Home & Garden

Selling with Property Guys- legal problems??

Newbie
Aug 22, 2016
2 posts
When, oh when, is the public going to rebel about this system that is full of parasites, and force the multiple listing people to accept any and all listings for a reasonable fee?

To comment on an earlier post, I stopped using those ignorant and sometimes corrupt inspectors and got a reliable contractor to do my inspections (for a $50 fee) until I got so experienced in renovations that I was able to do my own, for zero cost.
Deal Addict
Nov 2, 2005
2832 posts
527 upvotes
Ottawa
GinaB731 wrote:
Sep 10th, 2016 7:25 am
When, oh when, is the public going to rebel about this system that is full of parasites, and force the multiple listing people to accept any and all listings for a reasonable fee?

To comment on an earlier post, I stopped using those ignorant and sometimes corrupt inspectors and got a reliable contractor to do my inspections (for a $50 fee) until I got so experienced in renovations that I was able to do my own, for zero cost.
There are obviously huge provincial differences but here in ON more and more sellers are listing FSBO, more and more buyers are prepared to consider FSBO listings, more and more selling agents are prepared to discount their fee, more and more sellers are accessing MLS for a nominal fixed fee. As their customers are become more savvy agents are having to do less and less for their commission and their fees need to change to reflect this. There's still a long way to go but things are slowly changing for the better.

Hopefully upcoming legislation will hold inspectors accountable for their reports but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
Newbie
Oct 1, 2016
3 posts
You are a homeowner in The GTA looking to sell. Your property is valued around $500,000 and the market is a "sellers market", which you can tell because your neighbourhood is selling within a couple days with realtors lined up on offer night hoping they get the deal. You have two options, which do you choose?

1) you hire PropertyGuys or another FSBO company. Pay them a couple hundred bucks to get on the Ottawa Real Estate Board and Realtor.ca you get basic templates to create some standard marketing and some tips to host your own open houses and follow up with interest. You get a few offers, and sell for $505,000 after a week on the market. You've spent a total of $5000 (netting you $500,000) and 40 hours working on selling your house.

2) you hire a realtor and agree to pay them 5% (which they split with another realtor bringing the buyer). That realtor helps prepare your home increasing curb appeal. They market your property to all local realtors who have buyers for your property in proven ways to reach them. They reach out-of-town buyers and even foreign investors. They spend hundreds, maybe a couple thousand marketing your property. They follow up with people (as much as buyers will let them), hold "agent caravan" open houses which validate your price and marketing with local expertise. When offers come, they have negotiation skills and likely know the other realtor and their own tactics with their buyer. They know the red-flag (pun intended) questions to ask. You've agreed to pay them 5%, but you get a dozen offers due to their expert marketing and ability to reach YOUR specific buyers for YOUR specific house, and sell for $538,000 and get the closing date you want. There's nothing left to do but sit back and wait for closing, because the realtors have done everything for you. You've netted $511,100 and didn't have to do much running around or invest much time.

Please stop discounting the value of a realtor. There are indeed terrible ones out there - the attrition rate is about 75% within 2 years. But if you spent some time really interviewing a bunch, they not only save you time and have extensive experience and knowledge to share in representing you, but they CAN actually save and/or make you more than if you tried to do it yourself.
Member
Apr 30, 2013
295 posts
34 upvotes
Toronto
More like....

1, Schedule a date offers can be presented 2 weeks from the day it is released on MLS. Do my due diligence to market, advertise and showcase my home and finally welcome the highest bidder at $550,000 or more.

The end.
Deal Addict
Jan 13, 2007
1287 posts
199 upvotes
lol this thread has a number of vested interest posters with less than 10 posts challenging the FSBO/PG and trying to really just insult common sense - especially the one clown from two years ago who doesn't know was a paragraph means.
Deal Addict
Jan 13, 2007
1287 posts
199 upvotes
Sanderella97 wrote:
Oct 2nd, 2016 6:17 pm
You are a homeowner in The GTA looking to sell. Your property is valued around $500,000 and the market is a "sellers market", which you can tell because your neighbourhood is selling within a couple days with realtors lined up on offer night hoping they get the deal. You have two options, which do you choose?

1) you hire PropertyGuys or another FSBO company. Pay them a couple hundred bucks to get on the Ottawa Real Estate Board and Realtor.ca you get basic templates to create some standard marketing and some tips to host your own open houses and follow up with interest. You get a few offers, and sell for $505,000 after a week on the market. You've spent a total of $5000 (netting you $500,000) and 40 hours working on selling your house.

2) you hire a realtor and agree to pay them 5% (which they split with another realtor bringing the buyer). That realtor helps prepare your home increasing curb appeal. They market your property to all local realtors who have buyers for your property in proven ways to reach them. They reach out-of-town buyers and even foreign investors. They spend hundreds, maybe a couple thousand marketing your property. They follow up with people (as much as buyers will let them), hold "agent caravan" open houses which validate your price and marketing with local expertise. When offers come, they have negotiation skills and likely know the other realtor and their own tactics with their buyer. They know the red-flag (pun intended) questions to ask. You've agreed to pay them 5%, but you get a dozen offers due to their expert marketing and ability to reach YOUR specific buyers for YOUR specific house, and sell for $538,000 and get the closing date you want. There's nothing left to do but sit back and wait for closing, because the realtors have done everything for you. You've netted $511,100 and didn't have to do much running around or invest much time.

Please stop discounting the value of a realtor. There are indeed terrible ones out there - the attrition rate is about 75% within 2 years. But if you spent some time really interviewing a bunch, they not only save you time and have extensive experience and knowledge to share in representing you, but they CAN actually save and/or make you more than if you tried to do it yourself.
yeah. you're simple. and you're the reason why realtor confidence in general is starting to dwindle. Your post has no conclusive hypothesis to support scenario (1) vs scenario (2).

Don't continue to assume that sellers are stupid - a basic presumption that has long lasted in your field of work.
Newbie
Oct 1, 2016
3 posts
utopianbl wrote:
Oct 3rd, 2016 2:59 pm
yeah. you're simple. and you're the reason why realtor confidence in general is starting to dwindle. Your post has no conclusive hypothesis to support scenario (1) vs scenario (2).

Don't continue to assume that sellers are stupid - a basic presumption that has long lasted in your field of work.
That was unnecessarily insulting. This is a forum on RFD, it's not a place to post conclusive evidence to support what I'm saying. But it happens. I see it happen all the time, and I can give you specific examples in my own marketplace where it occurs, as well as providing all information available for you to draw your own conclusions, if you'd like to get together and hash it out more. Or maybe you'd just like to base judgment on assumption in which case I'm wasting my breath. But, I'm not in the habit of fudging stats, and I definitely resent that implication, and the accusation that I'm "simple".

I certainly do not assume sellers are stupid. I completely reject that assumption. I work FOR them, not in spite of them, and I truly love what I do. But I certainly am confident that I have the experience, the access and the successful track record to analyze their market, their individual property and it's place within that market, and have the expertise and dedication at my disposal to successfully market for and negotiate a top-dollar price, which the average seller (intelligent or.... "stupid", to use your words) does not have. My track record backs up what I'm saying - Sellers net a higher price when they list with a GOOD realtor, and save/make more money than the fee they pay. Truly and completely. Unless you've worked it and truly understand both sides of that coin, I don't think you're well enough equipped to be casting insults the way you are.
Deal Addict
Dec 18, 2006
1855 posts
304 upvotes
Holy crap - in 9 days this thread will hit a 6 year anniversary!! Yet still folks on both sides of the fence.. come on, happy medium folks! FSBO is not for everyone, however those who have the time & patience to do so, and have kept up with RE trends in their areas, there's no reason for them to lose out as long as they're providing competitive CB based on their areas (as typically buyer's still tend to work with agents).

Just recently purchased an FSBO for one of my clients in Whitby - seller was well versed to make it a multiple offer and ended up with 5 offers. Granted she was on the phone with a couple folks during the entire time to help guide her, she still got it done and ended up with a price that satisfied her.

Again, it's not for everyone - some folks would rather have the agent list the property for them, while they would literally just put in the effort to keep their home presentable and leave for showings and then finally be present for offers and negotiations. They'd rather leave all the grunt work to the agent and brokerage in terms of arranging for showings, lockbox, marketing, etc.

Nothing wrong with either method.
Jay R
CENTURY 21 Titans Realty Inc. Brokerage
RE4L - Real Estate 4 Less
Deal Addict
Aug 29, 2011
2433 posts
545 upvotes
Mississauga
Like any profession there are good and bad people. But it just seems like the real estate industry attracts more than its fair share of bad actors. Especially in a seller's market where an agent can get away with doing the minimum and still collect the big commission.

In my circle of friends who've sold their homes over the past several years, it's basically been a 50/50 split between great and terrible agents. As an industry that's not a track record to be proud of...
Deal Addict
Jan 13, 2007
1287 posts
199 upvotes
Sanderella97 wrote:
Oct 3rd, 2016 10:58 pm
utopianbl wrote:
Oct 3rd, 2016 2:59 pm
yeah. you're simple. and you're the reason why realtor confidence in general is starting to dwindle. Your post has no conclusive hypothesis to support scenario (1) vs scenario (2).

Don't continue to assume that sellers are stupid - a basic presumption that has long lasted in your field of work.
That was unnecessarily insulting. This is a forum on RFD, it's not a place to post conclusive evidence to support what I'm saying. But it happens. I see it happen all the time, and I can give you specific examples in my own marketplace where it occurs, as well as providing all information available for you to draw your own conclusions, if you'd like to get together and hash it out more. Or maybe you'd just like to base judgment on assumption in which case I'm wasting my breath. But, I'm not in the habit of fudging stats, and I definitely resent that implication, and the accusation that I'm "simple".

I certainly do not assume sellers are stupid. I completely reject that assumption. I work FOR them, not in spite of them, and I truly love what I do. But I certainly am confident that I have the experience, the access and the successful track record to analyze their market, their individual property and it's place within that market, and have the expertise and dedication at my disposal to successfully market for and negotiate a top-dollar price, which the average seller (intelligent or.... "stupid", to use your words) does not have. My track record backs up what I'm saying - Sellers net a higher price when they list with a GOOD realtor, and save/make more money than the fee they pay. Truly and completely. Unless you've worked it and truly understand both sides of that coin, I don't think you're well enough equipped to be casting insults the way you are.
really, did I hurt your feelings? but I'm sorry - like your earlier post - your post sounds like one big sound byte with catchy marketing buzzwords that I've heard from a million (yes, exaggeration) other realtors. Many of them, your colleagues, who walk up to my door every weekend over the summer and try to sell me their good(!) services.

oh yeah, simple, used in my earlier context was to describe your post - because based on that turgid nonsensical example (that you have since confirmed is without base and factless, because you can't be bothered to check your facts or quote real numbers) where a realtor based seller and a FSBO aided seller are apart by $11.1k because that was the value add by the realtor. You made one of the two assumptions below. You either assumed:

1) the seller is stupid enough to go into a sale without any proper research on his home, and has decided to sell the house at $505k when the going price is much higher
or
2) the buying agents are unethical enough to not show the sellers house to their clients, because its an FSBO or agent is not making enough commission. Hence the seller is not getting enough traffic.

Either ways - those presumptions are precisely why I termed your post - simple. And that example is precisely the example you'd throw at an uninitiated client

and tell me - oh accomplished one - in your experience is selling a house worth a million dollars compared to one that is $500k, thereby having the million-dollar seller pay up-to $25k in additional realtor commissions
Newbie
Oct 1, 2016
3 posts
@utopianbl, you're incredibly rude, unnecessarily offensive, and seem to be seeking to attack instead of engage in mature debate and discussion in an effort to share and spread your point of view, regardless of whether you're correct or not in the grand scheme. I won't engage further - I have homes to market and transactions to negotiate. I hope your day gets better and you, somehow, find yourself less angry, sarcastic and hostile to the next stranger you meet that views an issue differently than you do. Sometimes, listening and considering can take you very far without jabbing in response. It's clear you've been burned by a terrible realtor or two, and I'm sorry for that. I wish you hadn't put on blinders so long that you can't see the forest for the trees.
Deal Addict
Jan 13, 2007
1287 posts
199 upvotes
Sanderella97 wrote:
Oct 4th, 2016 10:32 am
@utopianbl, you're incredibly rude, unnecessarily offensive, and seem to be seeking to attack instead of engage in mature debate and discussion in an effort to share and spread your point of view, regardless of whether you're correct or not in the grand scheme. I won't engage further - I have homes to market and transactions to negotiate. I hope your day gets better and you, somehow, find yourself less angry, sarcastic and hostile to the next stranger you meet that views an issue differently than you do. Sometimes, listening and considering can take you very far without jabbing in response. It's clear you've been burned by a terrible realtor or two, and I'm sorry for that. I wish you hadn't put on blinders so long that you can't see the forest for the trees.
thank you for caring for my well being, worry not I am far from angry. But it does seem you're still on the kool-aid, hence not really seeing the forest from the trees. For goodness sakes, if you have marketing and transactions to negotiate - hurry on by and help your clients!

But do recognize - you evaded the questions I did pose you in both my responses. Therein lies the ugly truth

bye
Newbie
Nov 19, 2016
3 posts
1 upvote
Hey all,

My first post here. Some background info about me. I work full time for an investment firm and am thinking of getting my real estate license as I have many friends who are very successful and love it. So I've been reading all of these posts and I think it really comes down to one thing...TIME. If you have lots of it then by all means sell or buy property yourself or by using sites like Property Guys, but if you don't have a lot of it then a real estate agent is the way to go to maximize your profit and get a quick sale or purchase.

The average time it takes to sell a house in Toronto is 30-60 days with a broker. Do you really want to spend any longer than that to sell your house? If you have the time then sure why not but most people looking to sell their house are looking for a quick sale so that they can hurry up and get into that "dream" house/condo they all desire at a certain age. Buying or selling property is a very emotional transaction that can lead to some bad moves on your part if you're attempting to do it yourself but good luck if you feel you are up for it.

Answer me this. Why do people walk into a high end restaurant and pay $200 for a steak when they can buy the same steak for $50 at the local grocery store and cook it themselves? They do that because when they walk into a high end restaurant they feel damn special and they are served like a king and all they have to do is sit there and pick what they want and magically a magnificent steak appears in front of them within 15 minutes. Real estate agents do the exact same thing. They save on time, make you feel special, and voila...like magic...you've just sold your home or are now the proud owner of your dream house.

The average return on a Toronto based house was almost 10% last year and people are screaming bloody murder on a 5% commission fee to the broker. Let's put that in perspective. Your million dollar house is pulling in $100,000 every year while you sit on your butt eating popcorn and watching netflix. What exactly did you do to your house to warrant a hundred thousand dollar increase in value every year? Absolutely nothing. You actually owe it all to a really hot housing market and a fantastic location that many people dream of living in. Let's do some math here. You buy a house for $1,000,000. You live in it for 10 years and decide to sell it. Assuming a 10% return every year, you now own a house worth over $2,000,000 (if you include compounded interest). You pay the selling broker and the buying broker a total of 5% which equals $100,000 - MY GOD THAT IS A LOT OF MONEY! But guess what? In those 10 years your house went up in value OVER A MILLION DOLLARS! Now does it seem like the commission is too much? You seemed to have forgotten that your house just made you over a million dollars and can only see the very large...bolded... gigantic commission fee of $100,000

Geez. Who needs kleenex here? I'll just leave a few dozen boxes and you guys can go crazy...
Member
Jun 11, 2010
279 posts
142 upvotes
ottawa
themiddleman112 wrote:
Nov 20th, 2016 11:05 pm
The average return on a Toronto based house was almost 10% last year and people are screaming bloody murder on a 5% commission fee to the broker. Let's put that in perspective. Your million dollar house is pulling in $100,000 every year while you sit on your butt eating popcorn and watching netflix. What exactly did you do to your house to warrant a hundred thousand dollar increase in value every year? Absolutely nothing. You actually owe it all to a really hot housing market and a fantastic location that many people dream of living in. Let's do some math here. You buy a house for $1,000,000. You live in it for 10 years and decide to sell it. Assuming a 10% return every year, you now own a house worth over $2,000,000 (if you include compounded interest). You pay the selling broker and the buying broker a total of 5% which equals $100,000 - MY GOD THAT IS A LOT OF MONEY! But guess what? In those 10 years your house went up in value OVER A MILLION DOLLARS! Now does it seem like the commission is too much? You seemed to have forgotten that your house just made you over a million dollars (if you factor in compounding) and can only see the a very large...bolded... gigantic commission fee of $100,000

Geez. Who needs kleenex here? I'll just leave a few dozen boxes and you guys can go crazy...
Yeah, exactly, and they had to you know, live in and maintain the home for 10 years paying maintenance costs, property taxes, etc etc. It's not a million, it's a million less all those costs you've spent over the 10 years, and now on top of that you have to pay a broker 5% of the total sale price. Each year that owner paid $7-13k in property taxes, that's $100k over 10 years give or take. Average maintenance costs are 1% of the value of the house each year (pretty minimal estimate too) so $10k/year or $100k over 10 years. So your $1M is now down to $700k after your commission, less probably more costs that I'm not throwing in here.

We get it, you provide value, but don't go snubbing people off because they don't want to pay ludicrous commissions. I hope you become a Realtor, because with those attitudes you'll have 0 repeat customers, if any. I just purchased my first home without a Realtor, and went through all the paperwork myself because I trust my ability to do research and in the end way under negotiated what a Realtor could've done for me. I understand Realtors play an important role for those who don't want to do any of this on their own / have the money to spare, but to make it seem like everyone should just be paying you $100k for 30 days of work when they put in 10 years of work sounds a little naive.
Newbie
Nov 19, 2016
3 posts
1 upvote
barqers wrote:
Nov 20th, 2016 11:26 pm
Yeah, exactly, and they had to you know, live in and maintain the home for 10 years paying maintenance costs, property taxes, etc etc. It's not a million, it's a million less all those costs you've spent over the 10 years, and now on top of that you have to pay a broker 5% of the total sale price. Each year that owner paid $7-13k in property taxes, that's $100k over 10 years give or take. Average maintenance costs are 1% of the value of the house each year (pretty minimal estimate too) so $10k/year or $100k over 10 years. So your $1M is now down to $700k after your commission, less probably more costs that I'm not throwing in here.

We get it, you provide value, but don't go snubbing people off because they don't want to pay ludicrous commissions. I hope you become a Realtor, because with those attitudes you'll have 0 repeat customers, if any. I just purchased my first home without a Realtor, and went through all the paperwork myself because I trust my ability to do research and in the end way under negotiated what a Realtor could've done for me. I understand Realtors play an important role for those who don't want to do any of this on their own / have the money to spare, but to make it seem like everyone should just be paying you $100k for 30 days of work when they put in 10 years of work sounds a little naive.

You want a house? You pay for the house. And why yes that would include paying for the costs involved to keep that house standing!

My friend. In a hot market EVERYONE benefits. Would you rather have $700,000 in profit after 10 years or lose $300,000 in maintenance and taxes? Pretty simple I think.

And I am not "snubbing" anyone off. At the end of the day it is your choice as to what route you want to take. I just can't stand people crying over petty things. Hey guess what? We also pay 13% sales tax to the government and then they take even more from our salary. Sucks right? But do you like living here? I sure do. There is a cost to everything whether you like it or not. Venting about paying a 5% fee after you just made a 70% return on investment is pretty ridiculous.

Just my 2 cents.

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