Automotive

Synthetics vs conventional

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  • Jul 19th, 2017 10:37 am
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Deal Guru
Aug 22, 2011
13564 posts
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Ottawa
amkorp wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 11:01 am

I don't think you quite understand what he's trying to say. If you take the same weight oil in conventional and synthetic formats, you'll find that the synthetic will be less viscous than the conventional. This is how synthetics help with cold starts and colder weather. The viscosity on the synthetic will be much lower than the conventional in colder temps therefore allowing it to flow easier than the conventional.

You're interchanging functional weight and viscosity in your posts. You can't do that, you've got to start with the same weight oil in which viscosity is affected by temperatures.
ottofly wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 11:14 am
Thank you. He knows exactly what I'm talking about, he's just having trouble accepting his information is totally false.
Alright, Google chemists; numbers are marginal at best!

Mobil 1 5w30 syn:
Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 11.0
Viscosity, @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 61.7

Amsoil 5w30 syn:
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 10.4
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 59.9

Pennzoil 5w30 conv:
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 10.5
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 63.4
Sr. Member
Sep 29, 2008
690 posts
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Toronto - Markham/Sc…
vkizzle wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 1:22 pm
Alright, Google chemists; numbers are marginal at best!

Mobil 1 5w30 syn:
Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 11.0
Viscosity, @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 61.7

Amsoil 5w30 syn:
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 10.4
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 59.9

Pennzoil 5w30 conv:
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 10.5
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 63.4
Again, you're the one who's the google chemist.

Do you know what the numbers mean (I don't)? Do you know if the values are linear/exponential/other (based on what I've seen in charts it looks to be exponential)?

Even if the values are marginal (exponentially this may be a greater difference than 59.9 - 63.4. I know you are good at numbers but what do the cst values really mean?), you can see that the cst values are different. This shows that synthetic performs differently in the cold than conventional.

Are you saying that the video I linked showing the same grade oils being chilled then poured is fabricated? Maybe it's video editing or special effects? Not sure I understand your point?

Marginal difference is still a difference. Videos show the real world, visible difference. It's quite drastic to be honest. You're denying those videos are correct, is it?
Deal Guru
Aug 22, 2011
13564 posts
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Ottawa
amkorp wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 2:48 pm
Again, you're the one who's the google chemist.

Do you know what the numbers mean (I don't)? Do you know if the values are linear/exponential/other (based on what I've seen in charts it looks to be exponential)?

Even if the values are marginal (exponentially this may be a greater difference than 59.9 - 63.4. I know you are good at numbers but what do the cst values really mean?), you can see that the cst values are different. This shows that synthetic performs differently in the cold than conventional.

Are you saying that the video I linked showing the same grade oils being chilled then poured is fabricated? Maybe it's video editing or special effects? Not sure I understand your point?

Marginal difference is still a difference. Videos show the real world, visible difference. It's quite drastic to be honest. You're denying those videos are correct, is it?
Oh wait, I found more from Google.

Castrol® EDGE® with SYNTEC® Power Technology
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 10.7
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 61.7

Compared to the above conventional oild from Pennzoil...pretty darn close between syn and conv.
Sr. Member
Sep 29, 2008
690 posts
329 upvotes
Toronto - Markham/Sc…
vkizzle wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 3:15 pm
Oh wait, I found more from Google.

Castrol® EDGE® with SYNTEC® Power Technology
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 10.7
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 61.7

Compared to the above conventional oild from Pennzoil...pretty darn close between syn and conv.
What do those numbers mean tho? Can you break it down for us? I have no idea.

Also, any google results for temps lower than 40C? Since we are talking about winter cold starts, temps will be much much much less than 40C.
Deal Addict
Aug 29, 2011
2287 posts
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Mississauga
Pete_Coach wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 8:16 am
mrweather may do a lot of short trips without allowing the engine to heat up or.a lot of stop and goes or even a lot of idling, which is an oil killer too.
You're pretty much bang on. My work commute is 10km each way, so the engine doesn't get good and hot regularly. That's why I like to do long distance highway runs once in a while.

Plus, I don't run the OLM down to 0%, usually changing the oil around 10% mark.
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May 10, 2005
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mrweather wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 5:41 pm
You're pretty much bang on. My work commute is 10km each way, so the engine doesn't get good and hot regularly. That's why I like to do long distance highway runs once in a while.

Plus, I don't run the OLM down to 0%, usually changing the oil around 10% mark.
The thing is, fuel dilution and condensation build up occur daily and the oil becomes acidic. An occasional long drive really does not help much.
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Deal Addict
Jun 18, 2008
4142 posts
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Montreal
vkizzle wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 3:15 pm

Oh wait, I found more from Google.

Castrol® EDGE® with SYNTEC® Power Technology
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 10.7
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 61.7

Compared to the above conventional oild from Pennzoil...pretty darn close between syn and conv.

Those numbers are @ 40C with the oil fairly warm. The typical morning in Canada is 18C and cooler throughout the year. The kinematic friction at 20c and cooler lower would even bigger difference between synthetic - conventional. You posted 'synthetic does not make winter starting easier..' and have been proven wrong with both hard manufacturer data and a visual. Instead of belting out the downvotes to people who are trying to post correct information, why not just accept you are wrong?

amkorp wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 4:20 pm
What do those numbers mean tho? Can you break it down for us? I have no idea.

Also, any google results for temps lower than 40C? Since we are talking about winter cold starts, temps will be much much much less than 40C.
This link will answer some questions as to why synthetic of the same viscosity is superior to conventional in cold conditions.
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Dec 9, 2008
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vkizzle wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 9:17 am
Go compare a 5w30 syn against a 5w20 conventional and come back with your Google knowledge!
Proves my point that viscosity is the factor and not the additives from syn.
You might achieve same result on cold starts, but oil might be too thin for your engine on long trips.
Deal Guru
Aug 22, 2011
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Ottawa
elkhaze wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 6:23 pm
You might achieve same result on cold starts, but oil might be too thin for your engine on long trips.
I would definitely not change to a lower viscosity oil for "easier" starting.
I put exactly what is recommended from the factory.
Prior to today, I have never heard drivers switch to synthetic because of viscosity, other than better protection; especially at longer intervals.
Sr. Member
Jul 14, 2002
790 posts
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vkizzle wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 9:08 pm
I would definitely not change to a lower viscosity oil for "easier" starting.
I put exactly what is recommended from the factory.
Prior to today, I have never heard drivers switch to synthetic because of viscosity, other than better protection; especially at longer intervals.
have you tried it personally? i didn't do my research on how much different it would be and probably isn't a deal breaker in extending your engine life.
but i do know that after starting my cars in over a decade of canadian winter (-20C). the switchover to synthetic shortened(5-6 to 3) the number of cranks required and also provided a much lower idle at the beginning (1600rpm vs 1200rpm).
Deal Guru
Aug 22, 2011
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dantey wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 10:13 pm
have you tried it personally? i didn't do my research on how much different it would be and probably isn't a deal breaker in extending your engine life.
but i do know that after starting my cars in over a decade of canadian winter (-20C). the switchover to synthetic shortened(5-6 to 3) the number of cranks required and also provided a much lower idle at the beginning (1600rpm vs 1200rpm).
Yes, I did and noticed absolutely nothing.
My newest vehicle that I took delivery on mid Nov came from the factory with conventional oil and after breaking it in a few thousands km (which got me into Dec), I dumped it for synthetic (which should be the only type, due to being twin turbocharged) and there was nothing significantly noticeable when starting.
Sr. Member
Feb 6, 2011
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dantey wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 10:13 pm

but i do know that after starting my cars in over a decade of canadian winter (-20C). the switchover to synthetic shortened(5-6 to 3) the number of cranks required
I experienced the same. Went from 5 20 conven to 5 20 full synthetic. Didn't believe syn would improve the cold weather starts because I was already using 5 20 conven. But it did improve as you said and I always use syn now.

The extra cost is a non issue, just skip a few drive thru burgers.
Deal Addict
Jun 18, 2008
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vkizzle wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 10:22 pm
Yes, I did and noticed absolutely nothing.
My newest vehicle that I took delivery on mid Nov came from the factory with conventional oil and after breaking it in a few thousands km (which got me into Dec), I dumped it for synthetic (which should be the only type, due to being twin turbocharged) and there was nothing significantly noticeable when starting.
You noticed no difference because your vehicle did not come from the factory with conventional, at worst it came with a semi-synthetic but probably full synthetic like all US models. No way would any manufacturer would factory fill a truck with 2 turbos and towing capacity measured in thousands of pounds with a straight conventional. You really are confused aren't you?

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Feb 11, 2007
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Solsearchin1 wrote:
Jul 16th, 2017 5:32 am
I run my synthetic about 7500-8000km before changing. I buy it when it goes on sale ( for example currently Napa has 1L Synthetic for 3.30$). So it doesn't cost significantly more then conventional. What I do like that I get with synthetic is the easier winter start ups, quieter engine and better fuel economy ( in my case I save 1-2L per 100KM on syn ). It's never black at 8000km... atleast mine isn't.
vkizzle wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 6:11 am
Synthetic oil does not make winter starting easier...it's the viscosity.
One of the big advantages of synthetic oil is that you can have a 0w40, which gives you excellent cold start protection of a 0w, but still gives you hot protection of a 40w. I don't believe a 0w40 conventional oil exists. You have to go to 5w30 or 10w40 with conventional for hot protection.
Sr. Member
Jul 14, 2002
790 posts
152 upvotes
vkizzle wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 10:22 pm
Yes, I did and noticed absolutely nothing.
My newest vehicle that I took delivery on mid Nov came from the factory with conventional oil and after breaking it in a few thousands km (which got me into Dec), I dumped it for synthetic (which should be the only type, due to being twin turbocharged) and there was nothing significantly noticeable when starting.
i think the other difference might be whether a car is outdoors or parked in a garage. it will never get cold enough to be drastically different for starts in a garage.
but when i had my car out in the cold for -30C overnight, you can definitely tell the difference.

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