PC & Video Games

Sooo about Sekiro...

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  • Apr 6th, 2019 12:44 pm
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Deal Fanatic
Dec 28, 2005
7805 posts
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gatorb6 wrote: Nice work! How long did it take you to finish it? I hope to pick it up in a few months or so when I can dedicate a bit more time to playing it.
About 45 hours. The game really gets much easier once you understand that it does not (except for a few areas) reward dodging and instead you need to focus on parrying and then unloading.
Deal Fanatic
Oct 23, 2004
9849 posts
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Toronto
unshavenyak wrote: About 45 hours. The game really gets much easier once you understand that it does not (except for a few areas) reward dodging and instead you need to focus on parrying and then unloading.
How long did it take you or how many tries to get past that annoying ass Shinobi Hunter miniboss at the estate? I gave him about a dozen tries but the process of having to fight your way back through the corridor of easy enemies then stealthing out the guys around him before you're able to fight him 1 on 1 again was a tad too repetitive for my tastes. I came close and could probably beat him in a few more tries but I don't find the process appealing or satisfying and can't fathom doing 40+ more hours of that. I might come back to it later and whip through the game with a trainer just to check out the rest of the artwork and character designs which I do like
Deal Fanatic
Dec 28, 2005
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ReeGee wrote: How long did it take you or how many tries to get past that annoying ass Shinobi Hunter miniboss at the estate? I gave him about a dozen tries but the process of having to fight your way back through the corridor of easy enemies then stealthing out the guys around him before you're able to fight him 1 on 1 again was a tad too repetitive for my tastes. I came close and could probably beat him in a few more tries but I don't find the process appealing or satisfying and can't fathom doing 40+ more hours of that. I might come back to it later and whip through the game with a trainer just to check out the rest of the artwork and character designs which I do like
Are you talking about the Hinata Estate? If you are, one try. I had already killed the Ogre and was primed for the kanji ultra attacks. All of those enemies get easier once you learn the Mikiri Counter technique.

Edit: Also, after the first time I died to the Ogre, the very first thing I did was re-map all my keys. Only the Japanese could come up with such an inefficient control scheme. At the very least re-map your item use key to something on the right of the keypad so you can heal while moving.
Deal Fanatic
Oct 23, 2004
9849 posts
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Toronto
unshavenyak wrote: Are you talking about the Hinata Estate? If you are, one try. I had already killed the Ogre and was primed for the kanji ultra attacks. All of those enemies get easier once you learn the Mikiri Counter technique.
LOL one try. That's crazy because I was looking up tips on Reddit and asking my gaming group on twitter and mad people seem to be stuck on that fight as well and couldn't help me. I have and was using the Mikiri counter already and while that does make it a bit easier to inflict damage I still tend to mistime it or misread the attack and get smoked. Did you beat Lady Butterfly and Genichiro in one try as well?Face With Tears Of Joy I saw that was what was waiting for me after and said ya i'm good on this and started playing Metro instead lol
Deal Fanatic
Dec 28, 2005
7805 posts
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Germany
ReeGee wrote: LOL one try. That's crazy because I was looking up tips on Reddit and asking my gaming group on twitter and mad people seem to be stuck on that fight as well and couldn't help me. I have and was using the Mikiri counter already and while that does make it a bit easier to inflict damage I still tend to mistime it or misread the attack and get smoked. Did you beat Lady Butterfly and Genichiro in one try as well?Face With Tears Of Joy I saw that was what was waiting for me after and said ya i'm good on this and started playing Metro instead lol
No. I died to Lady Butterfly many, many, many times until I realized you can dodge her attacks and interrupt her with the shuriken. Then she died really fast. The game honestly gets way easier once you get a few things from the skill tree and understand that your best offense is parrying and using the grappling hook to run away as needed. This game doesn't really punish you like the other Souls game for using the homeward idol to retreat. The worst thing that happens is you run past or obliterate the trash again and re-try.

I will also say that these posts illustrate why I think these games are so fantastic. They reward learning, experimentation and thoughtfulness in a way that few games do. The Ogre was a pain in the ass until I found the flame arm and understood that you can grappling hook him in the face, kick him and cause major posture damage. Lady Butterfly was awful until I experimented with the shuriken and dodging. The combat, open endedness and level design are something that few companies do these days.
Deal Fanatic
Oct 23, 2004
9849 posts
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unshavenyak wrote: No. I died to Lady Butterfly many, many, many times until I realized you can dodge her attacks and interrupt her with the shuriken. Then she died really fast. The game honestly gets way easier once you get a few things from the skill tree and understand that your best offense is parrying and using the grappling hook to run away as needed. This game doesn't really punish you like the other Souls game for using the homeward idol to retreat. The worst thing that happens is you run past or obliterate the trash again and re-try.

I will also say that these posts illustrate why I think these games are so fantastic. They reward learning, experimentation and thoughtfulness in a way that few games do. The Ogre was a pain in the ass until I found the flame arm and understood that you can grappling hook him in the face, kick him and cause major posture damage. Lady Butterfly was awful until I experimented with the shuriken and dodging. The combat, open endedness and level design are something that few companies do these days.
I hear what you'e saying and understand that's why people like these games but at the same time needing to do and see the same thing "many many many" times before you get it right can be extremely repetitive and offputting to stick with when there's a dozen other games to get to and limited time to get to them. The way I see it this is a pretty straight forward action game with 5-10 hours worth of content (someone has speed run it in 1 hour) that forces you to spend 50+ hours on it dealing with obscure difficulty that can only be overcome by sheer repetition of trail and error. Again I get it, that's the entire appeal of it and while I agree it's a cool game that fills a niche I don't think that type of gameplay design is deserving of perfect scores and GOTY discussion in 2019
Deal Fanatic
Dec 28, 2005
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ReeGee wrote: I hear what you'e saying and understand that's why people like these games but at the same time needing to do and see the same thing "many many many" times before you get it right can be extremely repetitive and offputting to stick with when there's a dozen other games to get to and limited time to get to them. The way I see it this is a pretty straight forward action game with 5-10 hours worth of content (someone has speed run it in 1 hour) that forces you to spend 50+ hours on it dealing with obscure difficulty that can only be overcome by sheer repetition of trail and error. Again I get it, that's the entire appeal of it and while I agree it's a cool game that fills a niche I don't think that type of gameplay design is deserving of perfect scores and GOTY discussion in 2019
That's the thing though. It's not sheer repetition. Once you understand the mechanics and what counters what, you can obliterate enemies. If your timing is off, you will be punished (this is a very rhythmic game), but it's never unfair or repetitive. I found myself getting into a nice groove once things clicked and moving much, much faster than before. The fact that it doesn't hold your hand and forces you to discover things is what makes it rank so highly for me.
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Aug 20, 2009
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ReeGee wrote: I hear what you'e saying and understand that's why people like these games but at the same time needing to do and see the same thing "many many many" times before you get it right can be extremely repetitive and offputting to stick with when there's a dozen other games to get to and limited time to get to them. The way I see it this is a pretty straight forward action game with 5-10 hours worth of content (someone has speed run it in 1 hour) that forces you to spend 50+ hours on it dealing with obscure difficulty that can only be overcome by sheer repetition of trail and error. Again I get it, that's the entire appeal of it and while I agree it's a cool game that fills a niche I don't think that type of gameplay design is deserving of perfect scores and GOTY discussion in 2019
No no no, it's not the appeal of these games. If you are running into brick walls over and over again it is the game telling you that your approach isn't working and needs to be changed. I feel like people had the same complaints about Hollow Knight and my answer was the same there. I've even felt this way a few times but once I stopped locking myself into one gameplay approach or mindset then I usually overcame that obstacle. These games are difficult and punish you severely for mistakes which is how they differ from other games on the market. THAT is their appeal, not repetition. They reward you for mastery and subversion of the games systems and mechanics. The enemies are there to prevent you from brute forcing the bosses USING repetition and frankly most are rote once you know what you're doing.

I'm not sure why you're so hung up over whether or not its called GOTY or not, there is a long way to go yet this year. It is a great game that might not be for you and I don't see why that's a problem. I'm not into fighting games anymore but if a really good one comes out with high scores then I'm not going to begrudge it charting well on Metacritic or being discussed for GOTY.
Deal Fanatic
Oct 23, 2004
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Redmask wrote: I'm not sure why you're so hung up over whether or not its called GOTY or not, there is a long way to go yet this year. It is a great game that might not be for you and I don't see why that's a problem. I'm not into fighting games anymore but if a really good one comes out with high scores then I'm not going to begrudge it charting well on Metacritic or being discussed for GOTY.
lol mostly out of boredom and and not many other interesting game discussions happening on this forum currently. It seems every time From Software releases a game people are yelling 10/10 and GOTY before the game has even been out for 1 week. I'm always interested in checking out any game with that level of praise and while I was very impressed and understood it with Demon Souls in 2009 and even Dark Souls 1, everything since has been mostly recycled, formulaic and dated in both technical and gameplay design.
Sekiro is definitely the least recycled but OP was spot on when he said "the soul of Dark Souls games and Bloodborne is still intact here" which to me is a different way of saying this game plays like it could've been released 5-10 years ago. Not that there's anything wrong with that, especially if you find mastering this type of game rewarding, but I just find praising this so highly a bit shortsighted while other far more ambitious games and developers exist right next to it.
Deal Guru
Feb 11, 2007
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Have you completed Bloodborne or any of the Dark Souls?

Those games some of the best Boss battle encounters in any game ever made.
These are games you have to see through to completion to really get them.

Bloodborne and Dark Souls do play a lot differently in terms of combat approach.
BB and Dark Souls just have similar elements like leveling up, and fast travel points.

I think Sekiro is still the least good FromSoftware game out of the recent games they've put out.
ReeGee wrote: lol mostly out of boredom and and not many other interesting game discussions happening on this forum currently. It seems every time From Software releases a game people are yelling 10/10 and GOTY before the game has even been out for 1 week. I'm always interested in checking out any game with that level of praise and while I was very impressed and understood it with Demon Souls in 2009 and even Dark Souls 1, everything since has been mostly recycled, formulaic and dated in both technical and gameplay design.
Sekiro is definitely the least recycled but OP was spot on when he said "the soul of Dark Souls games and Bloodborne is still intact here" which to me is a different way of saying this game plays like it could've been released 5-10 years ago. Not that there's anything wrong with that, especially if you find mastering this type of game rewarding, but I just find praising this so highly a bit shortsighted while other far more ambitious games and developers exist right next to it.
Deal Fanatic
Dec 28, 2005
7805 posts
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Germany
ReeGee wrote: lol mostly out of boredom and and not many other interesting game discussions happening on this forum currently. It seems every time From Software releases a game people are yelling 10/10 and GOTY before the game has even been out for 1 week. I'm always interested in checking out any game with that level of praise and while I was very impressed and understood it with Demon Souls in 2009 and even Dark Souls 1, everything since has been mostly recycled, formulaic and dated in both technical and gameplay design.
Sekiro is definitely the least recycled but OP was spot on when he said "the soul of Dark Souls games and Bloodborne is still intact here" which to me is a different way of saying this game plays like it could've been released 5-10 years ago. Not that there's anything wrong with that, especially if you find mastering this type of game rewarding, but I just find praising this so highly a bit shortsighted while other far more ambitious games and developers exist right next to it.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree. There is nothing like this on the market in the action genre that rewards exploration, thoughtful play and has the same level design as From Software games. To assert like it could've been released 5-10 years ago tells me you have barely touched the game. You will know what I'm talking about when you reach the stealth boss encounter/puzzles, which are like a game of cat and mouse and a huge departure from the Soulsborn series. There hasn't really been anything like that since the sniper battle in Metal Gear Solid and even then it's not the same.

From also took big risks dropping the RPG elements and streamlining the game, but this is (imho) some of the most crisp combat in any action game. You can no longer grind stats to try and make encounters easier like in past games. The game demands that you learn how the various systems work and adapt. The depth and nuance in the combat system are also fantastic and change how you think about about opponents. For example, did you know that repeated parries in succession increases your posture damage on your next riposte? When I learned that, it dramatically changed how I approached fast attackers and packs. Instead of trying to parry and immediately riposte, I waited to parry the entire combo and then riposte inflicting massive posture damage. This made previously difficult fights much, much faster.

I would be hard pressed to name many AAA games other than Sekiro that have pushed the boundaries this generation. The Witcher 3 certainly blew me away and it's still on my Greatest of All Time list. God of War was a big departure from the past, but still not exactly ground breaking. It was incredibly well executed, but it was still another open world action RPG in a long list of open world action RPGs. I would add Bloodborne to this list, but it clearly wasn't your cup of tea so I won't expand on that. Monster Hunter World deserves a mention here for the incredible stuff they did with the interaction of monsters and environments. What else am I missing? DMC5? Awesome game, but very much more of the same. Red Dead Redemption 2? They built a stunningly realistic world, but most of it was tedious and cumbersome. Breath of the Wild? Phenomenal, but you could argue it's last gen since it came out on the Wii U. Maybe Hellblade for its narrative devices?

In my opinion, the most innovation is going on the indie sphere with stuff like Celeste, Return of the Obra Dinn, Dead Cells, Hollow Knight, Frostpunk, Into the Breach, etc.
Deal Fanatic
Oct 23, 2004
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Toronto
I mean I don't think anyone should need to spend more than 4-5 hours with a game like this to understand the core mechanics and have an opinion. In fact I'd actually agree with praise of the depth and nuance in the combat system and I think the combat is well executed for the most part. My entire gripe with this game and other From games being praised so highly is that outside of well executed challenging combat systems these games are behind the times and mediocre in every other aspect.

The bar for generation defining games has been raised above simply having challenging combat systems as there are other games which offer that have that in addition to excelling and evolving in areas where From games barely make any effort. God of War is a great example of this and probably the most recent and relevant comparison. The combat system and gameplay of God Of War has just as much going for it while also making a remarkable effort at presentation, world building, story telling, visual design, puzzles, level design etc, areas where I see Sekiro as being very average and outdated. At least Sekiro makes some attempt at storytelling but it's still laughable to me when held next to a game like God Of War and that's just one area of comparison.
Deal Fanatic
Dec 28, 2005
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ReeGee wrote: I mean I don't think anyone should need to spend more than 4-5 hours with a game like this to understand the core mechanics and have an opinion. In fact I'd actually agree with praise of the depth and nuance in the combat system and I think the combat is well executed for the most part. My entire gripe with this game and other From games being praised so highly is that outside of well executed challenging combat systems these games are behind the times and mediocre in every other aspect.

The bar for generation defining games has been raised above simply having challenging combat systems as there are other games which offer that have that in addition to excelling and evolving in areas where From games barely make any effort. God of War is a great example of this and probably the most recent and relevant comparison. The combat system and gameplay of God Of War has just as much going for it while also making a remarkable effort at presentation, world building, story telling, visual design, puzzles, level design etc, areas where I see Sekiro as being very average and outdated. At least Sekiro makes some attempt at storytelling but it's still laughable to me when held next to a game like God Of War and that's just one area of comparison.
From games have always had fascinating stories. They're just not told to you. If you spend time picking up items and reading the in-game lore, you will see. Bloodborne probably has one of the best stories of this generation, but you have to find it. If that's not your cup of tea, that's fine, but to asset these games are zero effort or last gen is doing them an injustice.
Deal Fanatic
Oct 23, 2004
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unshavenyak wrote: From games have always had fascinating stories. They're just not told to you. If you spend time picking up items and reading the in-game lore, you will see. Bloodborne probably has one of the best stories of this generation, but you have to find it. If that's not your cup of tea, that's fine, but to asset these games are zero effort or last gen is doing them an injustice.
I believe you that the story is fascinating if you care to read it but expecting the player to read it and delivering the story like that in a game released in 2015 is exactly the kind of dated last gen design outside of combat that I'm talking about. Not saying there's anything wrong with telling a story like that, my favorite stories are from novels hundreds of pages long, but in the context of the best games of this generation that design is falling short of many action RPGs that came before nevermind The Witcher 3 which dropped a few months later and is still the standard in that area 4 years later. To this day I'm quite honestly baffled that anyone thinks Bloodborne belongs in the same conversation as TW3 because you really have to be lowering the bar in every aspect outside of combat to think those games are comparable in quality.
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Sep 14, 2014
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Beat the game yesterday and I highly recommend it. If you've played any of the Dark souls games then you'll expect Sekiro to be also a difficult game. Yes, the game is challenging and you will have to retry boss fights multiple times. Early game I've died 50+ times to an ogre and and I had the fire prosthetic to stun him for a few seconds. The game does give you tools to make the game easier, you could sneak up to enemies to take 1 health bar or use tools such as firecracker to stun beast like enemies. The Samurai and Shinobi setting is also fascinating, you get to see Samurai era of Japan, there's a place late game filled with Sakura/cherry blossoms which is very rewarding after defeating a 3 phase boss.

I'm reading plenty of anger on the difficulty of this game and demands for easy mode. The game does give you tools to help you but you also have to apply skills such as dodging, deflecting, countering a thrust and using your prosthetic such as firecracker. Overall, this is a great challenging game, rich in Samurai and ninja setting. Sekiro is probably 1 of the best games of 2019. (haven't played Resident evil 2 remake or DMC5 yet)

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