Tankless Water Heater Rebate from Enbridge

[NCHC James]

ok, how about some help for us suckers, I mean consumers, in Alberta...
I'd like to know how any place can justify $1500 for install. That's robbery.
If it's a simple install, I just don't get it. Even the guy at Home Depot was saying that it's ridiculous.
What options do we have?

I had an apprentice move to AB to do installs and see a different area. I do remember him saying costs were different, but i never spent the time to see what they were. i'm not sure what they are paying there vs here, nor do i know if they pay extra's on permits.

For the right professionally trained team it is a straight forward install, especially if (like us) are installing at least one unit a day. Therefore when you see a team like that installing, it looks fairly easy and doesn't take an entire day (typically 3-5hrs depending on what is to be done). An untrained team could take 8 or more hours just for one install.

[grs7]

Looked at tankless this weekend at Home Depot: $1100 on the shelf.
Nice to have a rebate option. Thanks Op.

Plus $700. to $1000. for installation.

[brucered]

Geez, I am am absolutely amazed at how little people know about taxes!!!! If you paid income tax, you will get some back with the HRTC. It has nothing to do with whether you owe money or not. Leave the tax stuff to people that know what they are talking about. The only people that wouldn't benefit from the HRTC are people that make so little money, they don't have to pay any income tax. These people are unlikely to own a house or have money to do reno's anyways...

yeah, i talked to a tax expert (my dad does them) and it will benefit pretty much everyone. my wife and i both work, have a house, pay taxes and have kids. there is no doubt we and everyone else who pays taxes will benefit from the HRTC.

like you said, unless you don't pay taxes or don't pay much at in taxes because you don't make a lot (in that case you probably don't own a home and won't be doing any renos) it will benefit you.

[chanpangchi]

I had mine install recently by enbridge and it's free. they come and do a free inspection to see if they can install it or at what cost. The only thing they will charge me is the rental on the boiler. But keep in mind that my house is a new house. I need more hot water, and either going to get a bigger tank or tankless. decide to try the tankless.
BTW. I got the Made in Japan one Rinnai. And the plumber(private not Direct energy) that I know have check on this tankless boiler after I got it. He said it's really good. All the work they did without charging me already good enough, on top. I got a really good unit.
I did get some quote from retail store, to have a bosch installed. and out of the door is around $2800. You still have to take care if thing doesn't work.
but with Direct energy, they told me parts and labor is include if anything happen.
Since it's free installation. I take my chance to try it. And few year down the road. I decide to buy a unit instead. I will be saving on the majority of the installation base on I already have a tankless installed. And doesnt' require bigger job to replace it for regular tank one to tankless. They also ran a 1" gas piping for me instead of the standard 3/4" that was already there.

Rental cost is $33.50/mth. My old boiler rental cost was $20.99, if I up size to 60Gal $22.99/23.99 forgot which. So.. it's up around $10/mth from, if I replace with a 60gal unit.

What is your model number?

[agiga]

$2700 for a rinnai R75 is a steal.The suggested install price is about $3300 or $3500 including basic install. Due to some non-qualified installers low balling jobs to get deals, the industry is seeing cheaper pricing and many new, sloppy installs.

I am not sure where any of you can find a Rinnai R75 for $1400 retail... the Retail list price is $2400, obviously that is the list, but anyone here please show me a retail store where you can go buy one for $1400. You also have to take into consideration everything else you need...

-Venting ($187-$1000)
-Gas piping/extra gas piping (if your gas line isn't 1" or larger) $100-$700
-Gas and plumbing fittings $50
-Plumbing (copper/pex) $100-$200
-Travel Time $xxx
-Insurance $
-Licensing $
-Training
-truck maint.
-gas
-tool wear and tear
-advertising
-etc. etc. etc.

Typically on a $2799 install price we are making less than $500 for the labour. If this takes 3-5 hours depending on the house, for two guys, you get the point, not a lot of money to go around.

Yes, with anything you can find cheap pricing, and you may not feel something is worth what is being charged. Keep in mind you get what you pay for. Every Install we do is done to our best abilities and we treat every job like it could be our last, because dealing with RFD'ers if we mess up, it very well could be our last.

The Rinnai units are by far the best and most proven units on the market and they are worth every penny.

Quick search came up with this unit for $1100 US
http://www.kitchen-bath-plus.com/pro...oducts_id/3462

[bririp]

wow...really. What about the shipping, exchange rate, how about a CSA approval....

[dalman]

wow...really. What about the shipping, exchange rate, how about a CSA approval....

I am not blaming contractors to make money but maybe government who regulate should take the blame of making the price so high. This code and that code plus all the administration fees add up on the price of the unit and installation. But is it all necessary cost? Can we do something to make it lower so everyone can save planet without having to spend 3000+ on a water heater?

[agiga]

wow...really. What about the shipping, exchange rate, how about a CSA approval....

Shipping is free in the US, no idea about shipping to Canada but I'd get it shipped to a UPS store across the border and they charge $5.00 to hold the package until I pick it up. With the exchange rate at a modest 1.30 it comes to $1440. Even if you add taxes and duty you're at $1750. So we're still getting charged $1,000 + for install which is a rip off esp. considering I have a new home with a power vented tank so the retrofit is not even as big of an issue as it would be in a larger home. (That is not my assessment, but the assessment of two companies I called).

[Gryphon]

wow...really. What about the shipping, exchange rate, how about a CSA approval....

The Rinnai products have already had CSA approval.
R75 is available accross the borders.

[Gryphon]

Bririp, I have a question for a long time. I wonder if you have the answer.

I installed a Rinnai R53i for my new home in 2008 by Direct Energy. At that time, the rental is $32.6+tax, and the buyout price is $2436 tax included. In 2009, Rinnai discontinued R53i and started offering R75, there is no change on winter water flow (both ~4gal/min at 75F temp. rise). Direct Energy charges almost same for rental $33+tax. But DE raised the buyout price to $3000+tax (a 39% hike).

My friend is planning to have a R75 this year but he is reluctant because of the price difference.

Apparently DE didn't lose money when installing my R53i. But why does DE charge much more for R75 buyout when the rental is almost same? A ripoff?

Thanks.

[QUOTE=bririp;8474416]wow...really. QUOTE]

[johnsmithy]

Tankless does have the ability when putting in what is called hydronics, do not get scared of a fancey term. a boiler is a type of hydronics. what can be done to replace is using either tankless using a closed loop system with a heat exchanger, pump's etc.

the wall hung boiler allows large savings, they are 96% and modulate just like tankless, making it only uses as much fuel as required to heat. with your current boiler, rather it needs to work hard or not it is using 100% of the fuel, modulating can use 40% or maybe even less to heat your home at 96% eff instead of 70% using 100%.

if you would like, we can set up a time and i can come by and chat about these options with you. one thing you can check, there is no pressure with us and i do like to take the time to make sure you understand your options and educate what the system can do for you.

Hi James,

I hope you might have some insight into a problem I'm having. I had a wall hung modulating (but not condensing) combi-unit (one unit that is both a boiler & tankless water heater) installed last summer when I was finishing my basement. Over the last winter I've been comparing the gas consumption to the previous year when we were using a 15year old cast iron boiler (natural venting) and a mid-efficiency 50 gallon hot water tank. Other changes from the previous year was 4 additional radiators in the basement and we replaced most of the older windows with energystar ones.

I didn't expect a huge savings but I expected some (I had previous owners tell me between 15% and 40% savings). I've had the installers come in to look at this but they don't really seem to have any answers either. They told me that the modulation setting was too high and they turned this down but I haven't seen a difference.

The unit is a Baxi Luna 310 which is rated up to 86%. The house is a 1912 brick semi in Toronto about 2500sq. ft. (including newly finished basement). 16 radiators in total. Past 3 gas bills have been used between 700 and 800 cubic meters of gas (~$300/month).

It doesn't appear to be short cycling since I don't see it turning on and off frequently. The installers felt that it was right sized (although I don't think they did a heat loss calculation) and when I check the temperature of the return water, it still feels pretty hot.

Any idea what it might be?

Thanks.

[SJD]

Shipping is free in the US, no idea about shipping to Canada but I'd get it shipped to a UPS store across the border and they charge $5.00 to hold the package until I pick it up. With the exchange rate at a modest 1.30 it comes to $1440. Even if you add taxes and duty you're at $1750. So we're still getting charged $1,000 + for install which is a rip off esp. considering I have a new home with a power vented tank so the retrofit is not even as big of an issue as it would be in a larger home. (That is not my assessment, but the assessment of two companies I called).

Even cheaper here:
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewpro...ctID=453059452

Rinnai doesn't approve of internet resellers but this place warranties all the products they sell and they ship to Canada. I'd rather ship to an address over the border and bring it across myself to eliminate the custom clearance fee and ensure I'd be just paying Cdn. taxes and not further duties on top of it. Doing so, at the current exchange rate you're talking less than $1500 Cdn. There are plenty more authorized distributors selling equally good Takagi units and the Takagi warranty states that the products are covered in Canada and the States as long as installed by a qualified technician.
http://www.wamhomecenter.com/product...idproduct=5697

Personally I believe it is the Cdn. distributors who are jacking up the prices and less likely the contractors. I've been debating about going tankless or with an indirect water heater on top of my boiler to meet my high flow rate demands. I find it unbelievable that I can get a 300lb water heater shipped to me here for about half the price of what a couple of contractors have quoted me for the same unit at "their cost".

[johnsmithy]

I've had a Baxi Luna 310 combi unit for the past 8 months or so. This unit both heats the house (I have hot water radiators) and the domestic water. Since this thread is related to tankless water heaters, I'll just share my experience with that feature of this unit.

Pros:
- can actually fill the bathtub with hot water without running out; however, it takes a long time since the unit can only heat about 3 gallons per minute.
- frees up a ton of space! i was able to remove all of the mechanicals (boiler & hot water tank) and put this one little wall unit in the back of the house and free up about 100 sq. ft.
- should save on gas bills but can't say for sure

Cons:
- need to get use to the hot water taking a bit longer to get to the tap
- can't run more than a couple of taps at once (depends on the size of the unit)
- expensive up front costs (this unit costs about $8K installed, partly due to moving the location of the pipes to the back of the house)
- may not pay for itself in the lifetime of the unit (depends on how much you're saving)

[agiga]

Even cheaper here:
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewpro...ctID=453059452

Rinnai doesn't approve of internet resellers but this place warranties all the products they sell and they ship to Canada. I'd rather ship to an address over the border and bring it across myself to eliminate the custom clearance fee and ensure I'd be just paying Cdn. taxes and not further duties on top of it. Doing so, at the current exchange rate you're talking less than $1500 Cdn. There are plenty more authorized distributors selling equally good Takagi units and the Takagi warranty states that the products are covered in Canada and the States as long as installed by a qualified technician.
http://www.wamhomecenter.com/product...idproduct=5697

Personally I believe it is the Cdn. distributors who are jacking up the prices and less likely the contractors. I've been debating about going tankless or with an indirect water heater on top of my boiler to meet my high flow rate demands. I find it unbelievable that I can get a 300lb water heater shipped to me here for about half the price of what a couple of contractors have quoted me for the same unit at "their cost".

It sucks that we keep getting burned by Canadian companies trying to make a gross profit and using warranties and certifications to justify it. In fact one company told me my home insurance requires I have an electrician, a plumber, and a gas fitter all work on the install and that's why the price is so high!

Price gouging happened with cars that were cheaper in the US (though prices are starting to align a bit only because of the devaluation of the Canadian dollar) but the fact that now these water heaters are almost twice the price here is quite ridiculous. Is there not a government agency that will look into this and deal with it within a reasonable time frame?

Installers/resellers that are on this forum what do you have to say?

[agiga]

[QUOTE=Gryphon;8478552]Bririp, I have a question for a long time. I wonder if you have the answer.

I installed a Rinnai R53i for my new home in 2008 by Direct Energy. At that time, the rental is $32.6+tax, and the buyout price is $2436 tax included. In 2009, Rinnai discontinued R53i and started offering R75, there is no change on winter water flow (both ~4gal/min at 75F temp. rise). Direct Energy charges almost same for rental $33+tax. But DE raised the buyout price to $3000+tax (a 39% hike).

My friend is planning to have a R75 this year but he is reluctant because of the price difference.

Apparently DE didn't lose money when installing my R53i. But why does DE charge much more for R75 buyout when the rental is almost same? A ripoff?

Thanks.

wow...really. QUOTE]

Classic rip-off. They know everyone is charging $3,000 so why not charge the same.