Travel

Sunwing Issues - need advice

  • Last Updated:
  • Sep 10th, 2018 6:58 pm
Deal Addict
Jun 15, 2015
2879 posts
2271 upvotes
Toronto
tequilla wrote: >>Unfortunately, word of mouth has so far not put them entirely out of business.

Why you want them out of business? You like them... not, ok, do not fly with them.
Pay more, fly ACV. Drive SW and TS out of business -- and pay monopoly ACV 2-3 time more.

>> For those that will say that they've flown either one and never had any problems
>> or issues, count yourself as lucky. Even in Russian Roulette, sooner or later,
>> you're going to hit the "jackpot".

Sooner or later one can get a problem with AC, WJ, etc.

Yes, we can critique occasional not-perfect service, but
we pay less for this. A soon as ratio quality/price is
acceptable, the business is viable.

Cheers!
Great post.

In terms of “airlines” Air Canada is our flag carrier and the largest in terms destinations served, # of flights, fleet size etc. Air Canada Vacations and AC Rouge were created solely to compete with the likes of Transat, Sunwing who are not airlines but charters/tour operators (and other defunct carriers like Skyservice, Canada 3000). Believe it or not, the tour operator business model is more profitable then running an airline.

Sunwing isn’t going anywhere (despite people wondering how they are still in business or wondering why). They are a subsidiary of TUI (THE largest tour operator in the world): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TUI_Group
They not only own aircraft/ tour operators/ travel agencies but actually OWN resorts and are majority stakeholders in a few others big names not even listed in the link. Their contracts are unreal (due to their buying power) and they have exclusives for a lot of resorts that it’s not even worth contracting knowing your competitor will be able to sell for MUCH lower (if that tells your anything from someone who works for the “biggest” airline serving Canada). Example; Blue Diamond Hotels (Royalton / Memories / Starfish) is brought to you by the likes of Sunwing/backed by TUI. Air Canada Vacations (after 2-3 years of negotiations) now offers the competitors resorts- WHY? Because they have to just to stay competitive and relevant.

AC has a monopoly on many routes but has chosen to focus on being an airline first and foremost and that should be “frustrating” for the average Canadian wondering why Sunwing/Transat is still in business. AC has allowed the charters to eat their lunch and even offered them dinner too. Sunwing offers seasonal (direct) service from smaller airports that are served by AC/Jazz (think London, Windsor, Thunder Bay, Sault St Marie and others all over Canada). As a consumer if you are booking a winter trip down south would you rather fly from Timmins through Toronto on connections OR fly direct even with Sunwing? Now factor in (Timmins-Toronto is typically RT $200ish on a good day + the cost of the Toronto- Caribbean flight RT $500+ in high season). AC has to basically give away the seats being sold as a package to even somewhat compete with the direct flights being offered on a product they don’t even have contracts with.

Personally I would not be surprised down the line if Transat is one day also purchased by TUI. Similar things have happened in other European markets. And Transat is def the weaker link these days in terms of the tour operators/charters (Not saying they are in financial trouble or going anywhere anytime soon).

So ya long story short I will stand by statement. For a package vacation like this - pick your poison they are all the same.
Deal Addict
Jun 15, 2015
2879 posts
2271 upvotes
Toronto
tequilla wrote: In all your examples and in all my family trips (may be 8-10, mostly Cuba)
return flight was exact continuation of inbound flight.
Thus, time on Cuban soil was 7 days plus 1 hour (plane turn-over).
Another count of this: 6 full days and two "part-of-day"s
and both "part-day" sum up to 25 hours.

May be there are rules to count and guarantee only 7 nights, but
de-facto it always was 7x24+1 hours.
Is this "de-facto" observation can be base for complain on missing 10 hours?
Not sure but worth trying.

Cheers!
There’s really no rhyme or reason for it but prices are put together based on # of nights. Do they sit around and try to choose flight times based on “desirability” to a consumer. Absolutely.

When do you travel? That makes a big difference. (Early/Mid) June and especially September are typically the least expensive times of the year to travel. I would give anyone that advice if they are looking to travel to the Caribbean during that time of the year. Given what the costs are (crazy low pricing regardless of airline) you DO have to keep that in mind. From a retail perspective it’s like buying shoes from Holt Renfrew at $300 or wait a few months and buy the shoes from Holt Renfrew Outlet at $125 (do you still have the exact same expectation? Yes to an extent but finer flaws/scuffs in the shoe will be overlooked and hence priced accordingly by the retailer).

Low season will run into the highest probability of schedule changes/ cancellations / merging of flights. Do schedule changes happen in high season? Sure (especially if you are booking well advance) but this would happen more for operational reasons (ie. it’s better/cheaper to have a inbound flight from Cuba depart later from a destination and arrive into Toronto at 1-2am) and have a few hours to groom/service the flight to get it ready for 6am departure the next morning. That same aircraft the next morning due to demand may indeed make 2 “turns”: Toronto- Varadero / Varadero - Toronto (new crew arrives) then another Toronto-Varadero in the mid/late afternoon with another inbound Varadero-Toronto arriving after midnight). In low season with 1 flight per day now combined with another destination or in the case of airlines like Air Canada/Westjet offering an unpopular mid day flight allows the feeder aircraft from smaller cities to be able to make a connection).
Deal Addict
Jun 15, 2015
2879 posts
2271 upvotes
Toronto
Flex84 wrote: BrunetteGirl thank you for a detailed information!

We did buy cancelation insurance that allows me to cancel or switch so I'll probably going that direction to resolve this issue and get to the well anticipated vacation on its way.

I'm just surprised regarding how they count the "days", in my mind if I paid for 10 days (and that what they advertise how many days you want to go for) I should be getting 10 days. We not going on vacation to sleep for 10 nights but enjoy 10 days of daytime activities so when the sudden change of amount of days we will have during this vacation. It makes me think that what we paid for is not what we getting...

On the side note, insurance or not. We talking here about vacations that people buy in order to get the needed relaxation from day to day that they do and this is screwed up that those airlines can be playing with people emotions in those times.

I also don't recall in all my travels that I had experienced not one but two drastic changes to my vacation packages itinerary and to me it felt like unusual and I should be getting at least some kind of compensated for the hassle.
Do you usually travel in September? Low season tends to be most infested with schedule changes (September/October the absolute worst IMHO). Just an FYI for future reference- in contrast the prices do reflect this. Sorry to be blunt but that’s true truth.!

Yes that’s why they advertise “10 days” for a trip that you booked Sept 8-18 (which in actuality the trip you booked is 10 nights / 11 days). Although you paid to “sleep” there for 10 nights it is advertised as 10 days (10x 24 hours = 240 counted as departure time from origin and return time to origin).

You can certainly try to seek further compensation and change the dates but the problem is sked changes can STILL happen or a delay. I’ve seen occurrences where flights are “pushed up” meaning you spend longer in destination (and ppl will still complain since everyone has different plans/ commitments).

TBH your original departure @ 6:15am is loved by many but also equally hated. Assuming you live within 30 mins of YYZ you will probably have to be up at 3am. Then you arrive at your destination and could be “homeless” until check in time (3pm). Will they check you in early? Sure. But if they tell you they can’t they aren’t exactly wronging you either as that’s pretty standard. So now by check in time (3pm) you’ve officially been up for 12 hours with 2 kids in tow and are likely exhausted. Later departures (although past bedtime) is nice because the resort is quieter on an early arrival you are standing in a long line full of guests arriving/departing that day. I personally wake up much better rested arriving late to the resort and heading to my room and waking up refreshed.

Same goes for the original 1pm-ish return. Your pick is up probably 10am so even if you woke up at 7am you had 3 hours tops to “enjoy your last day” (and I’m being generous as I’m sure morning routines like eating breakfast, getting ready/showering, packing up, checking out) will eat up an hour of that.
Newbie
Apr 14, 2018
12 posts
2 upvotes
I just realized that there were lots of messages here but my phone from reason didn’t show it to me.

You guys all have valid points to what you wrote and all right!

I didn’t choose sunwing due to cheap option but it was the only available option that I could have chosen for the dates that we were able to take from our busy daily routine. Also paying over $6k for vacation of 4 (where hotel doesn't cost a penny fro the kids and the little one is not chargeable by the airline) IMO is not cheap.

I know this period is very unstable but I still expect to receive what we paid for whether we arrive late or early. I expect it not to be 12+ hours difference at my expense.

I have spoken today with the travel agent and the airline directly and nothing can be done which is quite upsetting.

We will be using our cancellation insurance to change the flight to another day to get the full vacation that we paid for, and learning our lessons for the future.

Thanks everyone for all your help
Deal Addict
Jul 17, 2009
1391 posts
498 upvotes
Just a heads up, there is a tourist card think you have to get for Dominican republic, Sunwing doesn't include the cost in their vacation package. I think it is $30 and you can register and print online.
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Dec 20, 2004
5603 posts
2005 upvotes
Toronto
Even 7 days sitting in an all-inclusive resort tends to get quite boring by the end, so 10 days (even with one being cut short) should be more than fine.

Your original flight was scheduled to leave at 6:15AM which means getting to the airport by 4:15AM, which likely means waking up at 3:15AM (or even earlier with the children). To me this sounds like hell, and I would take the later flight in a heartbeat. Sure you would have had a bit of extra time in the day, but you would have been half-asleep zombies. At least this way you can wake up and head to the airport at a leisurely pace with well-rested children, get to the hotel, settle in, and go to bed.

Point being, I would not stress much about this.
Deal Expert
User avatar
May 10, 2005
36997 posts
11419 upvotes
Ottawa
crystallight wrote: If you buy the insurance from Sunwing for $50 (or whatever it is), then shouldn't it be pretty straight forward to cancel?
On what premise? That they changed flights by a few hours?? I a pretty sure that cancellation would require more than just that.
“Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.”
Deal Addict
User avatar
Feb 14, 2009
1280 posts
518 upvotes
crystallight wrote: This is what their $50 cancellation says:
Your no-hassle, peace-of-mind Cancellation Waiver allows you to cancel up to 3 hours prior to departure for any reason, except no shows or denied boarding, or make one change prior to the outbound departure without paying a change fee. You will receive a 100 percent refund if you do cancel your trip. Some or all of your refund may be paid in Sunwing future travel vouchers, depending on when you cancel. Worry Free Cancellation Waiver does not apply once you have departed on your holiday.

So it says you can cancel for any reason. But I don't have any actual experience with it.
I was told by agent, and BrunetteGirl confirmed, that it is true
no-question-ask-3-hours-before-flight cancellation insurance
with only one downside: refund is in a Sunwing voucher (<20 days before).

Of course , true full cash refund is more expensive.

Cheers!
Deal Expert
User avatar
May 10, 2005
36997 posts
11419 upvotes
Ottawa
tequilla wrote: I was told by agent, and BrunetteGirl confirmed, that it is true
no-question-ask-3-hours-before-flight cancellation insurance
with only one downside: refund is in a Sunwing voucher (<20 days before).

Of course , true full cash refund is more expensive.

Cheers!
OK, if you are so pissed at Sunwing to cancel because changed flight times and are willing to take your refund as another Sunwing vacation voucher (where it can happen again), so be it.
Cheers :)
“Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.”
Deal Addict
Nov 8, 2017
1556 posts
894 upvotes
Book directly with the airline
Book directly with the hotel
Book directly with the train company

Never had a problem

3rd party companies won't help, and most of the time you're just saving pennies

"Penny wise and Pound foolish"
Deal Addict
Jun 15, 2015
2879 posts
2271 upvotes
Toronto
User455957 wrote: Book directly with the airline
Book directly with the hotel
Book directly with the train company

Never had a problem

3rd party companies won't help, and most of the time you're just saving pennies

"Penny wise and Pound foolish"
That is great advice for more complex trips ('FIT') that would include multicity, multi country or very specific type accommodations and booked in the short term. And it's actually what I myself choose to do on personal travels. Just like everything else in travel there is no 'blanket' answer for anything.

For the simple ITC type 'package' 'pay one price' 'Caribbean/Mexico perhaps very particular USA or Europe 'packages' (ITC) it's actually not great advice at all (as in what the OP has booked/ his situation). I am basically referring to product sold by the Canadian Tour Operators (WestJet Vacations, Air Canada Vacations, Sunwing/Signature Vacations, Transat Holidays and Sunquest/Travelbrands)

Book directly with the airline
A) $25-$30 per checked bag per direction to Caribbean/USA and some Europe destinations depending on fare class VS INCLUDED w/ ITC package
B) In the event of airline delay/cancellation/schedule change (as in OP's case airline contacted him as there was a date change) had he booked through the hotel directly he may have had to pay penalties to modify dates.

Book directly with the hotel
See point B above. If your flight is delayed (whether mechanical or act of God) that causes you to MISS/NO SHOW nights of your pre-reserved hotel stay- the hotel does not have to compensate you or give you the $ back (you would absolutely need insurance)

Most Caribbean/Mexico hotels are priced in USD and if booking in advance you cannot 'lock in' your price VS ITC packages are in CAD so exchange rates don't matter (should also note, hotels nights are contracted anywhere from 6-10 months prior so you are paying an 'old' rate.

Some all inclusive hotels in the Caribbean allow 'check in' at 3pm and 'check out' at 11am/12pm. Your 'all inclusive' starts/ends in accordance to the check in and check out times (does not apply to those booked on ITC packages and of course is hotel dependent)

Book directly with the train company
- Obviously does not apply for the simple packages I am referring to/OP's scenario. But noteworthy most packages include airport transportation whether shared or private.

Also noteworthy to mention for 3rd parties I am referring to the bigger CANADIAN Online Travel Agencies (not Expedia with their foreign soil call centres). You can certainly book through the tour operators mentioned above directly but those who take your call are 'order takers' and not trained or given you an unbiased advice (If you call WestJet Vacations directly for example with a question about a certain package they sell and ask the agent- well do you think this hotel is nicer then the 'Royalton?' They will probably tell you how fabulous their package is considering they don't have a contract with that hotel to begin with and want your business ...or give a call to Transat Holidays and ask them about the Disney Cruise package they have and ask them about the Aulani in Hawaii (they don't fly to Hawaii so how could they help you?).

Again, these 'pay one price' type of 'fly and flop' packages are very popular in Canada this is what I am referring to.
Banned
Mar 13, 2018
1385 posts
679 upvotes
BrunetteGirl wrote: Great post.

In terms of “airlines” Air Canada is our flag carrier and the largest in terms destinations served, # of flights, fleet size etc. Air Canada Vacations and AC Rouge were created solely to compete with the likes of Transat, Sunwing who are not airlines but charters/tour operators (and other defunct carriers like Skyservice, Canada 3000). Believe it or not, the tour operator business model is more profitable then running an airline.

Sunwing isn’t going anywhere (despite people wondering how they are still in business or wondering why). They are a subsidiary of TUI (THE largest tour operator in the world): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TUI_Group
They not only own aircraft/ tour operators/ travel agencies but actually OWN resorts and are majority stakeholders in a few others big names not even listed in the link. Their contracts are unreal (due to their buying power) and they have exclusives for a lot of resorts that it’s not even worth contracting knowing your competitor will be able to sell for MUCH lower (if that tells your anything from someone who works for the “biggest” airline serving Canada). Example; Blue Diamond Hotels (Royalton / Memories / Starfish) is brought to you by the likes of Sunwing/backed by TUI. Air Canada Vacations (after 2-3 years of negotiations) now offers the competitors resorts- WHY? Because they have to just to stay competitive and relevant.

AC has a monopoly on many routes but has chosen to focus on being an airline first and foremost and that should be “frustrating” for the average Canadian wondering why Sunwing/Transat is still in business. AC has allowed the charters to eat their lunch and even offered them dinner too. Sunwing offers seasonal (direct) service from smaller airports that are served by AC/Jazz (think London, Windsor, Thunder Bay, Sault St Marie and others all over Canada). As a consumer if you are booking a winter trip down south would you rather fly from Timmins through Toronto on connections OR fly direct even with Sunwing? Now factor in (Timmins-Toronto is typically RT $200ish on a good day + the cost of the Toronto- Caribbean flight RT $500+ in high season). AC has to basically give away the seats being sold as a package to even somewhat compete with the direct flights being offered on a product they don’t even have contracts with.

Personally I would not be surprised down the line if Transat is one day also purchased by TUI. Similar things have happened in other European markets. And Transat is def the weaker link these days in terms of the tour operators/charters (Not saying they are in financial trouble or going anywhere anytime soon).

So ya long story short I will stand by statement. For a package vacation like this - pick your poison they are all the same.
Meh...air Canada is doing great and chose wisely to be an airline first and able to command premium pricing for exact same vacation packages simply due to brand power

AC stock is doing great and it's because they chose to be an airline first . Their income is higher than Tui despite fraction of their revenue
Deal Addict
Feb 22, 2016
4745 posts
4409 upvotes
Pete_Coach wrote: OK, if you are so pissed at Sunwing to cancel because changed flight times and are willing to take your refund as another Sunwing vacation voucher (where it can happen again), so be it.
Cheers :)
Sounds like Sunwing "insurance" is the travel equivalent to that credit rating protection "insurance" the credit card banks all offer... a scam.
Deal Addict
Feb 22, 2016
4745 posts
4409 upvotes
BrunetteGirl wrote: In terms of “airlines” Air Canada is our flag carrier and the largest in terms destinations served, # of flights, fleet size etc. Air Canada Vacations and AC Rouge were created solely to compete with the likes of Transat, Sunwing who are not airlines but charters/tour operators (and other defunct carriers like Skyservice, Canada 3000). Believe it or not, the tour operator business model is more profitable then running an airline.

So ya long story short I will stand by statement. For a package vacation like this - pick your poison they are all the same.
OK, I appreciate your insider involvement and knowledge of the travel industry but in that first sentence you contradicted yourself. You mention defunct carriers (i.e. they went out of business and, in the case of Canada 3000, Royal, Jetsgo etc, left people stranded all over the place) but follow that up by claiming that's a more profitable business model than real airlines like Air Canada? Not counting strikes, AC has never had to shut down due to money troubles and leave passengers stranded. Neither did its previous competitor Canadian Airlines/ CP Air (which was of course swallowed up by AC). If not for its bigtime foreign backing, Sunwing would eventually be joining that list of defunct carriers...

As for your last statement, it seems the best advice is to run, don't walk, away from vacation packages (TUI especially). Don't give a boatload of money to these scammers so that they hold all the cards to mess around with you.
I'd rather fly to Europe or Asia (on a real airline) and plan my own trip, than trust several thousand bucks to TUI just so I can veg on some beach with the rest of the $heeple (eventually...) and get fed crappy food (eventually...) Life's too short to waste time on such BS.
Deal Addict
User avatar
Feb 14, 2009
1280 posts
518 upvotes
EastGTARedFlagger wrote: Sounds like Sunwing "insurance" is ...... a scam.
Wrong, it is not a scam. It is what it is. nothing more and nothing less.
100% cash return before ~40 days,
50% cash 50% voucher ~20-40 days
and 100% voucher ~20 days-3hours before flight.
For any reason. including "change of mind".
Actually the reason is not asked.

Cheers!
Deal Addict
User avatar
Feb 14, 2009
1280 posts
518 upvotes
EastGTARedFlagger wrote: ....
As for your last statement, it seems the best advice is to run, don't walk, away from vacation packages (TUI especially). Don't give a boatload of money to these scammers so that they hold all the cards to mess around with you.
I'd rather fly to Europe or Asia (on a real airline) and plan my own trip, than trust several thousand bucks to TUI just so I can veg on some beach with the rest of the $heeple (eventually...) and get fed crappy food (eventually...) Life's too short to waste time on such BS.
judgemental opinion...
using own preferences as base to insult others...
FUD...

Lets be more friendly, summer is not over,
relax and enjoy whatever float your boat

Cheers!
Deal Addict
User avatar
Dec 4, 2007
4869 posts
2743 upvotes
Quebec
So, if they change the flight date, we can cancel? I did purchase an all inclusive, but did not purchase any insurance, except for health emergency.
Deal Addict
Feb 22, 2016
4745 posts
4409 upvotes
tequilla wrote: FUD...
So all those horror stories about Sunwing and the questionable quality of Cuban AI resorts are all FUD?

Even before this thread I've seen more than enough here and elsewhere to know not to risk time and money on them.
Deal Addict
Feb 22, 2016
4745 posts
4409 upvotes
tequilla wrote: Wrong, it is not a scam. It is what it is. nothing more and nothing less.
100% cash return before ~40 days,
50% cash 50% voucher ~20-40 days
and 100% voucher ~20 days-3hours before flight.
For any reason. including "change of mind".
Actually the reason is not asked.
Cheers!
It's a scam unless it's 100% cash refund all the way to the end. Simply giving you a voucher so you can get screwed around again and Sunwing still has your money... you still lose.

This is why I call it a scam much like "credit insurance". If you get sick or laid off or (whatever else they say they'll cover) the bank only covers your min payment, and for a limited length of time. So the principal is still there and is still rising due to interest, and eventually you still have a balance to pay off. If it were a legitimate insurance policy, a claim should lead to your balance paid off and account closed.
Deal Addict
User avatar
Feb 14, 2009
1280 posts
518 upvotes
@HyperTech

It is grey area. For example Sunwing:

https://www.sunwing.ca/Pages/en/terms-and-conditions
https://www.sunwing.ca/pages/en/passeng ... commitment
( and just for completeness
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_Co ... n_261/2004 )

Brief reading tells that they can change itinerary with or without notice.
I guess several hours (even 10 hours within the same day) is not base for
full-cash-refund-cancellation from customer's side.

Change of the date, in my opinion, is base for cancellation from a customer.
Several people described here that cancellation was offered as an option
from agency side in such situation.
nevertheless, I did not found any explicitly written policy on it.

For comparison, European regulation 261/2004 explicitly stated
that a customer has the right to cancel if flight is moved
more than..... I forgot how many hours....

Cheers!

Top

Thread Information

There is currently 1 user viewing this thread. (0 members and 1 guest)