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Chase Canada - All cards will be closed on March 15, 2018 | All debts wiped clear (Aug 8, 2019)

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Jul 15, 2009
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epiphano wrote: The Big 5 also charge $5 on international withdrawals. For debit transactions, the exchange rate is determined by the ATM supplier, which is likely inflated, and the Big 5 tackle 2.5% on top of it.

That's why I opened a Tangerine account: $2 for international withdrawals and no exchange fee, for the time being at least...
Yes, Tangerine is good for this.

I searched thoroughly and did not find any bank other than Tangerine that charges less than $5 for an international withdrawal.

However, Tangerine refuses to say how much they inflate the foreign exchange fee, and there are various other threads on here that suggest that it is the same 2.5% as other banks. My personal experience confirms that, although it is impossible to say exactly due to the fluctuations of exchange rates over time.

My general strategy for getting cash is to use Chase Amazon for amounts over $200 and Tangerine for amounts under $200. At the $200 mark, the Chase fee amounts to 2.5% ($5 on $200), while the Tangerine fee is presumably $7 (2.5% of $200 plus $2). All other banks would be $10 (2.5% of $200 plus $5). I generally try to get at least $500 at a time to get the Chase fee down to 1%.
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Mar 25, 2005
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bubak wrote: Yes, Tangerine is good for this.

I searched thoroughly and did not find any bank other than Tangerine that charges less than $5 for an international withdrawal.

However, Tangerine refuses to say how much they inflate the foreign exchange fee, and there are various other threads on here that suggest that it is the same 2.5% as other banks. My personal experience confirms that, although it is impossible to say exactly due to the fluctuations of exchange rates over time.

My general strategy for getting cash is to use Chase Amazon for amounts over $200 and Tangerine for amounts under $200. At the $200 mark, the Chase fee amounts to 2.5% ($5 on $200), while the Tangerine fee is presumably $7 (2.5% of $200 plus $2). All other banks would be $10 (2.5% of $200 plus $5). I generally try to get at least $500 at a time to get the Chase fee down to 1%.
This! When I was in France I found the Tangerine rates to be 3-5% over spot. Its was not cheap to say the least.
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bubak wrote: Yes, Tangerine is good for this.

I searched thoroughly and did not find any bank other than Tangerine that charges less than $5 for an international withdrawal.

However, Tangerine refuses to say how much they inflate the foreign exchange fee, and there are various other threads on here that suggest that it is the same 2.5% as other banks. My personal experience confirms that, although it is impossible to say exactly due to the fluctuations of exchange rates over time.

My general strategy for getting cash is to use Chase Amazon for amounts over $200 and Tangerine for amounts under $200. At the $200 mark, the Chase fee amounts to 2.5% ($5 on $200), while the Tangerine fee is presumably $7 (2.5% of $200 plus $2). All other banks would be $10 (2.5% of $200 plus $5). I generally try to get at least $500 at a time to get the Chase fee down to 1%.
I think you are confusing two different aspects of foreign exchange. 'inflating the foreign exchange fee' and 'the same 2.5% as other banks' are two separate things. The first is the exchange rate charged, and the second is then an additional 2.5% forex charge applied on top of the exchange rate which is what most credit card companies typically charge (except for the Chase amazon.ca and Sears Visa cards and maybe another one or two I don't know about). I tested amazon.ca Chase Visa in the US to make sure they weren't simply inflating the exchange rate and not charging the 2.5%. Turns out they were charging the $USD/$CDN exchange rate set by VISA (which is close the the many different bank spot rates you'll find) and not charging the 2.5%.

An example: I was just in Florida last week. A friend needed some US cash and so we went to a TD Bank. His ScotiaBank bank card kept getting rejected but mine didn't so I took out $400 using my Presidents Choice Financial bank card to lend to him. The exchange rate was 1.16397. I also made two separate purchases an hour later on the same day using my amazon.ca Visa card. The exchange rate charged was 1.34546 and 1.135. The TD rate was 1.025524 times the amazon.ca Visa rate or about 2.55% more (the difference is attributable to the fact that banks and Visa International uses different bank spot rates which are nevertheless quite close but not exactly the same). But what matters in the end is the rate you paid. A credit card company could just jack up the exchange rate and eliminate the 2.5% forex fee and then claim they charge no forex fee. So you have to be wary of this with banks like Tangerine too. Also, then there's the withdrawal fee, both the one charged by the correspondent bank (ie the foreign bank you are using to access your account) and your domestic bank. In this case TD US charged $3 US and TD Canada charged $3 CDN. So the total cost of this $400 US was $403 x 1.16397 = 469.08 $CDN + $3 CDN = $472.08 for an effective rate of $472.08/$400 = 1.1802 or 1.1802/1.135 = 3.98% more!

Now if you add the fact that amazon.ca Visa results in a $5 charge for withdrawal of the same amount then it would have cost $400 x 1.135 + $5 = $459/$400 = 1.475 so TD still was 1.1802/1.475 = 2.85% more. But this is not including the interest charge from Visa.

But, do I really want to be paying off my balance prior to a trip AND in addition paying all of my expenses for the trip AND any pre-authorized charges AND any cash advances I will need for the trip into my Visa account before I leave (and then risking maybe miscalculating and having to pay interest or, possibly worse still, accessing my home bank account on a foreign wireless connection on my laptop or smartphone in order to pay off my Visa account and possible then getting it compromised?). No way!

As for Tangerine, one really needs to know what the exchange rate they charge is. Don't get fooled by the $2 international withdrawal fee. That might just be a discount off a higher price and a crafty ruse to reel in those who don't understand foreign exchange fees and rates. Typically though I hardly ever use cash any more when travelling and use my amazon.ca Visa instead and have not had any problem using it. No withdrawal fee, no 2.5% forex fee and just the bank spot rate being charged (and I know it is almost exactly the bank spot rate as I have cross checked a few times now). I don't really understand why some people need to keep taking out cash from an ATM when travelling these days when credit cards are accepted universally these days for even the smallest purchases. I just carry a small amount of cash with me for those vendors that don't take credit cards.
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bubak wrote: Yes, Tangerine is good for this.

I searched thoroughly and did not find any bank other than Tangerine that charges less than $5 for an international withdrawal.

However, Tangerine refuses to say how much they inflate the foreign exchange fee, and there are various other threads on here that suggest that it is the same 2.5% as other banks. My personal experience confirms that, although it is impossible to say exactly due to the fluctuations of exchange rates over time.

My general strategy for getting cash is to use Chase Amazon for amounts over $200 and Tangerine for amounts under $200. At the $200 mark, the Chase fee amounts to 2.5% ($5 on $200), while the Tangerine fee is presumably $7 (2.5% of $200 plus $2). All other banks would be $10 (2.5% of $200 plus $5). I generally try to get at least $500 at a time to get the Chase fee down to 1%.
They don't inflate the rate for US$ transactions at least. This is posted on their website:
Please note that USD funds withdrawn from an ABM will be exchanged based on the current foreign exchange rate of the financial institution providing the money.
https://secure.tangerine.ca/web/Tangeri ... AbmLocator
I've communicated with them before about this issue and they didn't mention anything about inflating the rate. They always use the rate charged by the foreign bank regardless of the currency.
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Jul 15, 2009
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Most credit and debit cardholder agreements explicitly specify the forex rate charged as 2.5% above the Visa international rate or the Mastercard rate or the wholesale rate received by the bank. These base rates are close enough to spot as to be mostly negligible. Some agreements split it out as an extra fee, others specify that it is included in the amount charged, but it makes no difference: either way, you're paying 2.5% over spot. The only card that I'm aware of that doesn't specify it in the agreement (or anywhere else) is Tangerine. The Chase Amazon agreement specifies that you get the Visa international rate with no surcharge.

As for fees charged by the ATM owner, I travel mostly in Europe where this is generally not done, at least not for foreign cards.

The cash flow is not an issue for me because my chequing account is a HELOC. I usually have a secure internet connection when I travel, so yes, I pay off my Visa by the appropriate amount while abroad, just before or after a withdrawal.

I also pay with the credit card whenever possible, but I also shop at many places that don't take credit.
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Kasakato wrote: This! When I was in France I found the Tangerine rates to be 3-5% over spot. Its was not cheap to say the least.
Yes, I found the rate to be 2-4% depending on the country or ATM. It may be the rate charged by the ATM issuer. This is on top of the flat $2 fee by Tangerine.
eonibm wrote: But, do I really want to be paying off my balance prior to a trip AND in addition paying all of my expenses for the trip AND any pre-authorized charges AND any cash advances I will need for the trip into my Visa account before I leave (and then risking maybe miscalculating and having to pay interest or, possibly worse still, accessing my home bank account on a foreign wireless connection on my laptop or smartphone in order to pay off my Visa account and possible then getting it compromised?). No way!
The best strategy for using this card is planning ahead of your time and withdraw what you think you'll need using a cash advance. So if you'll need $500 CAD worth, pre-pay maybe $600 in advance, let it post and then withdraw $500, making sure your balance is negative and that the withdrawal has properly posted before putting purchases on the card, then you use the card as much as you can for purchases, saving 2.5% over competing cards. Use cash only when necessary and top-up using debit withdrawals for small amounts or at currency exchanges using the money you had previously withdrew (that's how I did it in Europe when there's so many different currencies being used but the main one being the Euro).
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If you travel with your spouse, have them apply for a card too and have you as a supp holder

Use one account for spend, the other for cash advances
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epiphano wrote: They don't inflate the rate for US$ transactions at least. This is posted on their website:



I've communicated with them before about this issue and they didn't mention anything about inflating the rate. They always use the rate charged by the foreign bank regardless of the currency.
Yes but what makes you think the foreign bank doesn't inflate the exchange rate? I'd rather be charged the rate set by Visa International rather than a rate set at the whim of a foreign bank.
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lhsonic wrote: Yes, I found the rate to be 2-4% depending on the country or ATM. It may be the rate charged by the ATM issuer. This is on top of the flat $2 fee by Tangerine.



The best strategy for using this card is planning ahead of your time and withdraw what you think you'll need using a cash advance. So if you'll need $500 CAD worth, pre-pay maybe $600 in advance, let it post and then withdraw $500, making sure your balance is negative and that the withdrawal has properly posted before putting purchases on the card, then you use the card as much as you can for purchases, saving 2.5% over competing cards. Use cash only when necessary and top-up using debit withdrawals for small amounts or at currency exchanges using the money you had previously withdrew (that's how I did it in Europe when there's so many different currencies being used but the main one being the Euro).
Yes and that means having to do exactly all the things I mentioned. Why bother? It only costs you money and time. Convert a few bucks at a currency exchange and use a no forex fee credit card for the majority of your purchases.
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eonibm wrote: Convert a few bucks at a currency exchange
Why bother? It only costs you money and time.
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bubak wrote: Why bother? It only costs you money and time.
Well because you have to do it anyway unless you want to take the risk of arriving in a foreign country with not a penny of their currency. And even if you do, it's certainly way less time, cost and hassle than prepaying your credit card and constantly monitoring it to make sure you always have a negative balance.
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eonibm wrote: Well because you have to do it anyway unless you want to take the risk of arriving in a foreign country with not a penny of their currency. And even if you do, it's certainly way less time, cost and hassle than prepaying your credit card and constantly monitoring it to make sure you always have a negative balance.
You only need a negative balance when you take the CA. I dont know how you bank but paying my CC bill takes a minute online. :lol:

If not having local currency bothers you, pay the $10 and 5% forex places want. Unless I'm going to a developing nation, my Visa is a pretty good bet.
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eonibm wrote: Yes but what makes you think the foreign bank doesn't inflate the exchange rate? I'd rather be charged the rate set by Visa International rather than a rate set at the whim of a foreign bank.
I never said that. Of course the foreign bank's rate is inflated. But at least Tangerine doesn't tackle 2.5% on top of it like the Big 5 do.
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epiphano wrote: I never said that. Of course the foreign bank's rate is inflated. But at least Tangerine doesn't tackle 2.5% on top of it like the Big 5 do.
Yes so you need to realize that using Tangerine may result in the foreign banks' inflated rate without 2.5% being tacked on being greater than the Big 5's rate with the 2.5% tacked on. Focusing on that 2.5% is obviously way misplaced emphasis.
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Kasakato wrote: You only need a negative balance when you take the CA. I dont know how you bank but paying my CC bill takes a minute online. :lol:
Part of the reason for having a credit card is not paying off your balance way in advance not to mention trying to project what your expenses might be for the trip in order to make sure you have a negative balance when you need a cash advance. Why bother? Also, say you are out and need a cash advance, but lo and behold you've already taken a cash advance on the negative balance you have and have made some credit card purchases and you have a positive balance owing. So, what do you do? Run back to your hotel, check your balance, see which of your chequing (big problem if you don't have the $), then pay it off if you do, run back out to an ATM, take the money out, etc. Then a few days later you need more cash. Go through the whole rigmorole again. I don't know about you but when I travel I don't need these kinds of hassles nor do I see the need to pay thousands of dollars of on my credit card in advance.
Kasakato wrote: If not having local currency bothers you, pay the $10 and 5% forex places want. Unless I'm going to a developing nation, my Visa is a pretty good bet.
It should bother everyone. Maybe you don't travel much but if you do you'll know what a hassle it is to arrive in a foreign country, have no local currency, find you can only pay cash (say for a cab, a SIM card in the airport, a bite to eat, etc) and there isn't a convenient foreign currency exchange or they are closed. You're screwed.

Obviously you aren't a seasoned traveller because if you were you'd know it's the cardinal rule of travel. Always have some local currency with you upon arrival. As such, you'll be converting some currency before you leave anyway.

My Visa is a good bet too and that's what I use for most purchases, but not for cash advances because, um, a credit card is for, well - credit!
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eonibm wrote: Part of the reason for having a credit card is not paying off your balance way in advance not to mention trying to project what your expenses might be for the trip in order to make sure you have a negative balance when you need a cash advance. Why bother? Also, say you are out and need a cash advance, but lo and behold you've already taken a cash advance on the negative balance you have and have made some credit card purchases and you have a positive balance owing. So, what do you do? Run back to your hotel, check your balance, see which of your chequing (big problem if you don't have the $), then pay it off if you do, run back out to an ATM, take the money out, etc. Then a few days later you need more cash. Go through the whole rigmorole again. I don't know about you but when I travel I don't need these kinds of hassles nor do I see the need to pay thousands of dollars of on my credit card in advance.



It should bother everyone. Maybe you don't travel much but if you do you'll know what a hassle it is to arrive in a foreign country, have no local currency, find you can only pay cash (say for a cab, a SIM card in the airport, a bite to eat, etc) and there isn't a convenient foreign currency exchange or they are closed. You're screwed.

Obviously you aren't a seasoned traveller because if you were you'd know it's the cardinal rule of travel. Always have some local currency with you upon arrival. As such, you'll be converting some currency before you leave anyway.

My Visa is a good bet too and that's what I use for most purchases, but not for cash advances because, um, a credit card is for, well - credit!
Travelling with you sounds like a disaster. Unless you're visiting some devloping country without technology, credit is widely accepted.

Before you leave dump some money on the card, when you get there take a cash advance and be done with it. Forecast properly and do it once, never had an issue.

If you can find an investment that pays more than 2.5% a month, let me know. Until then I'll continue to pocket the savings. But hey if you want to pay $2 to $8 in ATM fees plus 2-5% because it's too complex, be my guest.
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Kasakato wrote: Travelling with you sounds like a disaster. Unless you're visiting some devloping country without technology, credit is widely accepted.

Before you leave dump some money on the card, when you get there take a cash advance and be done with it. Forecast properly and do it once, never had an issue.

If you can find an investment that pays more than 2.5% a month, let me know. Until then I'll continue to pocket the savings. But hey if you want to pay $2 to $8 in ATM fees plus 2-5% because it's too complex, be my guest.
Quite the opposite actually. You're the one arriving with no local cash and therefore might find yourself in a pickle, not me LOL!!!

I exchange a few bucks at a currency exchange before leaving if it's anywhere but the US, UK or Australia (since I always have a few dollars of their funds) and am done with it. I use my credit card all the time when travelling and hence hardly ever use any cash but I am not foolhardy and arrive without even a dollar of local currency. So, I am not paying $2-$8 in ATM fees plus 2-5%. I can't even remember the last time I used a foreign ATM to take cash out (other than, as I mentioned above, last week when I took some money out to lend to my friend as his bank card kept getting rejected in Florida - and then he paid the fees, not me).

Paying off thousands of dollars on my credit card in advance just to save a few pennies? No thanks. I am into hassle-free travel. But this is RFD so I guess there will always be a few penny-pinchers around like you who decide they are going to turn their trip into a hassle.
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eonibm wrote: Yes so you need to realize that using Tangerine may result in the foreign banks' inflated rate without 2.5% being tacked on being greater than the Big 5's rate with the 2.5% tacked on. Focusing on that 2.5% is obviously way misplaced emphasis.
Of course I realize that. No one knows on the sport what the foreign bank's rate is. The point I've been making since the beginning is that for international withdrawals with a debit card, Tangerine is by far the cheapest. If you want to use your Amazon Visa with a better rate but with a 1% fee, that's your business.

I don't know what "way displaced emphasis" means and the Big 5's exchange rate is irrelevant in this discussion unless you go at the bank before your trip and pay everything in cash.
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Chase doesn't want to approve me for any of their cards. I've been approved for 2 MBNA cards (RWE and TrueLine) as well as 2 Scotia Bank cards (the Visa Momentum Infinite and the Scotia Amex Gold). I really don't know why they are so picky, but I've been denied a few times now (I waited before reapplying).

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