Entrepreneurship & Small Business

Is there money in SEO? "Job Killing"

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  • May 2nd, 2016 1:08 am
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Nov 17, 2004
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dazz wrote: Then it becomes to the game of who is better at their SEO job. Who has bigger PBN network and whose clients pay more so you can buy more expensive links.
Just in case you didn't know. Articles on Forbes with a link cost about $1000-3000 per article. Huffington Post articles start at around $600-1200.

A lot of SEOs in North America outsource part or all of their job to other countries. India is one of them and perhaps the most popular source of outsourcing for the garbage SEOs since those folks just screw your website.
Ah, boy am I glad that we're in a niche market where none of this matters...
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Apr 7, 2016
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As someone who knows this field very well, firstly I'll suggest staying away from outsourcing. SEO is such a taboo subject already so people have no idea what they're paying for and simply hope they are getting what they pay for. SEO has evolved tremendously and there are no guarantees or tricks to get you ranking quickly. I include SEO as part of my web development and maintenance packages but do not offer it as a service by itself. Realistically it does boil down to content but it's much more than that such as responsiveness, page loading time, page structure etc. Google's main priority is to rank the most relevant and quality websites first and that alone should be considered. PM me if yo have any questions.
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nextoronto wrote: As someone who knows this field very well, firstly I'll suggest staying away from outsourcing. SEO is such a taboo subject already so people have no idea what they're paying for and simply hope they are getting what they pay for. SEO has evolved tremendously and there are no guarantees or tricks to get you ranking quickly. I include SEO as part of my web development and maintenance packages but do not offer it as a service by itself. Realistically it does boil down to content but it's much more than that such as responsiveness, page loading time, page structure etc. Google's main priority is to rank the most relevant and quality websites first and that alone should be considered. PM me if yo have any questions.
Sure, google's main priority is to rank the most relevant sites, but it doesn't do it very well. Last week I was helping a friend to get his wedding photography website from page 16(site was not optimized at all. eg his name as site title,no text) closer and now it's in the top 60. While this person is just beginning, I can understand how his 2 years old website may stay on page 4-6 for a while and that's ok.
However, google "toronto wedding photographer" and you will see how it's full of junk sites. I was surprised to see julia... in the top 5 with a slow loading flash site, no content and keyword stuffing/spamming at the bottom. Same goes for a number of others. Yet page 3-6 has a lot of great photographers, with experience, content and organic links. Just goes to show that blackhat seo works and whoever pays more can get ahead. If you search for links from those sites, some may barely have any because their SEOs are using extensive PBN networks(blackhat). I work in graphic design and deal with websites quite a bit. Haven't seen any websites on page 1 in high-competitive areas where they would get there on their own with just content. Maybe one day it will be a reality,but for now those who build links and break the laws get ahead.
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dazz wrote: Sure, google's main priority is to rank the most relevant sites, but it doesn't do it very well. Last week I was helping a friend to get his wedding photography website from page 16(site was not optimized at all. eg his name as site title,no text) closer and now it's in the top 60. While this person is just beginning, I can understand how his 2 years old website may stay on page 4-6 for a while and that's ok.
However, google "toronto wedding photographer" and you will see how it's full of junk sites. I was surprised to see julia... in the top 5 with a slow loading flash site, no content and keyword stuffing/spamming at the bottom. Same goes for a number of others. Yet page 3-6 has a lot of great photographers, with experience, content and organic links. Just goes to show that blackhat seo works and whoever pays more can get ahead. If you search for links from those sites, some may barely have any because their SEOs are using extensive PBN networks(blackhat). I work in graphic design and deal with websites quite a bit. Haven't seen any websites on page 1 in high-competitive areas where they would get there on their own with just content. Maybe one day it will be a reality,but for now those who build links and break the laws get ahead.
As someone who was looking for a wedding photographer I know how competitive that industry is. I think the guy I settled on was on page 6. SEO is a marathon and not something that can be done overnight. If you're looking for quick success then I would suggest adwords. Trust me blackhat SEO does not work. I had a site get delisted years ago and Google's updates has penalized all my sites that were using blackhat tactics. I'm not sure who you would pay to get ahead. But I agree, their algorithm is not perfect. You can also see sites rank high simply because they are big brands. But it's not about content, it's a whole mix of different factors that need to be considered. But anyone who makes any guarantees like getting you #1 on Google .. stay away!

You could actually report the keyword stuffing sites and believe they'll get penalized.
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baz5 wrote: As someone with 19 years of SEO experience, you don't know what the f*** you're talking about. Daz is pretty dead on with everything he posted (quite surprised at how accurate he is). Just because you messed up and got penalized doesn't mean everyone does.

I didn't know local SEO was this bad though, I'm partnered with someone, but probably leaving. My partner made a good point though. No one is going to link to some local mom and pop shop, so the only way to rank competitive local businesses is with black hat. And I don't really want to be a part of that. I don't want to play with people's lives like that, one day, all the sudden 20 clients get penalized. I couldn't image having to deal with the clients. Some people simply don't care though. Any BH I do now is pretty much untraceable. Too many people don't know what they are doing.

This is what google has become. Top sites using blog networks to rank.
Relax buddy, i'm sure you wouldn't have that tone if you were face to face with me. We're discussing SEO, this isn't a dick swinging competition.
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baz5 wrote: Sure I would. I can't stand when people give poor advice and misinform people. Maybe say, "I once hada site penalized for using BH, in my opinion it's not worth it." Rather than acting like it doesn't work, and that's fact. I'm sure many people would say that the majority of your links which are simply blog comments is blackhat in its own. ANd your forum links, hence why you signed up here in the first place.

I also added an edit as you were replying.

And I read in another thread you strongly recommend goaddy... really losing faith in you!
No you wouldn't. You're nothing but a keyboard jockey and you know it. You can't handle a normal discussion when someone has an opposing opinion and you have to do what you do best which is act tough in your own little way.

I don't work for Godaddy or have had a bad experience with them. So why can't I suggest them?

Chill the F out!
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nextoronto wrote: No you wouldn't. You're nothing but a keyboard jockey and you know it. You can't handle a normal discussion when someone has an opposing opinion and you have to do what you do best which is act tough in your own little way.

I don't work for Godaddy or have had a bad experience with them. So why can't I suggest them?

Chill the F out!
You won't have your next toronto seo business for long if you will have this attitude. You came here to spam. Signature links aren't allowed. No matter what the issue is, you should never publicly use the word fu%^k. That's just not professional and nobody in the right mind would use you.
IMHO, by your suggestions, you are also not that good at seo. You seem like someone who is just starting out. Apologize, delete your profile and learn to "let it go" when using your company's profile.
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nextoronto wrote: No you wouldn't. You're nothing but a keyboard jockey and you know it. You can't handle a normal discussion when someone has an opposing opinion and you have to do what you do best which is act tough in your own little way.

Chill the F out!
Sure I would. I know 10x what you know, it agrivates me when people give poor advice as if it's written in stone. That's not an opposing opinion, it's flat out wrong.
Dazz is right, who runs a business and runs around spamming and swearing at people under their company name lol.

How you've not been hit with a duplicate content penalty for this filth is beyond me:
https://nextoronto.com/web-design-wordp ... d-ontario/
https://nextoronto.com/web-design-wordp ... n-ontario/
https://nextoronto.com/web-design-wordp ... e-ontario/
https://nextoronto.com/web-design-wordp ... a-ontario/
https://nextoronto.com/web-design-wordp ... x-ontario/
https://nextoronto.com/web-design-wordp ... k-ontario/
Plus 25 more. You say black hat doesn't work but it looks like everything you do is pretty much black hat lol.
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lol. yah, seems like the guy just came here to spam. Pretended to be a white swan in order to try to get noobs who don't know anything about seo to book him, while in fact he is a rotten apple newb.
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baz5 wrote: Sure I would. I know 10x what you know, it agrivates me when people give poor advice as if it's written in stone. That's not an opposing opinion, it's flat out wrong.
Dazz is right, who runs a business and runs around spamming and swearing at people under their company name lol.

How you've not been hit with a duplicate content penalty for this filth is beyond me:
https://nextoronto.com/web-design-wordp ... d-ontario/
https://nextoronto.com/web-design-wordp ... n-ontario/
https://nextoronto.com/web-design-wordp ... e-ontario/
https://nextoronto.com/web-design-wordp ... a-ontario/
https://nextoronto.com/web-design-wordp ... x-ontario/
https://nextoronto.com/web-design-wordp ... k-ontario/
Plus 25 more. You say black hat doesn't work but it looks like everything you do is pretty much black hat lol.
LMAO.. whether you're better remains to be seen but one fact is that you're an anonymous little girl in hiding. How much of your thousands of posts did you waste trolling?

I used the word "F" .. could be F&*K, could be fudge or flamingo.. you can fill in the blanks as you choose.

Move on with your life little girl!
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Apr 21, 2016
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The best way to SEO is to do it organically. All these quick SEO scheme is not very good in terms on longevity.
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nextoronto wrote: LMAO.. whether you're better remains to be seen but one fact is that you're an anonymous little girl in hiding. How much of your thousands of posts did you waste trolling?
Well it's tough to be worse.
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WebDesignerGirl wrote: The best way to SEO is to do it organically. All these quick SEO scheme is not very good in terms on longevity.
There's no such thing as organic seo. At least not if you want to compete in high competition fields. So let's not say BS things. Organic SEO is when someone links to you on their own. Nobody is going to link organically with say keywords "best plumbers in toronto, toronto plumbers, plumbing repair in toronto".
They will either just link to your website joedoeplumber.ss or with the original company name Joe Doe Pumbing. You need proper anchors in order to rank properly.
And in reality, there aren't that many sites that want to link to plumbers(again, just an example). So organically, you are left to social media(no follow, thus questionable ranking value) and maybe 1-2 professional websites which perhaps either review plumbers or YOU pay to be there.
Sure, if you have a unique product, everyone will link and talk about you. Truth is, most of the businesses and sites are similar to others and selling the same product and competing with another 1000 sites for the same thing.

I'll go further, a shady SEO can rank a website in 1-4 months to the very top. You can't really do it organically unless you "win a lottery" be will be published, featured and reposted on blogs,magazines and other sites. It's not possible in all the fields and rarely happens.
When you complain to google about a website doing something illegal, it's not necessary they will take actions right away. I know a bunch of websites that were on first page for 3-4 years(they paid and spammed their way to the top). If they get punished by google, they can easily buy a new site, pay the same SEO and get to the top in 2-4 months and again stay there a long time. And you can still be on page 5 trying to rank "organically".
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That depends if you are in the business of SEO or a business that wish to have their site listed in the 1st page.

I'm referring to the latter. The fact of the matter is there is a lot of things you can do organically (generated from within your site, special/niche keywords, content, URL). In fact I manage a few websites that have good SEO all from site content (No external linking involved).

And... if you are in a high competitive field, you wouldn't be on a bargain shopping website asking for advice. If you have money to throw around, SEO isn't hard to do. Most small/solo companies that I work with don't. :D
dazz wrote: There's no such thing as organic seo. At least not if you want to compete in high competition fields. So let's not say BS things. Organic SEO is when someone links to you on their own. Nobody is going to link organically with say keywords "best plumbers in toronto, toronto plumbers, plumbing repair in toronto".
They will either just link to your website joedoeplumber.ss or with the original company name Joe Doe Pumbing. You need proper anchors in order to rank properly.
And in reality, there aren't that many sites that want to link to plumbers(again, just an example). So organically, you are left to social media(no follow, thus questionable ranking value) and maybe 1-2 professional websites which perhaps either review plumbers or YOU pay to be there.
Sure, if you have a unique product, everyone will link and talk about you. Truth is, most of the businesses and sites are similar to others and selling the same product and competing with another 1000 sites for the same thing.

I'll go further, a shady SEO can rank a website in 1-4 months to the very top. You can't really do it organically unless you "win a lottery" be will be published, featured and reposted on blogs,magazines and other sites. It's not possible in all the fields and rarely happens.
When you complain to google about a website doing something illegal, it's not necessary they will take actions right away. I know a bunch of websites that were on first page for 3-4 years(they paid and spammed their way to the top). If they get punished by google, they can easily buy a new site, pay the same SEO and get to the top in 2-4 months and again stay there a long time. And you can still be on page 5 trying to rank "organically".
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WebDesignerGirl wrote: That depends if you are in the business of SEO or a business that wish to have their site listed in the 1st page.

I'm referring to the latter. The fact of the matter is there is a lot of things you can do organically (generated from within your site, special/niche keywords, content, URL). In fact I manage a few websites that have good SEO all from site content (No external linking involved).

And... if you are in a high competitive field, you wouldn't be on a bargain shopping website asking for advice. If you have money to throw around, SEO isn't hard to do. Most small/solo companies that I work with don't. :D
I am talking about real seo. Optimizing titles, keywords and content is all good for low competitive fields/keywords. As with my previous example where I was helping a friend rank his wedding photography site - it is a very very competitive field with those on the first page spending big bucks to stay there and by optimizing the site, you will not get anywhere.
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I work in this industry and I can say that SEO Is in fact real but there is so much money nowadays in this industry especially with agencies and online marketing that blog networks are often part of SEO campaigns for many in the industry as part of a partnership/joint/coordinated effort. Just how it is in the internet and the world, money talks and bullshit walk...

Organic SEO is still possible but like other people have said, just much more difficult and extremely long to get results with constant competition coming out and Google changing their algorithms. Doesn't mean you shouldn't practice good SEO regardless though...
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grumps312 wrote: I work in this industry and I can say that SEO Is in fact real but there is so much money nowadays in this industry especially with agencies and online marketing that blog networks are often part of SEO campaigns for many in the industry as part of a partnership/joint/coordinated effort. Just how it is in the internet and the world, money talks and bullshit walk...

Organic SEO is still possible but like other people have said, just much more difficult and extremely long to get results with constant competition coming out and Google changing their algorithms. Doesn't mean you shouldn't practice good SEO regardless though...
There's no doubt there's big money involved with SEO but unless your company have tons of money to burn. Paying for SEO isn't something viable in a long term. It's almost the same as being a loss leader in a sense.
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WebDesignerGirl wrote: There's no doubt there's big money involved with SEO but unless your company have tons of money to burn. Paying for SEO isn't something viable in a long term. It's almost the same as being a loss leader in a sense.
That makes no sense, I don't think you understand the numbers behind these businesses. I charge a lawyer $1500 to rank him to the top of the search engines, he gets one extra client a month it pays for his cost. Same thing with pretty much any business. Do you think they don't give a ***** about their profit/loss and just say, "Let's do it for fun!". Of course you're getting a return on investment. I've seen the numbers first hand on numerous companies.
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baz5 wrote: That makes no sense, I don't think you understand the numbers behind these businesses. I charge a lawyer $1500 to rank him to the top of the search engines, he gets one extra client a month it pays for his cost. Same thing with pretty much any business. Do you think they don't give a ***** about their profit/loss and just say, "Let's do it for fun!". Of course you're getting a return on investment. I've seen the numbers first hand on numerous companies.
You are literally reading too much between he lines.

Obviously if the ROI on the SEO your client paid is greater than the cost then of course it's worth it for the client.

At the end of the day advertisement/SEO doesn't direct translate into a sale. The ROI for each company is different thus making the ROI subjective. If there is a universal ROI for SEO services, for example let say you get 2 x the sales of the SEO service you paid for as the industry benchmark. Then the worthiness of paying for SEO long-term vs short-term will be more apparent. SEO is no different than paying for radio/newspaper/television ads, it is literally a subjective thing. That is what I meant by "have tons of money to burn".
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