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Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 1st, 2013 9:09 pm
by EmpCouns
Answers to your questions as follows:

1: Yes, you can research colleges outside your home town - in fact, that's the requirement if there aren't three in your local area offering the program you want to take. Are there no private career colleges offering law clerk?

2: MTCU rules state that you must research one publicly-funded and one private college, and the third may be whichever you choose.

3: You only need an acceptance letter for the program of your choice - however, the private colleges will give you an acceptance letter anyway, because that's their process.

4: What you need to submit to MTCU and what your counsellor needs to keep on file are two different things. Your Second Career application will contain the offer letter from your college of choice, and will have just summary information on the other researched programs. However, you must provide your complete school research to your counsellor. Each region varies as to what they require, but in general the schools and colleges are very used to the Second Career process and they'll give you an information package containing all the details about the program, including teaching methods, employment outcomes, breakdown of tuition and other costs and so on.

Hope this helps.

Looking4information wrote: Hi EmpCouns, I see that you help people a lot, by giving advice and you are so knowledgeable, I need some help please! I have some questions:
*im looking into second career law clerk however where I live there is only one school that offers that career in January, can I submit my other 2 colleges from another city whit in Ontario?

* Can it be all public schools?

*do I need 3 acceptance letters from the 3 schools or only one letter of acceptance from the school that I choose?

*Do I need the presentation folders with all the information from 3 schools or only from the one I choose and the other two can it just be written down on the forms? Meaning that I just get the details from the schools as to cost, tuition, etc and of course the one I choose I get all the info in letterhead and he acceptance letter?

I hope you can help me as I am working on my application and I might have more questions for you later :)
Thank you

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 1st, 2013 9:28 pm
by monna
Thanks EmpCouns for your helpful info. So I went, pretty much as you said. I asked to talk to someone who’s knowledgeable in SC. she gave some different package to fill I also was told that they don't use the forms from the tcu.gov.on.ca as they have their own. Also I was asked to register in service Canada website and print out (my current claim or view my past claims) when I told her I had no EI claim she was confused and said just print what's there. Also was asked to search one private college that offers same course (which I couldn’t find "construction management- 1 year- GB") and one public college which "the one I got" it beside optional another public one. the rest are as you mentioned some past job searches, financial situation..etc. I don’t have that much hope but will do my best anyways.


EmpCouns wrote: Good luck with your counsellor tomorrow!
It's great that you have an acceptance letter - that will save some time. You will still have to research similar programs at two other schools - that's a mandatory part of the application. As for timing, if someone came to see me tomorrow to begin the process I'd tell them there isn't much time but that if they work quickly to complete all the research, and then we can fit in the meetings to finalise all the application paperwork, it's doable. One tip for now: if your program requires anything like a criminal record check or immunisations, get those done now. Although your school may not need you to have these before starting, MTCU does - they want to ensure that you won't be prevented from having an internship, or finding a job in your field, because you have a criminal record or infectious disease (for example) that wasn't disclosed.

Given that you don't have much time, if you feel that you don't trust your existing counsellor to do the job right you might want to ask to speak to the manager and see if you can work with a different counsellor who is more experienced with Second Career. If you go somewhere else, you will have to go through intake, then wait for an appointment, and that could take a couple of weeks.

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 1st, 2013 9:39 pm
by Looking4information
Thank you!
Sorry I still more or the same questions just want to ensure I understand as this is the first time I go through this.
1.- none of private colleges offer law clerk stating in January only paralegal I know paralegal is more complete but I must start in January as my ei is ending in dec, and I have not found any employment and I'm single mom. Therefore none private colleges offered but only one law clerk starting in January and is a public school. Having said this I'm missing two schools I was thinking to choose two schools in Ontario but different city where I live can I do that? Can it be all public or it has to be two public and one private or two private and one public.

2.-Once I choose the school that I want to go to I need all their paperwork acceptance letter etc. correct?

3.- for the other two schools; if I'm choosing two schools In a Different city can I get the print outs from the internet or call the school and have them to explain everything to me or maybe sent by email, mail or fax, then I copy all the information tuition, books, hrs, etc on my training research forms. Do the training and/ or employment centre needs to have all information package (originals) from the other two schools?

Thank you , and sorry to ask the same or similar questions like I said I'm new on this, and you are so knowledgeable.

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 1st, 2013 9:54 pm
by Looking4information
Sorry empcouns I forgot to mention that paralegal is offer only in September, and law clerk is offer in January, therefore I have not choice but to do law clerk in January because my ei ends in dec , so once again I only found one public that offers law clerk in January the rest is in September and the privates don't offer law clerk only paralegal but I don't want go to a private college I prefer public , please see my previous message this is continuation.....

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 1st, 2013 11:09 pm
by yoshim
Would I be able to qualify if I am on ODSP? Would it help or hinder my application?

What if I qualify, then become approved for ODSP afterwards? Would I be kicked out?

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 2nd, 2013 5:28 pm
by EmpCouns
The programs don't all have to have the same start date. The only restriction is that the start dates must not be in the past. So if a private career college has a start date in March 2014, say, that's fine to use as a comparison.

If you can't find two private colleges in your area offering a law clerk program, then you can get information from a college (public or private) outside your area. You don't need to visit those schools in person. Call or email and ask to speak to an admissions officer who deals with Second Career. Explain that you're from outside the area but need to research a program for your SC application, and ask if they can send you the program information sheet with start dates and prices. All you actually need for the application form are:
* program name
* school name and location
* tuition cost
* start and end date
* total number of teaching hours, if it's a private college


For the program you intend to take, yes, you need the acceptance letter, and this must show all costs and relevant dates. If there are placements or co-ops, the duration of these also need to be specified, and it must be made clear whether these are supervised by the college. Your counsellor should know all of this - and the colleges do, as well. They have standard letters which provide the information MTCU wants.

Looking4information wrote: Thank you!
Sorry I still more or the same questions just want to ensure I understand as this is the first time I go through this.
1.- none of private colleges offer law clerk stating in January only paralegal I know paralegal is more complete but I must start in January as my ei is ending in dec, and I have not found any employment and I'm single mom. Therefore none private colleges offered but only one law clerk starting in January and is a public school. Having said this I'm missing two schools I was thinking to choose two schools in Ontario but different city where I live can I do that? Can it be all public or it has to be two public and one private or two private and one public.

2.-Once I choose the school that I want to go to I need all their paperwork acceptance letter etc. correct?

3.- for the other two schools; if I'm choosing two schools In a Different city can I get the print outs from the internet or call the school and have them to explain everything to me or maybe sent by email, mail or fax, then I copy all the information tuition, books, hrs, etc on my training research forms. Do the training and/ or employment centre needs to have all information package (originals) from the other two schools?

Thank you , and sorry to ask the same or similar questions like I said I'm new on this, and you are so knowledgeable.

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 2nd, 2013 5:38 pm
by EmpCouns
Being an ODSP recipient does not exclude you from Second Career. MTCU's concern would be whether you are actually able to study and work, so it's possible that they may ask for a doctor's note certifying that you are fit to work in the career of your choice. If you have to pay for that doctor's note, ask your ODSP caseworker if the cost can be refunded. If ODSP won't pay, ask your employment counsellor if you can use Employment Ontario financial supports to pay for it.

The key thing is whether you will be able to be successful in your program, and from there be physically capable of working in your chosen field (or, if it's a mental/learning/developmental disability, that the specific condition doesn't prevent you from working in that field). To be completely ridiculous about it, if a severely visually-impaired person came to me and said s/he wanted to train as a truck-driver, I would have concerns and would not recommend that person for funding for that program - which is not to say that I wouldn't recommend her/him for a different program in a field where the visual impairment made little or no difference to her/his ability to perform the work. I would also encourage that person to explore disability supports available to students - and here is where community colleges are generally much better, as they have disability services counsellors and access to special equipment and other supports to ensure equal access as far as possible for students with disabilities.

If you're already on ODSP and are approved for Second Career, you'll need to talk to your ODSP caseworker about how financial support will work. Both ODSP and Second Career will deduct any income from other sources from your entitlement - so if you receive OSDP, your Basic Living Allowance would be reduced by that amount. You'd need to find out from your caseworker whether you're allowed to keep receiving ODSP while in Second Career (I did find out in one case that a client of mine could have kept receiving ODSP) and talk with your counsellor about the financial calculations.

If you don't already have an employment counsellor with whom to discuss all these questions, now's the time to find one.
yoshim wrote: Would I be able to qualify if I am on ODSP? Would it help or hinder my application?

What if I qualify, then become approved for ODSP afterwards? Would I be kicked out?

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 2nd, 2013 7:45 pm
by yoshim
Cool. Thanks for the info!

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 3rd, 2013 10:19 pm
by monna
Plesse EmpCouns, Does the tuition cost matter when performing institutions research? I mean if your choice was the highest tuition cost, is it considered as disadvantage?

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 4th, 2013 10:25 pm
by EmpCouns
It depends. One of the areas where you are awarded suitability points is for type of training, and one of the factors taken into account is 'best value training option'. Higher tuition can be offset by other things, though: for example, while private career colleges have higher tuition fees, the program length is usually shorter, so the overall training cost could be about the same or even lower than at a community college (basic living allowance and dependant care for a shorter period of time).

The other thing to remember is that MTCU will only pay a maximum of $10,000 for tuition (with limits also for the hourly rate), so even if a private career college's program costs $20,000, say, MTCU would only be contributing $10,000.

This is something to discuss with your counsellor. If you're clear about the reasons why you are choosing the most expensive program (eg closer start date, shorter program, rated more highly by employers etc), that will help your counsellor to present your case for funding.

monna wrote: Plesse EmpCouns, Does the tuition cost matter when performing institutions research? I mean if your choice was the highest tuition cost, is it considered as disadvantage?

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 4th, 2013 11:15 pm
by Looking4information
Thank you again, another question:
As for the living allowance I'm a single mom and my child has been diagnosed with some disability, do I qualify for extra disability amount for living allowance?
What are my changes to get the maximum amount which is $410 I believe?
Also I'm getting 325 for CCTB in that amount includes 200 for disability so technically I'm getting 125 for CCTB, is 325 will be deducted from the living allowance?

Thank you

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 5th, 2013 12:02 am
by EmpCouns
You will have to go through all of that with your counsellor. Basic living allowance is calculated based on your actual expenses (subject to MTCU maximums) with any income deducted. The situation with your child's disability does complicate your income position, so you'll need to discuss that with your counsellor and see how it can be treated - if your counsellor isn't sure, s/he can ask MTCU for clarification.

Looking4information wrote: Thank you again, another question:
As for the living allowance I'm a single mom and my child has been diagnosed with some disability, do I qualify for extra disability amount for living allowance?
What are my changes to get the maximum amount which is $410 I believe?
Also I'm getting 325 for CCTB in that amount includes 200 for disability so technically I'm getting 125 for CCTB, is 325 will be deducted from the living allowance?

Thank you

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 5th, 2013 3:49 pm
by Looking4information
Thank you

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 5th, 2013 8:06 pm
by yoshim
I have a friend who was denied the Second Career Program. He only had a 2 year diploma at the time in an unrelated field and worked for a few years before deciding to switch to another program.
How could this be? He was living with his parents and definitely wasn't making much money. Why would he have been rejected?

He is now completing his second program at a local college and would like to attend university in January. Could he try applying again and would he qualify given he is graduating college in a related field?

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 5th, 2013 8:21 pm
by EmpCouns
I obviously can't comment on why he was denied, given that I don't know the reason for the denial. He might not have had enough points, or not been able to demonstrate adequate job-search history, or other reasons like that.

He would not be eligible to apply now, however; you can't apply for Second Career if you have completed post-secondary education within the last two years. Also, most university programs are not eligible for Second Career (programs must be no more than two years in length, either NOC B or C, and lead to a specific occupation - so, for example, degrees in mathematics, history, psychology etc wouldn't be vocational enough anyway).

yoshim wrote: I have a friend who was denied the Second Career Program. He only had a 2 year diploma at the time in an unrelated field and worked for a few years before deciding to switch to another program.
How could this be? He was living with his parents and definitely wasn't making much money. Why would he have been rejected?

He is now completing his second program at a local college and would like to attend university in January. Could he try applying again and would he qualify given he is graduating college in a related field?

2nd career question approval

Posted: Nov 6th, 2013 12:32 pm
by Looking4information
Hi EmpCouns, I was reading the previous answer on second career denied, in my case the ministry paid for second career in accounting in 2004 after my pregnancy I founds a job and stayed there for 9 years and had been laid off now I qualify with the points I have between 17/18 points but I want to go into law clerk can the ministry not approve my second career for law clerk because they already pay for accounting in 2004? Please note that I have the points ....
Thank you

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 6th, 2013 8:14 pm
by EmpCouns
It is possible to receive Second Career funding for a second time (though in your case you would have been funded through Skills Development - but still, you're looking for skills training funding for a second time). However, you would need to show why you need retraining: that you have tried to find work in your field and have been unsuccessful. From what I understand, applications for a second round of funding can be scrutinised more carefully, but the mere fact that you were funded previously doesn't rule out a second approval for training - unless the training was completed within the last two years. Since yours is from 2004, that's not an issue.

Looking4information wrote: Hi EmpCouns, I was reading the previous answer on second career denied, in my case the ministry paid for second career in accounting in 2004 after my pregnancy I founds a job and stayed there for 9 years and had been laid off now I qualify with the points I have between 17/18 points but I want to go into law clerk can the ministry not approve my second career for law clerk because they already pay for accounting in 2004? Please note that I have the points ....
Thank you

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 8th, 2013 1:03 am
by yoshim
Would Teacher's College at a university qualify? I think it is a two year program if you already have an undergrad degree.

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 8th, 2013 5:19 pm
by EmpCouns
No, for two reasons: first, it's a NOC A role; second, I defy anyone to find quality labour market information in Ontario showing jobs for teachers!
yoshim wrote: Would Teacher's College at a university qualify? I think it is a two year program if you already have an undergrad degree.

Re: Second Career Program - Feedback .

Posted: Nov 8th, 2013 11:34 pm
by yoshim
Is it because the job market for teachers in Ontario is very bad right now? Any ideas when it would pick up?