and finally realize Toronto needs more subways. IT WILL NEED MORE SUBWAYS.
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The difference is that the subway to downsview was built cheaply by building most of it at grade rather than tunnelling it. If they did the same in Scarborough to save money, I'd be all for the Scarborough subway.
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LNahid2000 wrote:
Mar 13th, 2017 2:10 pm
The difference is that the subway to downsview was built cheaply by building most of it at grade rather than tunnelling it. If they did the same in Scarborough to save money, I'd be all for the Scarborough subway.
What about Islinton to Kipling or Warden to Kennedy? They both were very useful extensions.
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EPcjay wrote:
Mar 13th, 2017 2:47 pm
What about Islinton to Kipling or Warden to Kennedy? They both were very useful extensions.
Islington to Kipling was also built at grade. Warden to Kennedy was built partly at grade. This extension will be completely underground which is way more expensive.
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LNahid2000 wrote:
Mar 13th, 2017 2:10 pm
The difference is that the subway to downsview was built cheaply by building most of it at grade rather than tunnelling it. If they did the same in Scarborough to save money, I'd be all for the Scarborough subway.
One of the major wonders I've had is why the subway route did not take the same route as the RT through all those warehouse/Industrial areas above grade? Unless they've already figured on development of these lands for other purposes once the subway is built.
One reason for not going above grade used to be problems with the older signalling equipment in our harsh winter weather.
I imagine the technologies today can resolve this.
Even if it couldn't,simply cover over the areas with the sensitive equipment.
A high percentage of the New York subway system is above grade.
They are generally a bit warmer than us but still see cold days and snowstorms, snowfall etc.
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gh05t wrote:
Mar 13th, 2017 8:26 pm
One of the major wonders I've had is why the subway route did not take the same route as the RT through all those warehouse/Industrial areas above grade? Unless they've already figured on development of these lands for other purposes once the subway is built.
One reason for not going above grade used to be problems with the older signalling equipment in our harsh winter weather.
I imagine the technologies today can resolve this.
Even if it couldn't,simply cover over the areas with the sensitive equipment.
A high percentage of the New York subway system is above grade.
They are generally a bit warmer than us but still see cold days and snowstorms, snowfall etc.
Because it would kill ridership (and possibly even technical feasibility) for John Tory's SmartTrack which would run in the same corridor. Building this subway underground and spending over $3 billion on it is 100% politics.
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gh05t wrote:
Mar 13th, 2017 8:26 pm
One of the major wonders I've had is why the subway route did not take the same route as the RT through all those warehouse/Industrial areas above grade? Unless they've already figured on development of these lands for other purposes once the subway is built.
One reason for not going above grade used to be problems with the older signalling equipment in our harsh winter weather.
I imagine the technologies today can resolve this.
Even if it couldn't,simply cover over the areas with the sensitive equipment.
A high percentage of the New York subway system is above grade.
They are generally a bit warmer than us but still see cold days and snowstorms, snowfall etc.
The main reason was they wanted to keep the RT open instead of sending everyone to buses for the 5 years it would need to build.
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EPcjay wrote:
Mar 13th, 2017 1:55 pm
The ridership numbers @ STC Station support the station. The bulk of the RT riders are going from STC to Kennedy in the morning and Kennedy to STC in the afternoon. I've seen people at Lawrence East station not being able to get on during the rush hour because the trains are filled from STC already. You can blame the city planning folks for putting the RT in the back of warehouses, factories and underneath bridges where it makes it almost impossible to redevelop but STC itself has been growing, and sadly it has slowed because of the capacity on the RT. When the Sheppard Subway opened back in 2002, the ridership between Sheppard Subway and the RT were almost equal 42000 vs 40000. Now we are in 2016, the Sheppard subway has increase to 51000 and the the ridership on the RT has flat lined in the last 14 years not because Scarborough isn't growning, but because the RT can't handle anymore passengers. Further to this, it causes people to think that the RT just plain sucks because the city doesn't even care about it any longer. Ask anyone who lives in Scarborough whether they like the RT. Everyone will give you the same answer. It smells, it's loud, it's old, it's annoying to transfer for a pointless reason. I know many who rather drive to Kennedy or Finch directly. For a regular person who works at Yonge and College, and lives at Mccowan and Steeles. What's the best way to work? Most would take the Steeles bus to Finch Station, and then take the subway to College. This trip takes 1h and 30 min. However, if you take the Mccowan Bus to STC, then the RT to Kennedy, then Line 2 to Bloor, then Line 1 to College this trip takes 1 hour and 15 minutes and that includes all the transfers. Why is it that it's faster, but people rather go to Finch Station? because it's simple, and they rather avoid the RT. That's why

You should get your eyes checked because there is ample land in the Scarborough Centre to redevelop with a lot of potential and minimal cost. Lots of parking lots which can be rezoned for high rises and office towers. Check out this overlay:
Image

Scarborough Centre Spans from brimley to bellamy west to east, and 401 to ellesmere north to south. If you put that footprint over downtown, that equals from Spadina to Jarvis west to east, and Elm st to King streen North to South. That's not enough land for you to redevelop?



What people don't understand, this is a subway station, not a subway line. How many passengers do you need before it gets built? If STC has 26000 riders on an average weekeday, and lets just say 2/3 of it using the RT, that's 17000 riders using the RT which doesn't sound far-fetched at all when the total users on the RT are 40000. The amount of riders at STC going on the RT is gotta be more than 17000, but we'll use 17000 as an example. That's more than enough to support a subway station at the current ridership levels no? Do you want a terminus station to have so many riders that the people further down the line won't be able to get a seat, or even fit?
Don't even try to reason with these elitist racist fools only looking out for themselves. You're right. Tons of people that drive to Kennedy, such as myself to avoid the RT. People packed like Sardines. Tons and Tons of buses all throughout Scarborough to avoid the RT. The main point of the subway was those people had to transfer and take long bus rides, on crowded, congested roads to get to Kennedy or an RT stop. Basically, the MOST amount of people in this WHOLE city that takes the longest to get to the downtown core. This impairs any sort of real investment and development in the region which just barely trails North York in size and population density.
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