Automotive

Thoughts on Genesis?

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  • Sep 13th, 2019 1:04 pm
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Deal Fanatic
Nov 1, 2006
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skwigglyline wrote:
Sep 11th, 2019 10:26 am
Jimbobs....these type of posts are more reliable reviews than anything released by a mainstream source.
Did you read the Wheels article?

It seemed like a reasonable review to me. While it was generally positive about the car and the approach to sales/maintenance, it also had some criticisms of the car itself.

Discerning buyers of any product need to look at multiple sources of information and make up their own minds before making any commitment. Dismissing all motoring journalists, magazines, etc. is just plain silly.
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EP32k2 wrote:
Sep 10th, 2019 6:46 pm
Did you forget to put a /s at the end noting sarcasm? Not sure if serious? So you take all reviews as unbiased and fully credible? Wow I’m speechless.
Yes, I was serious in suggesting that not everybody is as jaded and cynical as you may be. Some journalists do a poor job, some do a very good job. Most newspapers now publish disclaimers on stuff like how/where their car tests were conducted, whether they were on paid trips, etc. Also most journalists mention that in their articles. It's up to the sesnsible buyer to figure out facts and fiction before they make their purchase.
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georgecantstandya wrote:
Sep 10th, 2019 9:54 pm
You can't be serious.

It's well documented that journalists and "Media" (across the board) have a conflict of interest in the products they review. A prime example was when Ferrari banned Chris Harris (pre Top Gear fame) from reviewing it's cars due to his single negative article (which wasn't even that negative). https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-ne ... -ferraris/

Do you think fashion houses and the like will continue to send "product reviewers" their new offerings if said reviewers are going to be critical?



Don't get me started on Financial "Analysts".
Well documented? I don't think so.

That is not a "prime example" of anything I mentioned. Ferrari have every right to decide who reviews their cars and who doesn't. It doesn't mean that every reviewer who actually got to do a test is biased in favour of Ferrari.
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Jan 15, 2006
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Jimbobs wrote:
Sep 11th, 2019 12:41 pm
Yes, I was serious in suggesting that not everybody is as jaded and cynical as you may be. Some journalists do a poor job, some do a very good job. Most newspapers now publish disclaimers on stuff like how/where their car tests were conducted, whether they were on paid trips, etc. Also most journalists mention that in their articles. It's up to the sesnsible buyer to figure out facts and fiction before they make their purchase.
It’s also a known fact that majority of these reviews are biased. Always has been and always will be.
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Aug 19, 2011
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I was curious about the depreciation and was thinking it should surely be worse than a BMW 330xi (49k MSRP so very close to the G70) and surprisingly it was slightly better or about the same based on Black Book values.

That’s actually not bad for a brand new mark.
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Sep 23, 2009
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Jimbobs wrote:
Sep 9th, 2019 7:53 pm
Apparently, it's the only car you can buy online in Canada without ever having to visit a dealer or a showroom. Everything from test drive to pricing to (after you've bought it!) maintenance arranged through a website. Plus it's very highly spec'ed and looks good as well.
What about Tesla? Only difference is that Tesla's maintenance is made through the app and you schedule yourself.
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Mar 23, 2004
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X24Secret wrote:
Sep 11th, 2019 1:12 pm
That’s actually not bad for a brand new mark.
Though it's not really "brand new" per se as it's Hyundai and there were previous Genesis cars (sedan and coupe) to establish them. No different than when Acura or Lexus started over here in the late 80s. As a side note Acura has never existed in Japan (only Honda) while Toyota took some 20 years or so to introduce the Lexus brand in its homeland; Genesis OTOH was introduced in Korea around the same time as here.
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skwigglyline wrote:
Sep 10th, 2019 2:03 am
Yes...I'm sure it was quite po$$$itive..
I didn't want to comment on the G90 as the OP wasn't referencing that but now will given the references on this thread.

The G90 is a joke of a car, and as someone who has owned multiple flagship cars from the Germans and seriously thought about the G90, here are the concerns of mine which most reviewers will not get to as they generally only look at the lipstick on the pigs:

1) The reliability of the G90 (previous gen as the facelifted model just came out) was seriously questionable. There weren't any major issues per se but it was clearly a case of 'you got what you paid for'. The car is, I would say, 70-80% of a flagship German car at a bit of a discount (I'll touch on this next), but there is no 'explaining away' of the fact that it lacks some features that are a must have in any flagship car. Massage seats, for one, are not available on the G90. Air suspension, also, is not available on the G90. Features aside, the reliability of the interior is apparent after year 1 of ownership. The Genesis G90 owner forums mention a lot of these annoyances, even basic things like excessive wind noise/whistling due to a poor sealing window in the front. (+ rattles, drivetrain growls etc)

2) The biggest joke of the G90 is their lack of any serious incentives and their insane belief that one cannot negotiate the price. With the latter, I get what they are doing, but with the German 3, there is not only 7-9% of margin to work with (before dealer holdback), but there are substantial discounts for those of us who are members of the Ontario Bar Association, or the Medical Association, or for those with an executive car allowance. The German 3 are giving away their cars at dealer invoice cost if one RFDs (e.g. haggles enough) because no one buys these things anymore.

So when I was buying my 2019 A8L, an almost fully loaded A8L was only a few thousand $ more than a Genesis G90 5.0T (after the discounts I qualified for). Seriously? If you're going to try and sell me 80% of a flagship then it better be at 80% of the cost, or less. I don't know why anyone would buy a G90 when the cost is so similar to the German 3. Take the 2019 S classes now. $15K off of MSRP for anyone, before a $2K executive car allowance discount and whatever is on presently for those with membership to the Bar, etc.

The Genesis is a joke of a car brand to me. They are so close, and yet their insistence on selling at MSRP with no sort of real discounts for the typical buyers of these cars and their poor fit/finish means I won't be buying one. They've cornered themselves into a very small market when they could seriously be eating away at market share from the Germans. Don't get me wrong, Lexus doesn't offer any manufacturer incentive either, but their margins on the LS500 is something close to 13% or higher, which is 100% negotiable. Unfortunately their flagship is a terrible car for me as it's tailored towards young kids who can't afford them, so even though several Lexus dealers tried to give away their LS500s to me below cost, I still didn't buy it. Anyways, neither here nor there but clearly the G90 has touched a nerve. ;)
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
Sr. Member
Feb 10, 2006
685 posts
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Winnipeg
angryaudifanatic wrote:
Sep 11th, 2019 7:26 pm
I didn't want to comment on the G90 as the OP wasn't referencing that but now will given the references on this thread.

The G90 is a joke of a car, and as someone who has owned multiple flagship cars from the Germans and seriously thought about the G90, here are the concerns of mine which most reviewers will not get to as they generally only look at the lipstick on the pigs:

1) The reliability of the G90 (previous gen as the facelifted model just came out) was seriously questionable. There weren't any major issues per se but it was clearly a case of 'you got what you paid for'. The car is, I would say, 70-80% of a flagship German car at a bit of a discount (I'll touch on this next), but there is no 'explaining away' of the fact that it lacks some features that are a must have in any flagship car. Massage seats, for one, are not available on the G90. Air suspension, also, is not available on the G90. Features aside, the reliability of the interior is apparent after year 1 of ownership. The Genesis G90 owner forums mention a lot of these annoyances, even basic things like excessive wind noise/whistling due to a poor sealing window in the front. (+ rattles, drivetrain growls etc)

2) The biggest joke of the G90 is their lack of any serious incentives and their insane belief that one cannot negotiate the price. With the latter, I get what they are doing, but with the German 3, there is not only 7-9% of margin to work with (before dealer holdback), but there are substantial discounts for those of us who are members of the Ontario Bar Association, or the Medical Association, or for those with an executive car allowance. The German 3 are giving away their cars at dealer invoice cost if one RFDs (e.g. haggles enough) because no one buys these things anymore.

So when I was buying my 2019 A8L, an almost fully loaded A8L was only a few thousand $ more than a Genesis G90 5.0T (after the discounts I qualified for). Seriously? If you're going to try and sell me 80% of a flagship then it better be at 80% of the cost, or less. I don't know why anyone would buy a G90 when the cost is so similar to the German 3. Take the 2019 S classes now. $15K off of MSRP for anyone, before a $2K executive car allowance discount and whatever is on presently for those with membership to the Bar, etc.

The Genesis is a joke of a car brand to me. They are so close, and yet their insistence on selling at MSRP with no sort of real discounts for the typical buyers of these cars and their poor fit/finish means I won't be buying one. They've cornered themselves into a very small market when they could seriously be eating away at market share from the Germans. Don't get me wrong, Lexus doesn't offer any manufacturer incentive either, but their margins on the LS500 is something close to 13% or higher, which is 100% negotiable. Unfortunately their flagship is a terrible car for me as it's tailored towards young kids who can't afford them, so even though several Lexus dealers tried to give away their LS500s to me below cost, I still didn't buy it. Anyways, neither here nor there but clearly the G90 has touched a nerve. ;)
Just curious about a few of your things:

1) Where did you find a 5.0T Genesis G90?
2) Genesis has been steadily at the top of the reliability charts the past few years.
3) Massage seats are part of a $3250 option package on the A8L.
4) Air suspension, while nice to have while brand new, is the single most expensive and common mechanical failure point on these cars. So not having it isn't exactly a bad thing. If you can afford to deal with that, awesome, but people shopping for something 20% less are looking at that for a reason.
5) The Audi A8L base model starts at $97,800, which doesn't include the $2.095 freight fee, so really $99,895 compared to the G90 at $89,750. The Genesis comes loaded and with 5 years of maintenance included, the Audi you can load up with option to over $120,000. And that's the 2020 model Genesis, if you went with the 2019 and chose the turbo V6 to be similar to the Audi, there's another few thousand in price difference.
6) The Genesis brand isn't set to move enough units yet to even warrant incentives. They're trying to establish a brand, and they're moving less than 2000 units annually in Canada/US combined. We may see that change in a few years, as they have plans to scale up and they're introducing 3 crossover/SUV models in that time. Audi sold more units in August alone than Genesis is projected to do all year.
7) Nothing about the G90 is tailored to young kids in the least. What the G90 is designed to do is take buyers primarily that are used to spending 70-80K and showing them they can get 90% of a German flagship for just a bit more. The G70 is the moel aimed at younger buyers, and it's got the 3 series fully in it's cross-hairs.

You're free to like any vehicle you like of course, an the Audi is a great car, but perhaps, let's stick to actual facts.
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ashhabib wrote:
Sep 11th, 2019 9:30 pm
Just curious about a few of your things:

1) Where did you find a 5.0T Genesis G90?
2) Genesis has been steadily at the top of the reliability charts the past few years.
3) Massage seats are part of a $3250 option package on the A8L.
4) Air suspension, while nice to have while brand new, is the single most expensive and common mechanical failure point on these cars. So not having it isn't exactly a bad thing. If you can afford to deal with that, awesome, but people shopping for something 20% less are looking at that for a reason.
5) The Audi A8L base model starts at $97,800, which doesn't include the $2.095 freight fee, so really $99,895 compared to the G90 at $89,750. The Genesis comes loaded and with 5 years of maintenance included, the Audi you can load up with option to over $120,000. And that's the 2020 model Genesis, if you went with the 2019 and chose the turbo V6 to be similar to the Audi, there's another few thousand in price difference.
6) The Genesis brand isn't set to move enough units yet to even warrant incentives. They're trying to establish a brand, and they're moving less than 2000 units annually in Canada/US combined. We may see that change in a few years, as they have plans to scale up and they're introducing 3 crossover/SUV models in that time. Audi sold more units in August alone than Genesis is projected to do all year.
7) Nothing about the G90 is tailored to young kids in the least. What the G90 is designed to do is take buyers primarily that are used to spending 70-80K and showing them they can get 90% of a German flagship for just a bit more. The G70 is the moel aimed at younger buyers, and it's got the 3 series fully in it's cross-hairs.

You're free to like any vehicle you like of course, an the Audi is a great car, but perhaps, let's stick to actual facts.
1) Genesis G90 5.0L. I forgot the 5.0Lis unchanged and remains naturally aspirated, or antiquated hence its woeful fuel mileage.
2) Sure, the charts indicate that however reliability issues are prevalent in all Genesis G90 forums I have read.
3) And? As a member of the Ontario Bar Association, I get an easy $3K off of the A8L which nullifies that package.
4) Why are you talking about reliability for the air suspension? On Audi models, The D4/D3 A8 to be precise, air suspension rarely fails until after the 6-8 year mark. Nonetheless, you're talking about a flagship car here and air suspension these days, for BMW/Audi/MB rarely fail anymore.
5) All Audi C+D segment cars, which includes the D5 A8 also has a 5 year 80,000km all in maintenance package included. You also can't compare a turbo V6 A8 to a V8 Genesis G90 because the former is equipped with a 48V MHEV system that pumps out up to 60NM of torque for up to 5 seconds using the BSG.
6) Yes, I agree, however it is hard to establish a brand if no one buys the car.
7) Read my post again. I made 0 comments about the G90 being tailored towards a younger buyer - I was referring to the Lexus LS500 which is clearly trying to go after a group of the population which can't afford it, which is why they're still trying to sell 2018 LS500s.

Again - the point of my post isn't that a G90 is more or less superior than an A8/S class/7 series. My point is that it's 80% of the car for near 100% of the price. That makes zero sense when it comes to the alleged USP of the G90. -unless, well, one is a retiree which doesn't qualify for any of the typical incentives that is found for all of the German 3 brands for their flagship cars.
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
Sr. Member
Feb 10, 2006
685 posts
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Winnipeg
angryaudifanatic wrote:
Sep 11th, 2019 9:57 pm
1) Genesis G90 5.0L.
2) Sure, the charts indicate that however reliability issues are prevalent in all Genesis G90 forums I have read.
3) And? As a member of the Ontario Bar Association, I get an easy $3K off of the A8L which nullifies that package.
4) Why are you talking about reliability for the air suspension? On Audi models, The D4/D3 A8 to be precise, air suspension rarely fails until after the 6-8 year mark. Nonetheless, you're talking about a flagship car here and air suspension these days, for BMW/Audi/MB rarely fail anymore.
5) All Audi C+D segment cars, which includes the D5 A8 also has a 5 year 80,000km all in maintenance package included. You also can't compare a turbo V6 A8 to a V8 Genesis G90 because the former is equipped with a 48V MHEV system that pumps out up to 60NM of torque for up to 5 seconds using the BSG.
6) Yes, I agree, however it is hard to establish a brand if no one buys the car.
7) Read my post again. I made 0 comments about the G90 being tailored towards a younger buyer - I was referring to the Lexus LS500 which is clearly trying to go after a group of the population which can't afford it, which is why they're still trying to sell 2018 LS500s.

Again - the point of my post isn't that a G90 is more or less superior than an A8/S class/7 series. My point is that it's 80% of the car for near 100% of the price. That makes zero sense when it comes to the alleged USP of the G90. -unless, well, one is a retiree which doesn't qualify for any of the typical incentives that is found for all of the German 3 brands for their flagship cars.
1) Cool, just checking, LOL
2) That's a huge confirmation bias. No one goes on to an owners form to say "Hey guys, everything's cool, just checkin in".
3) I was using it as an example to highlight the price difference. It's 13K if you only selected that package. If you're optioning up, the price difference is north of 30K.
4) Because there's 2 main types of buyers in this segment, and they're opposites. Either the 3/4 year lessee that continually gets a new one, or the buyers that go 10+ years of ownership. And air suspension failure rates are a lot more frequent than you'd like to believe. If under warranty, sure it's covered, if not, anywhere from 3-15K depending on the nature of the failure.
5) The EV system is great for a quick power kick, but in it's current form, adds a lot of unnecessarily complexity for a minimal gain.
6) Personally, I think they should have launched a full size SUV first, and gone after the Escalade/Navigator.
7) I misapplied your comments about the LS500 to the G90. Although, I do know why the LS500 isn't selling. It's because they put it into a corner. Lexus needs to decide if they want to build a sports car or a luxury car. Even Mercedes, who nailed it with the S Class Coupe can't move them, and they have a version for every taste, and a well executed one at that.

Lastly, I understand your point, but the facts still stand. Equipping an A8 like a G90 results in a car that's easily 20+K more expensive, usually closer to 30K more. The G90 is 90% of the A8, but it's 75-80% of the price, and that's where they're trying to build their model. Also, you have to admit, there's a bit of bias when you made your forum handle "angryaudifanatic", LOL.
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ashhabib wrote:
Sep 11th, 2019 10:18 pm
1) Cool, just checking, LOL
2) That's a huge confirmation bias. No one goes on to an owners form to say "Hey guys, everything's cool, just checkin in".
3) I was using it as an example to highlight the price difference. It's 13K if you only selected that package. If you're optioning up, the price difference is north of 30K.
4) Because there's 2 main types of buyers in this segment, and they're opposites. Either the 3/4 year lessee that continually gets a new one, or the buyers that go 10+ years of ownership. And air suspension failure rates are a lot more frequent than you'd like to believe. If under warranty, sure it's covered, if not, anywhere from 3-15K depending on the nature of the failure.
5) The EV system is great for a quick power kick, but in it's current form, adds a lot of unnecessarily complexity for a minimal gain.
6) Personally, I think they should have launched a full size SUV first, and gone after the Escalade/Navigator.
7) I misapplied your comments about the LS500 to the G90. Although, I do know why the LS500 isn't selling. It's because they put it into a corner. Lexus needs to decide if they want to build a sports car or a luxury car. Even Mercedes, who nailed it with the S Class Coupe can't move them, and they have a version for every taste, and a well executed one at that.

Lastly, I understand your point, but the facts still stand. Equipping an A8 like a G90 results in a car that's easily 20+K more expensive, usually closer to 30K more. The G90 is 90% of the A8, but it's 75-80% of the price, and that's where they're trying to build their model. Also, you have to admit, there's a bit of bias when you made your forum handle "angryaudifanatic", LOL.
I should be clear here. Unlike most people on a forum, I'm not a guy, and I'm also not someone who likes going on forums to critique others for their car choices. The thing about cars is that there are so many to fit so many different types of buyers. There is no one definite model that fits all! (also, anyone owning these cars past the warranty period would buy extended warranty (I am one of them))

My point was that yes there is a price difference between the G90 and the A8L, or the S class, or the 7 series, but between the manufacturer incentives and the margin, it's really a toss up depending on what incentives one is eligible for.

Let's try and keep things sort of on topic, shall we?

One can buy a G90 (2020) for $90K (if my memory serves me correctly). A S450 currently can be had for $15,000 off of MSRP (factory incentive), and minus the 9% margin....so $108,000 MSRP minus both, and we're at $83,280. Yes, the G90 is 'loaded' in some ways and my $108K MSRP is for the base model. I think anyone looking at the numbers here is probably scratching their head - and that was all I was trying to say. After all of the incentives that I qualify for (Bar Association + executive car allowance), the S class is even more attractive.

That's what I don't get about the G90. They demanded that I pay MSRP...so I didn't buy one or entertain one. It's just baffling to me their approach to this whole thing.
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Feb 9, 2006
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angryaudifanatic wrote:
Sep 11th, 2019 10:28 pm
I should be clear here. Unlike most people on a forum, I'm not a guy, and I'm also not someone who likes going on forums to critique others for their car choices. The thing about cars is that there are so many to fit so many different types of buyers. There is no one definite model that fits all! (also, anyone owning these cars past the warranty period would buy extended warranty (I am one of them))

My point was that yes there is a price difference between the G90 and the A8L, or the S class, or the 7 series, but between the manufacturer incentives and the margin, it's really a toss up depending on what incentives one is eligible for.

Let's try and keep things sort of on topic, shall we?

One can buy a G90 (2020) for $90K (if my memory serves me correctly). A S450 currently can be had for $15,000 off of MSRP (factory incentive), and minus the 9% margin....so $108,000 MSRP minus both, and we're at $83,280. Yes, the G90 is 'loaded' in some ways and my $108K MSRP is for the base model. I think anyone looking at the numbers here is probably scratching their head - and that was all I was trying to say. After all of the incentives that I qualify for (Bar Association + executive car allowance), the S class is even more attractive.

That's what I don't get about the G90. They demanded that I pay MSRP...so I didn't buy one or entertain one. It's just baffling to me their approach to this whole thing.
Except you can still negotiate down from MSRP for a Genesis. It's a marketing illusion like the whole Toyota Scion or Saturn one price thing. They will play ball.

But as mentioned the Genesis starts at a lower price point so even if you take the same percentage off the absolute dollar off will obviously be higher with a higher price German. So you'll feel like you got a larger discount but you're still paying more for an equivalent German. And face it the G90 will be more reliable than the 7 series or S class. In the same way the LS has been. Both because the 7 series and S class is where they push engineering and technology that eventually trickles down to the entry level cars. Also in that the G90 is like the LS where they are and have stuck with more proven solutions and don't push the tech and engineering as far.

Also you had me with most of the points but then you started to show some kind of German superiority Bias when you said the LS500 targeted kids with no money.
That's not the case at all. The LS (Lexus as a whole IMO)is trying to pull a caddy here target the middle aged group and convey the message that "yeh we're cool and hip". Shaking off the the LS Imagine as a limo or an old man mobile.
No one under 40 considers the LS. So it ain't targeting kids. The whole F sport BS does annoy me to no end.
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tebore wrote:
Sep 11th, 2019 10:46 pm
Except you can still negotiate down from MSRP for a Genesis. It's a marketing illusion like the whole Toyota Scion or Saturn one price thing. They will play ball.

But as mentioned the Genesis starts at a lower price point so even if you take the same percentage off the absolute dollar off will obviously be higher with a higher price German. So you'll feel like you got a larger discount but you're still paying more for an equivalent German. And face it the G90 will be more reliable than the 7 series or S class. In the same way the LS has been. Both because the 7 series and S class is where they push engineering and technology that eventually trickles down to the entry level cars. Also in that the G90 is like the LS where they are and have stuck with more proven solutions and don't push the tech and engineering as far.
I have had 0 success with negotiating a Genesis G90 from the MSRP selling price. They have been a bit flexible with offering me more than the trade in amount but that's it. Maybe it's just how they approach women buying this car but I won't play this card. So all I will say is that they have held firm on the selling price.
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
Sr. Member
Feb 10, 2006
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Winnipeg
angryaudifanatic wrote:
Sep 11th, 2019 10:28 pm
I should be clear here. Unlike most people on a forum, I'm not a guy, and I'm also not someone who likes going on forums to critique others for their car choices. The thing about cars is that there are so many to fit so many different types of buyers. There is no one definite model that fits all! (also, anyone owning these cars past the warranty period would buy extended warranty (I am one of them))

My point was that yes there is a price difference between the G90 and the A8L, or the S class, or the 7 series, but between the manufacturer incentives and the margin, it's really a toss up depending on what incentives one is eligible for.

Let's try and keep things sort of on topic, shall we?

One can buy a G90 (2020) for $90K (if my memory serves me correctly). A S450 currently can be had for $15,000 off of MSRP (factory incentive), and minus the 9% margin....so $108,000 MSRP minus both, and we're at $83,280. Yes, the G90 is 'loaded' in some ways and my $108K MSRP is for the base model. I think anyone looking at the numbers here is probably scratching their head - and that was all I was trying to say. After all of the incentives that I qualify for (Bar Association + executive car allowance), the S class is even more attractive.

That's what I don't get about the G90. They demanded that I pay MSRP...so I didn't buy one or entertain one. It's just baffling to me their approach to this whole thing.
OK, not sure why whether being a guy or girl would have anything to do with it, but lets move beyond that.

Specifically, you were comparing the Audi A8 vs the G90. So that's what I was comparing. With the S Class, it's a bit of a different ballgame because they don't usually have the incentives they do right now. The reason for that is because the current S Class is coming to the end of it's lifecycle. So, when a new one comes out in the next 12-18 months, that would normally be a massive drop in value for the current model. The idea is to move as much of them as possible to minimize the overlap. Also, until thew end of lifecycle, dealers aren't just handing 9% off MSRP plus the incentives.

The no haggle model is an interesting one for sure, and oddly in the car industry, it's resulted in 2 very different outcomes. Before Genesis, there were only 2 volume brands that really adhered to this model: Saturn & Porsche. Saturn should have been revolutionary, but sadly GM mismanaged it into an early grave. Some of these brands really underestimate how much dealer experience resonates with customers. Porsche, on the other hand, has thrived. If you're buying a brand new Porsche, there's very minimal, if any discounts available. Yet Porsche's sales volume has been steadily growing, and they make more per vehicle than any other mainstream brand.

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