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Second Career Program - Feedback .

  • Last Updated:
  • Jul 28th, 2018 9:26 pm
Newbie
Dec 27, 2017
3 posts
Yes we have my husbands income, however he makes minimum wage, we also have an autistic child the amount that we get from child tax goes towards her medical needs as well as my prescriptions. It’s sad that the government has no problems heading out to the illegals walking into Quebec but when it comes to us they say forget it.

I tried for OSAP as was denied, we had to claim bankruptcy due to closing our business.

The reason why I had to fill out the forms so many times are because she had me fill out the wrong ones.my course changed dates and then filled them out wrongness again. My career councillor is in the wrong line of work. If I could find other funding, I would and not have to deal with her. I had no clue that she told me I could not even get a part time job.
EmpCouns wrote:
Dec 30th, 2017 11:45 pm
Basic living allowance under Second Career is absolutely inadequate, and we've all (counsellors as well as ETCs) been saying this for years. However, your counsellor should have gone through this with you before your application was submitted. I have no idea why you would have had to complete the forms multiple times, unless you changed your mind about your program or start date.

Anyway: you should talk to your counsellor about whether it's possible in your situation to make an application for financial hardship. I'm guessing that you do have some other household income (spouse/partner earnings, child tax benefit etc) because otherwise $61/week makes no sense at all - unless your tuition and other costs are so high that you have hit the $28,000 maximum and you've had to take a "voluntary" cut in BLA. See your counsellor. At the very least, you should be able to ask for help with transportation costs (they'll pay 15c per km for every km above 50 per day, though I have had that minimum amount waived in hardship applications). Be aware that if you do ask for financial hardship to be considered, you'll have to write a letter explaining why you can't cover these costs yourself, which will include explaining what other resources you've explored (eg loan, line of credit, OSAP, family support etc). But it's definitely possible to succeed.
Newbie
Aug 13, 2017
7 posts
Hi empcouns;

Thanks for your help which is greatly appreciate. I was accepted for SC funding but BLA is not enough to cover my expenses such as rent, car...etc. .
I would like to know if it is allowed to take both OSAP while under SC just to top up the SC BLA? i started Osap process but not finished it because of it impacts on my SC process.
Please, could i continue with OSAP cause I need extra money to cover my expenses.

Thanks,
EmpCouns wrote:
Dec 30th, 2017 11:48 pm
Congratulations! I'm very glad it all worked out for you. And don't discount a temporary position - if it's in a municipality, there is every chance that you will be able to apply for a permanent position with the municipality, or a longer-term contract which could also lead to a permanent position. Do a great job, make contacts, look at every internal posting that you're qualified for and apply.

I can't help on the income tax side, and I'm not sure that CRA would either. If you qualify for a free tax clinic, you could try one of those - otherwise, places like H&R Block don't cost all that much.
Sr. Member
Aug 2, 2012
640 posts
233 upvotes
It sounds as if you've had more challenges than should have been the case with this application.

So: yes, there are options. First, how much of your daughter's prescriptions will now be covered under OHIP+? Talk to your pharmacist and find out. Then make a list of the cost of your prescriptions as well as any of your daughter's medical needs that will not be met by the new expanded OHIP for kids. Then document your travelling expenses. Work out the weekly cost of all these expenses (travel is easy; you know the weekly cost. Medication will probably be every three months, so divide by 13 weeks. Show your calculations).

Second Career will insist that the financial hardship request be submitted through your counsellor - you can't send it yourself - but if you do the work well (a letter clearly explaining your financial situation, why you can't apply for OSAP, and what you are asking for, plus the list of costs you can't cover, and better still if your pharmacist will print out the medication costs) then all your counsellor will need to do is to send the request. The request itself is that you want your BLA increased by the amount of the weekly expenses you can justify but can't afford. I can definitely see a case for including transportation and medication. You can try to see if they'll help with anything else, but I think it's unlikely.

Good luck!
LauraL975526 wrote:
Dec 31st, 2017 11:32 am
Yes we have my husbands income, however he makes minimum wage, we also have an autistic child the amount that we get from child tax goes towards her medical needs as well as my prescriptions. It’s sad that the government has no problems heading out to the illegals walking into Quebec but when it comes to us they say forget it.

I tried for OSAP as was denied, we had to claim bankruptcy due to closing our business.

The reason why I had to fill out the forms so many times are because she had me fill out the wrong ones.my course changed dates and then filled them out wrongness again. My career councillor is in the wrong line of work. If I could find other funding, I would and not have to deal with her. I had no clue that she told me I could not even get a part time job.
Sr. Member
Aug 2, 2012
640 posts
233 upvotes
Yes, you can apply for OSAP, and depending on your situation you may qualify for a grant under OSAP.

Bring your Second Career contract to the financial aid officer at your college, and that person will help you to apply for OSAP. You may not get much, but anything can help.
jb2017 wrote:
Dec 31st, 2017 3:32 pm
Hi empcouns;

Thanks for your help which is greatly appreciate. I was accepted for SC funding but BLA is not enough to cover my expenses such as rent, car...etc. .
I would like to know if it is allowed to take both OSAP while under SC just to top up the SC BLA? i started Osap process but not finished it because of it impacts on my SC process.
Please, could i continue with OSAP cause I need extra money to cover my expenses.

Thanks,
Newbie
Aug 13, 2017
7 posts
@EmpCouns Thank you again.

In That case, Could i have to declare the OSAP grant to second career again as income or not? sometime at SC they ask for all income you receive or for any change while you are in SC.


EmpCouns wrote:
Dec 31st, 2017 5:00 pm
Yes, you can apply for OSAP, and depending on your situation you may qualify for a grant under OSAP.

Bring your Second Career contract to the financial aid officer at your college, and that person will help you to apply for OSAP. You may not get much, but anything can help.
Newbie
Jan 5, 2018
1 posts
HI @Empcouns:

I saw you answering questions and was not sure what it is you do but perhaps you may have some advice for me.

Who is the decision maker for which school the SC chooses you go to? My girlfriend's counsellor told her she had to apply to 5 schools although the government website only said 3. She wanted to go to NW Ontario for school (she is from there) and put 3 schools down frok thr area but the counsellor demanded she choose some southern Ontario schools too despite her not wanting to. She included 2 from there. She was accepted into all 5 schools she applied for.

She finally got told a week ago she was accepted into the SC program. Note this is 10 days before the semester begins. So my gf went in yesterday and was told she got into the Southern Ontario school in the city that the counsellor is from. Is there a way to complain or change this?
Sr. Member
Aug 2, 2012
640 posts
233 upvotes
If this happened as you describe, your friend should explain what happened to the Ministry. The choice of training institution is the student's - end of story. As long as the institution and program meets the criteria (institution must be registered with the Ministry of Advanced Education and Skills Development; program must be no longer than two years in length and must lead to a NOC C or B occupation), you get to attend the college you choose. (There is then the question of whether all costs are covered, but that is a different point).

The Ministry requires that three training institutions are researched. Can a counsellor require additional institutions? Not "require" - but we can certainly suggest, if we have concerns that the client is not doing due diligence. As for the locations of the institutions, that's also up to the client. I am in SW Ontario, and have had clients choose to study in central ON, and even the Capital region. Not a problem, as long as the client has a rationale for their choice of school and can demonstrate how they will afford their studies, including moving to the location of study or travelling back and forth.

Also: the application includes clear information about the choice of program, so the client applying must be the one specifying where s/he wants to study. Although research on three institutions is included, the letter of acceptance that goes with the application is from the client's choice of training institution, and all of the costs of training included on three separate forms (Application for Financial Assistance, Summary of Financial Assistance, Estimate of Financial Assistance) are based on the letter of acceptance for the client's program. There is also the Service Provider Summary form (where the counsellor makes the case for the client's acceptance), and this includes the name of the chosen training institution and the client's rationale for choosing that institution. That should absolutely be based on the client's choice and reasons for that choice.

Did your girlfriend get a copy of the application package? I provide all my clients with a full copy of their application as a matter of course. I also have the client sit with me as we complete the full application - all documents - together and talk the client through every single document, even documents they don't need to sign. To me, this should be standard practice for Second Career counsellors.

A couple of weeks ago, MAESD posted this memo on the EO Service Providers' gateway: http://www.tcu.gov.on.ca/eng/eopg/publi ... ion-en.pdf I was surprised when I read it as it never occurred to me that any service provider would violate the clear principle of neutrality when it comes to clients' choices (just as an aside, remaining neutral doesn't mean that I would not strongly recommend to clients that they research whether employers have a preference for specific training institutions, but regardless of whether I might have an opinion about a specific institution, I never attempt to influence the client's decision). Show this memo to your girlfriend and recommend that she talks to her Ministry ETC as soon as possible and before she starts her program.

I hope this helps. If your girlfriend has questions and would like to PM me, she is very welcome to do so.
ArielPink wrote:
Jan 6th, 2018 1:35 am
HI @Empcouns:

I saw you answering questions and was not sure what it is you do but perhaps you may have some advice for me.

Who is the decision maker for which school the SC chooses you go to? My girlfriend's counsellor told her she had to apply to 5 schools although the government website only said 3. She wanted to go to NW Ontario for school (she is from there) and put 3 schools down frok thr area but the counsellor demanded she choose some southern Ontario schools too despite her not wanting to. She included 2 from there. She was accepted into all 5 schools she applied for.

She finally got told a week ago she was accepted into the SC program. Note this is 10 days before the semester begins. So my gf went in yesterday and was told she got into the Southern Ontario school in the city that the counsellor is from. Is there a way to complain or change this?
Newbie
Jan 5, 2018
5 posts
Hello everyone,

First at all, I would like to say big thanks about this topic. Special gratitude for EmpCouns. I found many necessary information about SC program here. And if don't mind, may to help me with clarifying some of nuances.

So, I was laid off almost 2 years ago. My EI payment was ended 1 year ago. I was first time an appointment with counsellor at last Friday. We calculated all my point and I have only 15 points at this moment. After conversation with counsellor, I have feeling that she is not competent. Because she wasn't confidence in her answers and her answers for some questions was different from answers here. Please explain some moments.

1. How much points you get if you have Master Degree of non-Canadian university? And can the ministry check that you really have some degree if you didn't evaluated and approved it in Canada?
2. Can I choose college's program which close to my university's program?
3. Can I lost more points if college tell to take a course for increasing my grade?
4. Do the ministry calculate only Canadian work experience or all experience regardless of country?
5. Can I choose 3 year program? For example, first two years gonna be SC program and I will pay from own pocket for third year.
6. Can I re-apply with another program if my case will be not approval first time?

Sorry for many words. And I apologize, if some my questions may be repeated in this topic.
Sr. Member
Aug 2, 2012
640 posts
233 upvotes
Sunglo wrote:
Jan 6th, 2018 11:26 pm
Hello everyone,

First at all, I would like to say big thanks about this topic. Special gratitude for EmpCouns. I found many necessary information about SC program here. And if don't mind, may to help me with clarifying some of nuances.

So, I was laid off almost 2 years ago. My EI payment was ended 1 year ago. I was first time an appointment with counsellor at last Friday. We calculated all my point and I have only 15 points at this moment. After conversation with counsellor, I have feeling that she is not competent. Because she wasn't confidence in her answers and her answers for some questions was different from answers here. Please explain some moments.
You say 15 points at the moment. I assume that you have the maximum points for both duration of unemployment and length of job-search?
1. How much points you get if you have Master Degree of non-Canadian university? And can the ministry check that you really have some degree if you didn't evaluated and approved it in Canada?
1 point for completed post-secondary education. You can only score higher points if you can prove that your education is not recognised in Canada - eg a WES evaluation showing that your education is not equivalent (but if it is considered to be any level of post-secondary at all, you would still have minimal points. Eg equivalent to a bachelor's degree in Canada: 1 point. Equivalent to 2 or 3 years of a bachelor's degree: 2 points. The Ministry will not check up on your education, but the application form that you sign includes statements attesting that the information you have provided is truthful.
2. Can I choose college's program which close to my university's program?
As long as you show demand in the occupation and need for the training, yes.

3. Can I lost more points if college tell to take a course for increasing my grade?
I'm not sure that I understand what you mean. Is the college recommending academic upgrading or ESL? This is something to discuss with your counsellor, as you may be able to receive a living allowance for the period of your upgrading, if it is mandatory. Your points are what they are regardless of any need for upgrading.

4. Do the ministry calculate only Canadian work experience or all experience regardless of country?
Only work experience in Canada is considered for the purpose of calculating the length of your work history and for your occupational background.
5. Can I choose 3 year program? For example, first two years gonna be SC program and I will pay from own pocket for third year.
No.
6. Can I re-apply with another program if my case will be not approval first time?
Approval is based on your eligibility/suitability and the case made for the need for training. The only relevance of the program in your application is that it must meet SC rules. Your counsellor should not support any application that requests a program which doesn't meet the rules. If the program itself is the stumbling-block (ie not considered eligible for funding), then you could reapply with a different program.

Hope this helps.
Newbie
Jan 5, 2018
5 posts
EmpCouns,

Thank you so much for your soonest reply and detailed explanation.
This situation becomes clear for me now.
In question #3 I mean points of Suitability Assessment Template. Sorry for confusion.
My counsellor told if I will take academic upgrading or ESL for my college's program, she give 2 points in section "Skill Training". Because I will get a certificate after those courses.

May you please check if I am right understand this calculation?

Active Job Research - 3 points
Duration of Unemployed - 3 points
Education Background - 1 point
Work History (I have only 2.5 years) - 1 point
Labour Market Prospects (license not required. it's in IT systems) - 2 points
Type of Skill Training - 3 points
Experience and Occupational Skills(NOC skill type C) - 2 points

And only one chance to get extra 1 point, it's choose licensed occupation and also will try pass to college's program without any additional upgrading or ESL courses. Is it right?

And one more question.  I considered my work experience based on the information of MSCA.
I noticed that the information is not full. I remember that I worked in one company a few years ago and got T4 from them. If I add this company, I will be have 3 years experience in total. But this company doesn't show in MSCA. That's why, I wonder to know, how the ministry checking work experience? Are they have access to CRA and MSCA? I don't know, should I add it to total experience? If yes, will it be 2 points of Work History?
Sr. Member
Aug 2, 2012
640 posts
233 upvotes
What is MCSA?

MAESD uses the information you provide. If you state that you have three years' work experience in the same occupation, and this is supported by the information shown on your resume, then you should have two points for work history. Remember that, as I said in my previous post, you would be signing a form stating that the information you have provided is accurate.

By the way, has your counsellor told you about exceptions? It is possible to submit an application with fewer than 16 points (and no possibility of getting to 16 points) if the counsellor believes there is a good reason why the person should be approved. With someone whose education is from outside Canada, it's often the case that employers in Canada won't accept that education, and this has been accepted by MAESD as a rationale for granting an exception request in many cases.
Sunglo wrote:
Jan 8th, 2018 1:25 am
EmpCouns,

Thank you so much for your soonest reply and detailed explanation.
This situation becomes clear for me now.
In question #3 I mean points of Suitability Assessment Template. Sorry for confusion.
My counsellor told if I will take academic upgrading or ESL for my college's program, she give 2 points in section "Skill Training". Because I will get a certificate after those courses.

May you please check if I am right understand this calculation?

Active Job Research - 3 points
Duration of Unemployed - 3 points
Education Background - 1 point
Work History (I have only 2.5 years) - 1 point
Labour Market Prospects (license not required. it's in IT systems) - 2 points
Type of Skill Training - 3 points
Experience and Occupational Skills(NOC skill type C) - 2 points

And only one chance to get extra 1 point, it's choose licensed occupation and also will try pass to college's program without any additional upgrading or ESL courses. Is it right?

And one more question.  I considered my work experience based on the information of MSCA.
I noticed that the information is not full. I remember that I worked in one company a few years ago and got T4 from them. If I add this company, I will be have 3 years experience in total. But this company doesn't show in MSCA. That's why, I wonder to know, how the ministry checking work experience? Are they have access to CRA and MSCA? I don't know, should I add it to total experience? If yes, will it be 2 points of Work History?
Newbie
Jan 5, 2018
5 posts
EmpCouns,

I very appreciate for your help. And please, don't think that I want something hide. I just don't want to have problems with MAESD. Because I thinking that the Ministry will be check everything carefully in a case with low points.
EmpCouns wrote:
Jan 8th, 2018 9:57 pm
What is MCSA?
I mean My Service Canada Account.

Today I had appointment with my counsellor. I asked to re-check my assessment again and we found out that my last occupation is "D" skill level and I eligible for SC program.

I started asked a questions about my next steps. She told the same as at first appointment that she is busy. And if I have questions, sent email to her. But I didn't got a reply even on my first email with question. And you helped me, for what big thanks. But why she arrange an appointment if she know that she doesn't has enough time for that. Also, I attended to Second Career orientation in those center and speaker gave some forms and told for more information ask counsellor.

I am understand that to be a counsellor is not easy job. You can not spend to much time for each client how he want. And the client should doing almost all the work for this program. May be I am wrong, but at least the counsellor should know answers for general questions.
And right now I am again don't know what to do next. I doing research about how right prepare paperwork of college's program, labour market and etc.

For example, I already chose college's program. And this program can be like "A" skill type and "B" skill type at the same. I tried explain this to counsellor. She told me prepare all documents. After that she will give me an answer. So, I try to contact with college right now and get more information. The same problem I have problem with those three interviews of labour research. She said that it can be a person who has this occupation. But after she said that it should be exactly a company. I can't imagine how I call to Microsoft and ask what they think about the occupation of database administrators. Smiling Face With Open Mouth And Smiling Eyes

Any way, thank you so much that you helping people like me with providing the information and nuances about this program.
Sr. Member
Aug 2, 2012
640 posts
233 upvotes
I'm not sure anyone uses MSCA to refer to their Service Canada account! Anyway, thanks for clarifying.

So: congratulations on getting to 16 points. As I said in my previous post, MAESD uses the information you provide in your application, including your resume, to verify the points you are awarded.

I can't comment on your counsellor's schedule, but I would think that you're entitled to have your questions answered, whether in person or by email. If you're not getting answers, ask whether someone else at the agency would have more time to talk with you.

You mention database administration - this is a NOC A occupation and cannot be your occupational goal. Make sure that your stated occupational goal is NOC B otherwise you would not be approved.

As for the information interviews, they can either be with people working in the occupation, or people hiring for the occupation. If you are having trouble getting people to speak to, there are strategies you could use:
* ask around friends and family to find contacts
* look for people on LinkedIn working in the field you're interested in
* see if any of the training institutions you're researching can help with connections
* see if job developers at your counsellor's agency can help you with contacts

So there are the information interviews; you also need to research similar programs at three colleges (and get a letter of acceptance for your preferred program), and provide relevant financial information. I can't advise you on these steps as different agencies have different practices in terms of what they want clients to do on their own and what they will do with the client. I would just reiterate: if you need help, ask for it, and if your counsellor is "too busy", then ask her to connect you with someone who does have time to answer your questions. Alternatively, you can go to another agency and complete your application there instead.

Good luck!
Sunglo wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 4:08 pm
EmpCouns,

I very appreciate for your help. And please, don't think that I want something hide. I just don't want to have problems with MAESD. Because I thinking that the Ministry will be check everything carefully in a case with low points.


I mean My Service Canada Account.

Today I had appointment with my counsellor. I asked to re-check my assessment again and we found out that my last occupation is "D" skill level and I eligible for SC program.

I started asked a questions about my next steps. She told the same as at first appointment that she is busy. And if I have questions, sent email to her. But I didn't got a reply even on my first email with question. And you helped me, for what big thanks. But why she arrange an appointment if she know that she doesn't has enough time for that. Also, I attended to Second Career orientation in those center and speaker gave some forms and told for more information ask counsellor.

I am understand that to be a counsellor is not easy job. You can not spend to much time for each client how he want. And the client should doing almost all the work for this program. May be I am wrong, but at least the counsellor should know answers for general questions.
And right now I am again don't know what to do next. I doing research about how right prepare paperwork of college's program, labour market and etc.

For example, I already chose college's program. And this program can be like "A" skill type and "B" skill type at the same. I tried explain this to counsellor. She told me prepare all documents. After that she will give me an answer. So, I try to contact with college right now and get more information. The same problem I have problem with those three interviews of labour research. She said that it can be a person who has this occupation. But after she said that it should be exactly a company. I can't imagine how I call to Microsoft and ask what they think about the occupation of database administrators. Smiling Face With Open Mouth And Smiling Eyes

Any way, thank you so much that you helping people like me with providing the information and nuances about this program.
Newbie
Jan 9, 2018
3 posts
Hello EmpCouns I have a question or two as well I hope you can assist me with :)
I have sent in the entire SC package on Dec 20 and my class is to start January 22. Being we had the holiday season, what do you think my chances are of being able to start this class? Also, will I hear from SC or will all go through my EC? Thank you so much in advance for your thoughts :) Hope your day is awesome.
Newbie
Jan 5, 2018
5 posts
EmpCouns,

Thank you for your advices.

Will be doing preparation for applying at Second Career program.
I booked appointments in two colleges for tomorrow. Will see what they tell me.

By the way, how much I can make money with new minimum wage? I thinking about a delivery on Uber. And don't know, will be Ministry calculate income by hours or by cheque?

Sorry for bothering in last few days.

Have a good daySmiling Face With Open Mouth

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