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Scarborough Subway...

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  • Mar 30th, 2017 7:55 pm
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Deal Fanatic
Nov 1, 2006
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Good opinion piece in Toronto Star: Time for fact-based decision-making on the Scarborough subway written by R. Michael Warren who was TTC chief general manager as well as a corporate director, Ontario deputy minister and Canada Post CEO.

City, provincial and federal taxpayers will all be on the hook for the runaway subway costs, which could reach $3.93 billion – up from $2 billion only a year ago. We should insist through our MPs, MPPs and city councillors on knowing the results of an objective comparison before the mayor and council stumble further down this road.

and

Last year council approved reducing the subway to one-stop from three in order to reduce the price to $2 billion. That would have freed up $1.6 billion for an 18-stop LRT along Eglinton Ave. East. That council decision is no longer viable. The cost of the subway alone is now forecast to balloon to $3.93 billion. This exceeds the total government approved funding envelope of $3.56 billion.

and

The worst transit boondoggle in the city’s history can be avoided by asking for the comparative analysis missing since council began debating this issue. Tory should also make sure the next council vote is not flawed by a misleading TTC report.
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Aug 21, 2007
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that is what people seem to be ignoring. facts!!!!
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Nov 11, 2008
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Nothing to see, Toronto Star running articles against the subway for the millionth time. blah blah blah. We all know if the city votes against it during next council meeting, the province will do it's own thing and get this going. They aren't going to back down from it. Even the PC leader himself supports the subway. So, if Wynne doesn't win, and PCs win next election, it's not going back to LRT.
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Apr 8, 2013
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mkjr wrote:
Mar 15th, 2017 2:46 pm
that is what people seem to be ignoring. facts!!!!
Wrong.

We all know that subway will be costly. Thats why we have this never ending debate. We know the right solution is subway but its expensive.

If you want cheap, lets go with your solution and use busses. Tear down the subway system and replace it with more busses.
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Jul 10, 2003
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kevindurant1 wrote:
Mar 15th, 2017 10:44 pm
We know the right solution is subway but its expensive.
Nope.

The right solution is regional rail. This would get people from Scarborough downtown in under 30 minutes. But people in Toronto want subways because it's all they know.
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LNahid2000 wrote:
Mar 15th, 2017 11:08 pm
Nope.

The right solution is regional rail. This would get people from Scarborough downtown in under 30 minutes. But people in Toronto want subways because it's all they know.
Regional rail is available in Scarborough. Millken, Agincourt, Scarborough, Eglinton Go, Rouge Hill go stations, but if it wasn't so damm expensive, it would be an option. But for a person who lives in Scarborough, or Toronto for that matter to downtown, its 5.65 a trip * 2 * 18 working days in a month, 203$ a month. As for the TTC $3 x 2 x 18 = $108
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EPcjay wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 8:29 am
Regional rail is available in Scarborough. Millken, Agincourt, Scarborough, Eglinton Go, Rouge Hill go stations, but if it wasn't so damm expensive, it would be an option. But for a person who lives in Scarborough, or Toronto for that matter to downtown, its 5.65 a trip * 2 * 18 working days in a month, 203$ a month. As for the TTC $3 x 2 x 18 = $108
$3.35 billion can pay for a lot of regional rail trips at ttc prices. We need to think outside the box a little. Fare integration for 100 years discounted to present value would probably cost less than $3.35 billion.

Metrolinx has plans to integrate GO and TTC prices either way, so this shouldn't really be a concern when making a decision regarding the Scarborough subway.
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LNahid2000 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 8:38 am
$3.35 billion can pay for a lot of regional rail trips at ttc prices. We need to think outside the box a little. Fare integration for 100 years discounted to present value would probably cost less than $3.35 billion.

Metrolinx has plans to integrate GO and TTC prices either way, so this shouldn't really be a concern when making a decision regarding the Scarborough subway.
And 3.35 billion can run a lot of buses with 20 second frequencies for a long time but it doesn't solve the problem long term. People need to realize it gets harder and more expensive to build later, much like the DRL which is pegged at 6 billion dollars at minimum for 7km.
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EPcjay wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 10:56 am
And 3.35 billion can run a lot of buses with 20 second frequencies for a long time but it doesn't solve the problem long term. People need to realize it gets harder and more expensive to build later, much like the DRL which is pegged at 6 billion dollars at minimum for 7km.
I never mentioned using that money to run buses. I said we could use that money to improve regional rail instead. Why are subways for long term but regional rail isn't?
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Nov 1, 2006
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kevindurant1 wrote:
Mar 15th, 2017 10:44 pm
Wrong.

We all know that subway will be costly. Thats why we have this never ending debate. We know the right solution is subway but its expensive.

If you want cheap, lets go with your solution and use busses. Tear down the subway system and replace it with more busses.
It's not wrong at all. How does reducing the number of stops from 5 to 1 improve anything?

The reality appears to be that the City and the TTC have been instructed to distort the facts to bolster Tory's arguments in favour of the one-stop subway.

The correct thing to do is to renovate the existing SRT and extend LRT from there as well as go ahead with the Eglinton East LRT. All of this could be done for far less than the cost of the one stop subway and would open up fast transit to huge numbers of people:
LRT network (Previously proposed)
Cost: The Scarborough LRT fully-funded by the province was costed at $1.48 billion in 2010 dollars. The Eglinton East LRT is estimated at $1.67 billion
Stops: 25, over 2 light rail lines that would be 7 stops and 18 stops, both connecting to Kennedy Station with an improved transfer
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LNahid2000 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 11:23 am
I never mentioned using that money to run buses. I said we could use that money to improve regional rail instead. Why are subways for long term but regional rail isn't?
You are touching on different issues here. Regional rail and local transit are very different animals and have to be treated as such. Regional rail is like the highway system whereas local transit is like the network of City streets. They work hand-in-hand but are planned, provisioned and operated differently.
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LNahid2000 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 11:23 am
I never mentioned using that money to run buses. I said we could use that money to improve regional rail instead. Why are subways for long term but regional rail isn't?
Its been explained to you over and over again.
But people in Toronto want subways because it's all they know.
False. We have busses, streetcars, metro rail and commuter rail. When I used to live in rexdale, I used a bus > bus > train > streetcar just to get to work.

People in Toronto want subway because its whats needed. You want to build it now instead of 20-30 years from now. Like I said before, if you plan to live here you should be FOR having an extensive subway system. The rest is just a bandaid for whats to come. Its thriving city.
Diversity Is Our Strength 😎
Deal Fanatic
Nov 1, 2006
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Toronto
EPcjay wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 10:56 am
And 3.35 billion can run a lot of buses with 20 second frequencies for a long time but it doesn't solve the problem long term. People need to realize it gets harder and more expensive to build later, much like the DRL which is pegged at 6 billion dollars at minimum for 7km.
The DRL is just another pipedream that will be shown to be unnecessary if more LRT is implemented. For example, an LRT running along the Lakeshore and interconnecting with other North-South LRT's would take huge numbers of passengers away from the Bloor-Danforth line.
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kevindurant1 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:09 pm
People in Toronto want subway because its whats needed. You want to build it now instead of 20-30 years from now. Like I said before, if you plan to live here you should be FOR having an extensive subway system. The rest is just a bandaid for whats to come. Its thriving city.
First, there is no evidence that a subway to STC is needed. LRT is not a Band-Aid and, if you think it is, I suggest you visit some of the many cities throughout the world where it has been successfully, inexpensively and quickly implemented. And, one other thing, in Cities with LRT, there tends to be urban rejuvenation along the LRT lines increasing the vibrancy of those Cities.

What is missing is a well integrated transit plan for the City. In principle, I don't have an issue with extending subway lines but it shouldn't be done by reducing service. And that is exactly what is happening with the current proposal.
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