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$15 minimum wage in Ontario

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  • Jul 2nd, 2015 11:18 am
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Deal Fanatic
Sep 5, 2002
6630 posts
964 upvotes
Do min wage people plan to stay at min wage jobs forever?
Deal Fanatic
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Sep 1, 2013
6198 posts
762 upvotes
MayorOfToronto wrote: What?

Human greed is human nature. You know what else is human nature? Compassion, empathy, respect. Why not build a system around that instead of the negative traits of humans? Why not build an economic system that has some sort of relevance to humans or some actual intrinsic value rather than one built around arbitrary numbers on a computer screen backed by a fiat currency?
I think our system has a fair dose of compassion, empathy and respect. We have many charities, we have government tax breaks and support programs for lower income people, we have laws and policies that respect diversity in society, accommodate people of different cultures, religions, sexual orientation, etc. Even multi-billionaires like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, whom you could accuse of excessive greed, contribute quite a bit of their personal wealth for socially beneficial purposes.
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Jul 13, 2014
6054 posts
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Parry Sound
JohnB wrote: Do min wage people plan to stay at min wage jobs forever?
They shouldn't. However, it's much more difficult to escape min wage jobs when you're stuck living in min wage poverty. Time and money is required to move up in this world.

Also, again I'll mention that increasing min wage doesn't only affect min wagers and bring them above the poverty line, it also benefits the low wage earners. Jobs that used to pay $20-$30/hour are now paying $15 per hour. Is it the individuals fault for not being able to magically, accurately predict the future job market and economy? What's the solution for these people? Change careers? Yes, definitely an option that many are taking but most industries have gone through this downgrade in pay.
CheapScotch wrote: I think our system has a fair dose of compassion, empathy and respect. We have many charities, we have government tax breaks and support programs for lower income people, we have laws and policies that respect diversity in society, accommodate people of different cultures, religions, sexual orientation, etc. Even multi-billionaires like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, whom you could accuse of excessive greed, contribute quite a bit of their personal wealth for socially beneficial purposes.
You keep mixing our socio-political system with our economic system. The economic system is a joke (more so in USA than in Canada). Using one to justify the other makes absolutely no sense.
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Sep 1, 2013
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MayorOfToronto wrote: You keep mixing our socio-political system with our economic system.
Of course I mix them, because they are closely interrelated. Do you think that our economic prosperity is not influenced by our political and social institutions?
MayorOfToronto wrote: The economic system is a joke (more so in USA than in Canada). Using one to justify the other makes absolutely no sense.
Our economic system brings you, me and everyone in this country a level of material wealth much higher than the developing world today and much higher than anywhere in the world before modern times. Call that a joke if you will, but I would rather live in Canada today than in a developing country, or live 200 years ago anywhere in the world.
Deal Addict
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Feb 24, 2015
1032 posts
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Fort Mac, AB/Lambton…
divx wrote: everything looks great on paper, so it all comes down to implementation. Capitalism is based on human greed, which is much easier to implement since that's human nature, whereas the commies are working against human nature, so it is impossible to implement.
Humans are greedy. That will always be the case. We want more. The great thing about capitalism is that it creates a system by which human greed can benefit everyone.

Go back thousands of years, before the invention of tools. I invent a net that allows me to catch many more fish than I can catch with my hands. It's totally sweet. Now it takes no time at all for me to take care of my basic dietary needs. Good for me. But it's not good for anyone else. I let my best friends know about it, to help them out. After all, that's what friends do. But I'm not going to go out of my way to teach others how to build my net. Ain't nobody got time for that. I have to look after my own needs. So only my friends and I get the nicety of being able to easily catch fish. We get lots of leisure time, and we can store fish for days when the weather sucks and/or when the fish are hard to find. Life is good. For us - and only us.

But what about the people in the nearby village? They don't see; they don't know about the net; they wouldn't know how to make a net even if they knew about it. I'm not going to teach them. I can't teach everyone in the world how to build a net, and besides, I have to take care of myself. No one else is going to.

What if I asked them for fruit in exchange for the time I spend teaching net-building? Then I don't have to look for fruit for myself. Those villagers can decide whether it's worth it or not to provide me with fruit in exchange for net-building lessons. If they find it's worth it, then we've struck a deal. I now have a reason to teach them, and they're more than willing to learn. They're even willing to give me fruit just to teach them how to build a net. It's a win-win.

Sure, I was greedy. I wouldn't have helped them if they didn't help me (by providing me with fruit), but we've now struck a win-win situation. My greed is now actually something useful to others.

Without capitalism, you rely on people's charity. If a person is not charitable and is not rewarded for sharing, then he or she will not share. So the net stays between him and his friends. No one else knows of it. Does this sound good to you? Who wins in this situation?
Deal Guru
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Mar 1, 2004
12861 posts
1485 upvotes
Pickering
JohnB wrote: Do min wage people plan to stay at min wage jobs forever?
Do people who are at minimum wage jobs forever plan?

I worked with a group of people at McDonalds when I was 16 and they were still there 20 years later and not as managers. I don't know if they did the job to make ends meet or just for fun. They were at least 45+ when I was 16.

The question is, if two married people were at a minimum wage job and married and could afford necessities, would they work harder to get more money or just stay there? While a lot of people seem to believe that people would advance, there are those that believe that it makes it easier to never try to improve ones's self. If this is the situation, would then students and people who don't have enough brain power to make it in the world would still not be able to get a job because the others who are not ambitious/not able would hold the minimum wage jobs forever?

There are those that believe if you increase the minimum wage, the public won't have to support those people via programs. Of course if the costs of everyday services go up, you might end up paying for it in the front end anyway.

There are those that believe that if you do pay a higher minimum wage, recipients who decide to keep those jobs forever will up their demands because they will look for more accommodations because it isn't fair that they can only get by, now they will want more.
Deal Addict
Jul 8, 2013
4498 posts
6936 upvotes
Somewhere in AB
JohnB wrote: Do min wage people plan to stay at min wage jobs forever?
Isn't minimum wage job just a stepping stone for a better paying jobs? Aren't minimum wage jobs there just to gain experience? Most importantly, do the facts not prove that most people who are paid minimum wage are just students between the ages of 15 and 19?

Why in the world should we then increase the wages to $15 an hour for these students? They will NOT get hired. Is this what we want?

Businesses are there to make profit; as someone said earlier, they are not charities. Businesses just won't hire people or worse yet, they will make the minimum wage worker work even that much harder.
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Jul 13, 2014
6054 posts
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Parry Sound
TuxedoBlack wrote: Isn't minimum wage job just a stepping stone for a better paying jobs? Aren't minimum wage jobs there just to gain experience? Most importantly, do the facts not prove that most people who are paid minimum wage are just students between the ages of 15 and 19?

Why in the world should we then increase the wages to $15 an hour for these students? They will NOT get hired. Is this what we want?

Businesses are there to make profit; as someone said earlier, they are not charities. Businesses just won't hire people or worse yet, they will make the minimum wage worker work even that much harder.
No. There is absolutely no fact that supports your claim of only 15-19 year old students are working minimum wage. Most students of that age aren't even working full-time and aren't taken into consideration in most surveys. You do know that the minimum wage for students under the age of 18 is lower than the provincial minimum wage, right?

You know what happens when businesses don't hire people? Work doesn't get done.

Try running a business on your own then try hiring 1 or 2 employees. Yea, it will take money out of your revenue but at the end of the year your revenue will be much higher.

You really think a business will just fire their bottom line if minimum wage raises? LOL
Member
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Jun 26, 2012
456 posts
82 upvotes
canada
divx wrote: everyone is in it for themselves, that's what capitalism is all about, you want it about the "greater good"? there is communism

In capitalist society you cannot possibly be in it just for yourself... or your business will fail. Think about a grocery store. They offer all kinds of food for YOU, the consumer. Often they sell some products that they don't even need to be selling - to you - at a loss, or break even price. They are being selfless. Sure they are trying to get you in the store more, but they are also trying to help you. Ever gone in to a capitalist store and had good customer service? You think that's all about them only? Sure they are trying to earn your business by being good to you - but if there is an incentive for being good to people, why is that wrong? Should we instead offer no incentive and just magically force everyone to be equal, even though there is no such thing? Should garbage men make the exact same amount of money as brain surgeons or the person who invents the cure for cancer?
Deal Expert
User avatar
Oct 26, 2003
39343 posts
6342 upvotes
Winnipeg
MayorOfToronto wrote: They shouldn't. However, it's much more difficult to escape min wage jobs when you're stuck living in min wage poverty. Time and money is required to move up in this world.

Also, again I'll mention that increasing min wage doesn't only affect min wagers and bring them above the poverty line, it also benefits the low wage earners. Jobs that used to pay $20-$30/hour are now paying $15 per hour. Is it the individuals fault for not being able to magically, accurately predict the future job market and economy? What's the solution for these people? Change careers? Yes, definitely an option that many are taking but most industries have gone through this downgrade in pay.



You keep mixing our socio-political system with our economic system. The economic system is a joke (more so in USA than in Canada). Using one to justify the other makes absolutely no sense.
pffft nobody can predict the future, all we know is the future is always changing and we just have to adapt to it. One day we will all be on welfare and society will be run by our robot overlord.
Deal Expert
User avatar
Oct 26, 2003
39343 posts
6342 upvotes
Winnipeg
justaskthescientician wrote: Humans are greedy. That will always be the case. We want more. The great thing about capitalism is that it creates a system by which human greed can benefit everyone.

Go back thousands of years, before the invention of tools. I invent a net that allows me to catch many more fish than I can catch with my hands. It's totally sweet. Now it takes no time at all for me to take care of my basic dietary needs. Good for me. But it's not good for anyone else. I let my best friends know about it, to help them out. After all, that's what friends do. But I'm not going to go out of my way to teach others how to build my net. Ain't nobody got time for that. I have to look after my own needs. So only my friends and I get the nicety of being able to easily catch fish. We get lots of leisure time, and we can store fish for days when the weather sucks and/or when the fish are hard to find. Life is good. For us - and only us.

But what about the people in the nearby village? They don't see; they don't know about the net; they wouldn't know how to make a net even if they knew about it. I'm not going to teach them. I can't teach everyone in the world how to build a net, and besides, I have to take care of myself. No one else is going to.

What if I asked them for fruit in exchange for the time I spend teaching net-building? Then I don't have to look for fruit for myself. Those villagers can decide whether it's worth it or not to provide me with fruit in exchange for net-building lessons. If they find it's worth it, then we've struck a deal. I now have a reason to teach them, and they're more than willing to learn. They're even willing to give me fruit just to teach them how to build a net. It's a win-win.

Sure, I was greedy. I wouldn't have helped them if they didn't help me (by providing me with fruit), but we've now struck a win-win situation. My greed is now actually something useful to others.

Without capitalism, you rely on people's charity. If a person is not charitable and is not rewarded for sharing, then he or she will not share. So the net stays between him and his friends. No one else knows of it. Does this sound good to you? Who wins in this situation?
explain it to the commies, i already know how capitalism works
Deal Expert
User avatar
Oct 26, 2003
39343 posts
6342 upvotes
Winnipeg
MayorOfToronto wrote: No. There is absolutely no fact that supports your claim of only 15-19 year old students are working minimum wage. Most students of that age aren't even working full-time and aren't taken into consideration in most surveys. You do know that the minimum wage for students under the age of 18 is lower than the provincial minimum wage, right?

You know what happens when businesses don't hire people? Work doesn't get done.

Try running a business on your own then try hiring 1 or 2 employees. Yea, it will take money out of your revenue but at the end of the year your revenue will be much higher.

You really think a business will just fire their bottom line if minimum wage raises? LOL
you really think minimum wage jobs are that hard to automate? if the rate is high enough that the cost of automation makes sense, it will. If they really wanted to, automation can occur at higher level jobs, but the cost of automation would be absurd.
Deal Expert
User avatar
Oct 26, 2003
39343 posts
6342 upvotes
Winnipeg
dontplaywithfire wrote: In capitalist society you cannot possibly be in it just for yourself... or your business will fail. Think about a grocery store. They offer all kinds of food for YOU, the consumer. Often they sell some products that they don't even need to be selling - to you - at a loss, or break even price. They are being selfless. Sure they are trying to get you in the store more, but they are also trying to help you. Ever gone in to a capitalist store and had good customer service? You think that's all about them only? Sure they are trying to earn your business by being good to you - but if there is an incentive for being good to people, why is that wrong? Should we instead offer no incentive and just magically force everyone to be equal, even though there is no such thing? Should garbage men make the exact same amount of money as brain surgeons or the person who invents the cure for cancer?
actually we are on the same page, save your words for the commies
Sr. Member
Sep 10, 2014
533 posts
89 upvotes
Dartmouth, NS
MayorOfToronto wrote: Where did you come up with that obscure number?
It was a sarcastic response to the post I was quoting.
Sharks316 wrote: ] BC and Ontario needs higher min. wage more so BC. While the rest of the country can survive off min. Wage because living cost is cheap and house prices are so low.

Like my cousin bought a house in Manitoba for $385,000 it's 4,500 sq feet. Here in North Vancouver if u want a 5,000 Sq feet it will cost $2 million+.
As if $385,000 is nothing, sure it's less than $2 Mil but it's still a lot of money

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