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Scarborough Subway...

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  • May 11th, 2017 8:44 pm
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Jimbobs wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:08 pm
You are touching on different issues here. Regional rail and local transit are very different animals and have to be treated as such. Regional rail is like the highway system whereas local transit is like the network of City streets. They work hand-in-hand but are planned, provisioned and operated differently.
Yet the extension to Scarborough has further stop spacing than regional rail. It's like we're cramming regional rail into an existing subway. They don't need to be planned, provisioned, and operated differently. Take a look at Paris' RER for example, which is fully integrated into their subway system.
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Jimbobs wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:21 pm
First, there is no evidence that a subway to STC is needed. LRT is not a Band-Aid and, if you think it is, I suggest you visit some of the many cities throughout the world where it has been successfully, inexpensively and quickly implemented. And, one other thing, in Cities with LRT, there tends to be urban rejuvenation along the LRT lines increasing the vibrancy of those Cities.

What is missing is a well integrated transit plan for the City. In principle, I don't have an issue with extending subway lines but it shouldn't be done by reducing service. And that is exactly what is happening with the current proposal.
Scarborough have been wanting subway for a long time. I remember 10 years ago, they have been talking about it. Do you know more than the people that actually live in the community?.

You do not need to travel all over the world to see if LRT would work or not. That is quite silly actually.

Ok, lets use that same logic. I rode the subway for more than 14 years. It works for Toronto. Lets build more. Face With Tears Of JoyFace With Tears Of JoyFace With Tears Of Joy
First, there is no evidence that a subway to STC is needed.
There is no "evidence" we need subways either or highways. Why did we build it?. Its part of building a thriving environment.

Again for the 3rd time If you plan to live in Toronto. You NEED more subways. Population is not going down, its going to keep going up and up and up. You want to build it now. Its actually cheaper instead of building it 20-30 years later.
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kevindurant1 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:09 pm
Its been explained to you over and over again.



False. We have busses, streetcars, metro rail and commuter rail. When I used to live in rexdale, I used a bus > bus > train > streetcar just to get to work.

People in Toronto want subway because its whats needed. You want to build it now instead of 20-30 years from now. Like I said before, if you plan to live here you should be FOR having an extensive subway system. The rest is just a bandaid for whats to come. Its thriving city.
You still haven't explained why a subway is needed more than regional rail. Why is regional rail a band aid?

And I should have said that subways are the only good transit that we've seen in Toronto.
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Jimbobs wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:04 pm
It's not wrong at all. How does reducing the number of stops from 5 to 1 improve anything?

The reality appears to be that the City and the TTC have been instructed to distort the facts to bolster Tory's arguments in favour of the one-stop subway.

The correct thing to do is to renovate the existing SRT and extend LRT from there as well as go ahead with the Eglinton East LRT. All of this could be done for far less than the cost of the one stop subway and would open up fast transit to huge numbers of people:
LRT network (Previously proposed)
Cost: The Scarborough LRT fully-funded by the province was costed at $1.48 billion in 2010 dollars. The Eglinton East LRT is estimated at $1.67 billion
Stops: 25, over 2 light rail lines that would be 7 stops and 18 stops, both connecting to Kennedy Station with an improved transfer
Lets count again, Mccowan is just an arms way from STC, so thats not really a stop. Midland and Ellesmere are underused and with the subway alignment, does not need a stop as where the subway crosses (@mccowan and ellesmere). This is really close to STC as well. That leaves Lawrence. Lawrence may have a stop, or not. There are plans to rough it in depending on the smart track. If smart track covers this stop, why build a subway stop for it? It's one or the other, not both.

The SRT is over capacity as it is, and LRT will give it a boost in capacity, but what happens when the LRT goes over capacity? Don't say that it wont, because we all know it will one day. It took roughly 16 years for the SRT to reach capacity 1985-2001, and that's not that long either with the terrible alignment it was placed under.

Look at Vancouver's Canada line. It's overcapacity and they don't know what to do. They can buy more trains, but the stations themselves are built small so the stations can't handle the volume. If they planned for the line to grow, this would not be a problem in the first place.

We're not talking about a subway to Timbuktu, Scarborough City Centre can and will exceed expectations in the future.
Last edited by EPcjay on Mar 16th, 2017 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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LNahid2000 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:37 pm
Yet the extension to Scarborough has further stop spacing than regional rail. It's like we're cramming regional rail into an existing subway. They don't need to be planned, provisioned, and operated differently. Take a look at Paris' RER for example, which is fully integrated into their subway system.
What are you proposing with regional rail? How can it help Scarborough City Centre grow? Spur a line from smart track? Until that's in the books, that's not worth arguing.
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EPcjay wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:57 pm
Lets count again, Mccowan is just an arms way from STC, so thats not really a stop. Midland and Ellesmere are underused and with the subway alignment, does not need a stop as where the subway crosses (@mccowan and ellesmere). This is really close to STC as well. That leaves Lawrence. Lawrence may have a stop, or not. There are plans to rough it in depending on the smart track. If smart track covers this stop, why build a subway stop for it? It's one or the other, not both.

The SRT is over capacity as it is, and LRT will give it a boost in capacity, but what happens when the LRT goes over capacity? Don't say that it wont, because we all know it will one day. It took roughly 16 years for the SRT to reach capacity 1985-2001, and that's not that long either with the terrible alignment it was placed under.

Look at Vancouver's Canada line. It's overcapacity and they don't know what to do. They can buy more trains, but the stations themselves are built small so the stations can't handle the volume. If they planned for the line to grow, this would not be a problem in the first place.

We're not talking about a subway to Timbuktu, Scarborough City Centre can and will exceed expectations in the future.
The SRT wouldn't have been over capacity of the ttc maintained it properly. Studies show that the LRT wouldn't be over capacity for a long time, and even when it gets close to capacity, we could build new LRT lines in new neighbourhoods to distribute the demand and have development in more neighbourhoods. The subway extension isn't going to generate much development when there is only one station to develop around.
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kevindurant1 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:38 pm
Scarborough have been wanting subway for a long time. I remember 10 years ago, they have been talking about it. Do you know more than the people that actually live in the community?
I know plenty of people (both residents and business owners) in Scarborough who think this one stop subway is a disaster. Some will have to get a bus or a long walk because of the reduced service. Others are destined to continue using the bus or driving instead of the speedy modern LRT they thought they were getting.
kevindurant1 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:38 pm
You do not need to travel all over the world to see if LRT would work or not. That is quite silly actually.
Maybe so but anybody suggesting that an LRT is dramatically inferior to a subway clearly doesn't understand or has never used or has never lived in a City where LRT has been introduced.
kevindurant1 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:38 pm
Ok, lets use that same logic. I rode the subway for more than 14 years. It works for Toronto. Lets build more. Face With Tears Of JoyFace With Tears Of JoyFace With Tears Of Joy
Same logic applies to walking, cycling, driving, streetcars, buses, LRT, subways etc. It's a case of "horses for courses": some modes are more suitable for certain situations. In the case of Scarborough, LRT is the most suitable solution.
kevindurant1 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:38 pm
There is no "evidence" we need subways either or highways. Why did we build it?. Its part of building a thriving environment.
Evidence in the case of planning is based on traffic, density and development projections. It is always used and is available for all highway planning. In the case of Scarborough, the evidence is that a subway is NOT JUSTIFIED.
kevindurant1 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:38 pm
Again for the 3rd time If you plan to live in Toronto. You NEED more subways. Population is not going down, its going to keep going up and up and up. You want to build it now. Its actually cheaper instead of building it 20-30 years later.
Repeating the same incorrect statement over and over doesn't make it right. We have subways and they function just fine - no issue there! The strategy should be to roll out LRT now because its appropriate, inexpensive and fast to implement. IN ADDITION, when and where subway extensions are justified, we get on with that project. I know this has been framed by many as an either, or argument but I don't see it that way.
Last edited by Jimbobs on Mar 16th, 2017 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LNahid2000 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 2:14 pm
The SRT wouldn't have been over capacity of the ttc maintained it properly. Studies show that the LRT wouldn't be over capacity for a long time, and even when it gets close to capacity, we could build new LRT lines in new neighbourhoods to distribute the demand and have development in more neighbourhoods. The subway extension isn't going to generate much development when there is only one station to develop around.
Agreed! The SRT was pretty much allowed to stagnate right from the beginning with only necessary maintenance carried out. LRT extensions and/or additional lines are relatively easy and inexpensive to add.
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LNahid2000 wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 1:39 pm
And I should have said that subways are the only good transit that we've seen in Toronto.
Not at all! Streetcars (especially the new cars which are essentially LRT rolling stock) are fine on some/all parts of most routes. Buses are fine for low volume areas and as feeders to subway lines. Horses for courses ...
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Jimbobs wrote:
Mar 16th, 2017 2:22 pm
I know plenty of people (both residents and business owners) in Scarborough who think this one stop subway is a disaster. Some will have to get a bus or a long walk because of the reduced service. Others are destined to continue using the bus or driving instead of the speedy modern LRT they thought they were getting.
Maybe so but anybody suggesting that an LRT is dramatically inferior to a subway clearly doesn't understand or has never used or has never lived in a City where LRT has been introduced.

Same logic applies to walking, cycling, driving, streetcars, buses, LRT, subways etc. It's a case of "horses for courses": some modes are more suitable for certain situations. In the case of Scarborough, LRT is the most suitable solution.

Evidence in the case of planning is based on traffic, density and development projections. It is always used and is available for all highway planning. In the case of Scarborough, the evidence is that a subway is NOT JUSTIFIED.

Repeating the same incorrect statement over and over doesn't make it right. We have subways and they function just fine - no issue there! The strategy should be to roll out LRT now because its appropriate, inexpensive and fast to implement. IN ADDITION, when and where subway extensions are justified, we get on with that project. I know this has been framed by many as an either, or argument but I don't see it that way.

First of all, what reduced service? Have you even been to the area where they are closing the stations? It doesn't even sound like you've step foot where the stations are to even comment who will be affected. Lets take a look at the stations that will be closing. Average numebr of riders taken from the 2014 report

Mccowan station, about 3900 users. What's around there? One condo or 2 condos and an office tower. Distance to STC is around than 500 meters. THe office tower provides a free shuttle to STC in the morning and afternoon. Buses 133, 38, 129, 130, 131, 9, 134, 16 drive by the station before getting to STC. Will the closure of this station affect much? No.

Midland Station - 2400 users - Majority of the riders come from Kennedy Station or arrive by bus 57, which also goes to kennedy station. Whats around here? Factories, and Industrial lands. No residential subdivisons at all. This station will not be missed. Those affected who come from kennedy station can hop on the 57 @ Kennedy, and those coming to midland station can continue their ride to kennedy station. Might even be a relief because it's one less transfer.

Ellesmere Station - A whoping 1400 users. Whats around here? It's about 1km away from midland station, so the area is similar. Industrial lands, and warehouses. A small subdivision to the South that was built in the last 6 years and a old age home. Will service affect these uses? Maybe. Judging from the ridership? Probably not. The closest bus stop is closer, or equal walking distance to the station for these people. They have bus 95 they can catch.

Lawerance Station - 7400 users. This is the biggest group of users that would be affected, however, regional rail has got their stop covered, so there is no lost of service for these users.

It's thinking like this that causes the city to suffer. Just like when they planned the Scarborough Expressway, people were afraid the usage of the expressway would be too little to warrant, and it was people like you who opposed it. Well guess what? We now only have 1 major expressway to get downtown for those coming from the East; the don valley parking lot and all the other expressways (Richtree, Crosstown) could have helped the rest of the city too. Furthermore, Scarborough lost out in a lot of investment because of this. Look at Mississauga. Their city centre is very similar to Scarborough Centre when it was first started, in fact, both malls are owned by the same corporation. However, Mississauga had the network of highways QEW and 403 and 401 to grow.

So don't tell me that the numbers don't support it. The usage numbers at STC station support it being a subway stop, and it will continue to grow like all the rest of the terminus stations in the city We're not building another Sheppard line here, we're connecting a city center that has been deprived for years. The city is only going to grow even more.
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EPcjay wrote:
Mar 17th, 2017 12:11 am
First of all, what reduced service? Have you even been to the area where they are closing the stations? It doesn't even sound like you've step foot where the stations are to even comment who will be affected. Lets take a look at the stations that will be closing. Average numebr of riders taken from the 2014 report ....
Interesting conclusions here! Using your own figures, 15,100 people will be inconvenienced to some extent but they don't matter!

And if they want to go to say Eglinton, they will get Regional Rail (whatever that is) to Union and then subway north to Eglinton. What a brilliant solution! :facepalm:

You have a great future in transit planning or in the Mayor's office Face With Tears Of Joy
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If the TTC was smart, they'd sell all the land around Kennedy Stn. I mean alot of people would rather drive to Kennedy than take the SRT. Sell the land to developers, who will buy it for $1.3 billion. put in 1500 stacked townhouses at $1 mil. each. Everybody wins.
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Jimbobs wrote:
Mar 17th, 2017 12:28 am
Interesting conclusions here! Using your own figures, 15,100 people will be inconvenienced to some extent but they don't matter!

And if they want to go to say Eglinton, they will get Regional Rail (whatever that is) to Union and then subway north to Eglinton. What a brilliant solution! :facepalm:

You have a great future in transit planning or in the Mayor's office Face With Tears Of Joy
Mccowan will be covered by the STC station, so that's moot. Midland riders will continue to ride their bus from the start, Riders at Ellesmere will walk to a bus stop, instead of a station and Lawerance will either continue their bus ride or hop on regional rail.

Makes perfect sense. Like you said, why build stops where no one is using them. Ellesmere - 1400 users / 6am - 1am, 19 hours = 1 or 2 passengers per hour. If you ran a wal mart with that rate of customers you'd close in a month

edit ** Looks like the start published another article on smarttrack. according to Metroliux, Lawrence will have negative ridership if they put a stop there. LOL. Sounds like this subway project might go higher with the added subway stop now.
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at1212b wrote:
Mar 17th, 2017 12:54 am
If the TTC was smart, they'd sell all the land around Kennedy Stn. I mean alot of people would rather drive to Kennedy than take the SRT. Sell the land to developers, who will buy it for $1.3 billion. put in 1500 stacked townhouses at $1 mil. each. Everybody wins.
Ha ha. The TTC sits on land all over the City with huge potential. Not alone will they not develop it but they actively obstruct nearby developers improving the area. In at least one case, a developer wanted to build an underground connection to the nearby TTC station at his own expense. The TTC told him they wouldn't allow it even though he offered to assume all their costs. The connection would have benefitted the broader community as well as the residents of his building.

They also ignore other revenue possibilities. Their station parking lots are one example: they have parking lots which are full all day, empty all night but they won't allow people willing to pay for overnight parking use them. Also, they contract out management of parking lots instead of operating them themselves.
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Jimbobs wrote:
Mar 17th, 2017 12:41 pm
Ha ha. The TTC sits on land all over the City with huge potential. Not alone will they not develop it but they actively obstruct nearby developers improving the area. In at least one case, a developer wanted to build an underground connection to the nearby TTC station at his own expense. The TTC told him they wouldn't allow it even though he offered to assume all their costs. The connection would have benefitted the broader community as well as the residents of his building.

They also ignore other revenue possibilities. Their station parking lots are one example: they have parking lots which are full all day, empty all night but they won't allow people willing to pay for overnight parking use them. Also, they contract out management of parking lots instead of operating them themselves.
Yea, I heard about how notoriously difficult they are. Bay Station is apparently an example, Eglinton Stn too. Sheppard as well? Something about what's in the city by-laws going way back, has basically given them supreme power around them and what they can control. It's almost like this obsessive desire to keep things as is and never give an inch.

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