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Deal Guru
Jan 7, 2002
11142 posts
3769 upvotes
Waterloo, ON
Hindenburg1 wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 8:37 am
I don't understand why tip levels have been rising so much then.
Clever marketing (shaming) by restaurateurs to shift responsibility for paying their staff from them to the general public.

At one time a reasonable tip was just 10%, usually paid in cash, and went entirely to the server. They gradually increased the "standard" tip to 12%, 15%, 18%, 20%, etc. on the pretext of using the revenue to split tips among all their staff. They also started adding mandatory tips of as much as 20% for groups, then hoped ignorant people would tip on top of that.

Restaurant critics and others dependent on the industry fed into this by also shaming those who left less than 15% (and now even 20%) in tips.

Tipping also got inflated by technology where credit card terminals now offer 15%, 20% or 25% tips, usually on the tax-included amount.

Now with the increase in minimum wage, menu prices will go up so the public pays more for the meal, then even more in tips since the percentage is based on the price of the food/drink. So if menu prices go up by 10% and you continue to tip 20%, you'll be paying an effective tip of 22% on the pre wage increase cost of the meal.

And on and on and on it goes...
veni, vidi, Visa
Deal Addict
Feb 7, 2017
2764 posts
1372 upvotes
Hindenburg1 wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 8:37 am
Ok, that must be the US then. I must have got it confused. I don't understand why tip levels have been rising so much then.
Ya Canada is not perfect, but a lot better than the USA in this regard
Our country is trying to move towards a Living Wage (vs Minimum Wage per se)
The idea is endorsed by our Federal Government to raise people here above poverty
The recommended Living Wage is $ 15 per hour by 2020
About 10% of Canadians live below the Poverty Line
Most of them women & children
They are the working poor who make Minimum Wage or less
Have few to no benefits, and very little job security

In the USA they are pushing a 15% Poverty Rate
And there are still some US States (Deep South) Where there IS NO MINIMUM WAGE
Employers can pay whatever they want
Some servers there make $ 2 or $ 3 an hour
The US Federal Govt (Obama) brought in a FEDERAL Law to amend this
With a Federal Minimum Wage Guarantee (around $ 7)

But just like here in Canada, the minimum wage is not set Federally (there State / here Province or Territory)
So the offending US States just ignored the Bill
They are... Alabama - Louisiana - Mississippi - South Carolina - and Tennessee
Member
Mar 17, 2016
417 posts
305 upvotes
bylo wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 8:48 am
Clever marketing (shaming) by restaurateurs to shift responsibility for paying their staff from them to the general public.

At one time a reasonable tip was just 10%, usually paid in cash, and went entirely to the server. They gradually increased the "standard" tip to 12%, 15%, 18%, 20%, etc. on the pretext of using the revenue to split tips among all their staff. They also started adding mandatory tips of as much as 20% for groups, then hoped ignorant people would tip on top of that.

Restaurant critics and others dependent on the industry fed into this by also shaming those who left less than 15% (and now even 20%) in tips.

Tipping also got inflated by technology where credit card terminals now offer 15%, 20% or 25% tips, usually on the tax-included amount.

Now with the increase in minimum wage, menu prices will go up so the public pays more for the meal, then even more in tips since the percentage is based on the price of the food/drink. So if menu prices go up by 10% and you continue to tip 20%, you'll be paying an effective tip of 22% on the pre wage increase cost of the meal.

And on and on and on it goes...
Yep, it's seriously getting out of hand. There are tip prompts everywhere these days - take out spots, fast food, oil change etc. That and staying healthy are two biggest reasons I've started to eat out much much less.

I do have a five person anniversary event coming up next week at a steakhouse. I'm paying for all 5 and seeing 13% tax + 15-20% tip slapped on top won't be fun at all.
Member
Nov 2, 2015
213 posts
41 upvotes
Markham
tk1000 wrote:
Jan 8th, 2018 9:26 am
Waiters are paid the general minimum wage ($14 per hour)
Liquor servers wage increased from $10.10 per hour to $12.20 per hour.

Read https://www.ontario.ca/page/minimum-wage-increase
Do I still ever need to pay tip if they are earning $14/hour now?

it is kinda unfair if they earn $14 and tip is still needed. I don't see why
Deal Guru
Jan 7, 2002
11142 posts
3769 upvotes
Waterloo, ON
a16107 wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 12:07 pm
Do I still ever need to pay tip if they are earning $14/hour now?

it is kinda unfair if they earn $14 and tip is still needed. I don't see why
To be clear, I don't like tipping and think it should be abolished.

That said, the solution isn't to take it out on the servers. If we stopped tipping them, then even with the increase in minimum wage, their net pay would be no higher than it was before--maybe lower. That's not progress nor is it fair for the reasons PointsHubby made upthread.

So unfortunately, since tipping is what it is in North America, I'll continue to tip as I have before. And I'll continue to make my objections known to restaurant managers, politicians and anyone else who will listen.
veni, vidi, Visa
Member
Nov 2, 2015
213 posts
41 upvotes
Markham
bylo wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 12:37 pm
To be clear, I don't like tipping and think it should be abolished.

That said, the solution isn't to take it out on the servers. If we stopped tipping them, then even with the increase in minimum wage, their net pay would be no higher than it was before--maybe lower. That's not progress nor is it fair for the reasons PointsHubby made upthread.

So unfortunately, since tipping is what it is in North America, I'll continue to tip as I have before. And I'll continue to make my objections known to restaurant managers, politicians and anyone else who will listen.
Yes please...hoping the no tip day will come

I will continue to tip but I hate it ~
Deal Addict
User avatar
Mar 28, 2005
3206 posts
222 upvotes
Ontario / Quebec
bylo wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 12:37 pm

So unfortunately, since tipping is what it is in North America, I'll continue to tip as I have before. And I'll continue to make my objections known to restaurant managers, politicians and anyone else who will listen.
So how do you think that is going to help?

Do you expect politicians to outlaw tipping?

If I remember right, there was a restaurant out west, maybe more than one, where tipping was abolished for a while but that turned out to be a big flop.

PS: I don't like tipping either, maybe restaurants should try what they do in Europe - add a 12 or 15% service fee.
Deal Guru
Jan 7, 2002
11142 posts
3769 upvotes
Waterloo, ON
krs wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 2:41 pm
So how do you think that is going to help?
So what do you propose that would be more effective?
Do you expect politicians to outlaw tipping?
I don't "expect" it. But at least it's one solution. Again, what are the alternatives?
maybe restaurants should try what they do in Europe - add a 12 or 15% service fee
That practice has always struck me as odd. In any case, it's no longer as prevalent as it used to be, at least in some countries. It's now become rare to see "Service included" on menus and bills/receipts. Today it seems most European restaurants just pay everyone as they would pay staff in any other business. (Most people still tip a nominal amount anyway, e.g. by rounding to the nearest Euro or five. But that's more of a courtesy or expression of thanks rather than an expectation, or something that wait staff have to depend on in order to pay their own bills.)

Grocery stores don't add a "service fee" to supplement what they pay cashiers and stockers. Neither do any other types of businesses. Why should restaurants be any different?
veni, vidi, Visa
Sr. Member
Jan 31, 2007
674 posts
360 upvotes
Richmond Hill
I will continue to pay 10% after tax amount on regular basis.
If the service is really good, I pay 15% after tax.

Min wage had gone up, and we don't have the same system as US, so why would I follow their %.

Plus, No tip for fast food, period.
Deal Addict
Feb 7, 2017
2764 posts
1372 upvotes
bylo wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 3:08 pm
So what do you propose that would be more effective?

I don't "expect" it. But at least it's one solution. Again, what are the alternatives?

That practice has always struck me as odd. In any case, it's no longer as prevalent as it used to be, at least in some countries. It's now become rare to see "Service included" on menus and bills/receipts.

Today it seems most European restaurants just pay everyone as they would pay staff in any other business. (Most people still tip a nominal amount anyway, e.g. by rounding to the nearest Euro or five. But that's more of a courtesy or expression of thanks rather than an expectation, or something that wait staff have to depend on in order to pay their own bills.)

Grocery stores don't add a "service fee" to supplement what they pay cashiers and stockers. Neither do any other types of businesses. Why should restaurants be any different?
And I believe this is the model that Canada aspires to.

Everyone makes a living wage, and then tipping is not required... or truly at a lower level where it is more of a kind gesture, than holding the Customer hostage due to Owners & Governments current structuring where the lowest workers amongst are not essentially paid enough to live on

It is not the Customers responsibility to fix this... the responsibility falls on the shoulders of the Emoloyer & the Govt
(Although both seem to relish in blaming each other... but then it’s always easy to blame the Govt even if the faults of society are the will of the people)

Money & Power gets way more attention / privledge than those at the bottom
So it is business interests that are balking the loudest since Canada began the movement towards a living wage

Tipping is an archaic deemeaning practice... literally people begging to be paid at the mercy of those that have that power & money
A bad hangover from the Post Slavery Reconstruction / Victorian / Gilded Age... if more folks knew the history
They too might be more offended... and join the fight for a Living Wage in Canada

Making changes in Canada won’t be easy though... cause of the INFLUENCES we encounter socially & economically next to the USA
Where the division between the social classes are much greater (poverty to Mega Rich)
And a sad belief exists from that country’s very beginning that some are superior to others... because God deems it so
If you were born into poverty then that was the fault of your destiny, and your parents... and by extension you

Thank goodness the majority of Cdns don’t look at things this way
In that we must somehow distance ourselves from the most unfortunate amongst us

We actually tend to Centre around the idea when we help others get ahead... then we also help ourselves
By building a better society

Until things are fixed though, and we actually get to a Living Wage for every Cdn, we have the system we have
So I will continue to tip
Although as we move closer to making a Living Wage a reality... it probably be less percentage wise
Deal Addict
User avatar
Aug 16, 2010
4120 posts
590 upvotes
Aurora
PointsHubby wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 9:15 am
Ya Canada is not perfect, but a lot better than the USA in this regard
Our country is trying to move towards a Living Wage (vs Minimum Wage per se)
The idea is endorsed by our Federal Government to raise people here above poverty
The recommended Living Wage is $ 15 per hour by 2020
About 10% of Canadians live below the Poverty Line
Most of them women & children
They are the working poor who make Minimum Wage or less
Have few to no benefits, and very little job security

In the USA they are pushing a 15% Poverty Rate
And there are still some US States (Deep South) Where there IS NO MINIMUM WAGE
Employers can pay whatever they want
Some servers there make $ 2 or $ 3 an hour
The US Federal Govt (Obama) brought in a FEDERAL Law to amend this
With a Federal Minimum Wage Guarantee (around $ 7)

But just like here in Canada, the minimum wage is not set Federally (there State / here Province or Territory)
So the offending US States just ignored the Bill
They are... Alabama - Louisiana - Mississippi - South Carolina - and Tennessee
The unspoken assumption here is that all work deserves at least this minimum wage. And, of course the counterpoint is that reasonably, logically, economically, morally, not all paid activities deserve this. It can certainly be argued that citizens of a country have a guaranteed right to a means to survival - a living wage. Though it can be argued that the difference should come from social welfare benefits and not directly from employers paying an economically fair wage for the work being done.
Deal Addict
Feb 7, 2017
2764 posts
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DiceMan wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 11:37 pm
The unspoken assumption here is that all work deserves at least this minimum wage.
And, of course the counterpoint is that reasonably, logically, economically, morally, not all paid activities deserve this.

It can certainly be argued that citizens of a country have a guaranteed right to a means to survival - a living wage.
Though it can be argued that the difference should come from social welfare benefits and not directly from employers paying an economically fair wage for the work being done.
There are certainly those that have difficulty getting or holding a Minimum Wage Job... due to mental capacity, illness, lack of education, or language skills.

And you are correct there are social programs in place to HELP these individuals... so they may indeed integrate better into society... and hopefully they too become contributors via their aquired skills and can become a earner / contributor like everyone else.

That most definitely is the goal... and if you speak with such folks, their goal too

And ultimately it is what the majority of Cdns want
Have social benefits available for those in need
But also have social programs available so that fewer people need to lean on social benefits full time
That folks can move toward being more self sufficient
And valuable contributing members of Cdn Society

And that DOES NOT MEAN living below the poverty line
That means making enough money to live on for 2000 Hours of work per year
A fair Living Wage

I can think of numerous social programs that have had major successes in helping out what is considered the fringe of our society... where the mentality challenged learn self confidence, the addicted the benefits of rehab, life skills & mentoring, the dropouts finish HS, and the new immigrants acquire Language & Employable skills.

Sure, they all have to start somewhere... be that thru volunteering or working a few hours along side their training... but to say such work they perform (before or after) is not worthwhile of the minimum wage... well that’s just discriminatory, and an ABUSE OF POWER

If one is employed... then one deserves the Minimum Wage for that job
Anything else is both immoral and ILLEGAL

If one (the Employer) hires someone (the Employee) then the proper Cdn lLaws should be adhered to.
No more under the table, behind closed doors illegal workers.

That benefits not the worker or Cdn Society
That ONLY benefits the Employer

Our country has worked hard to eliminate such practices thru legislation to protect the most vulnerable amongst us... those who often are unable to speak up for themselves (Domestics, Nannies, Housekeepers, Produce Pickers, Dishwashers, Handymen Helpers, etc)

Canada needs to stop allowing Employers off the hook... by turning a blind eye to practices they embrace that INTENTIONALLY put more money in their pockets vs meeting their MORAL & LEGAL OBLIGATIONS to their employees

The living wage is complicated... in that it is restructuring how we look at work and what is fair pay for the job performed
The transition will not be easy... there will be growing pains (for all)
But it is not the first time in our History, that we have taken the side of the underdog thru legislation vs the wishes of business
Healthcare, UI / EI, Maternity & Paternity Leave... these were all for the benefit of the working man / woman
And in all cases, business yelped it would be the doom of them
It clearly wasn’t

When we help the most vulnerable amongst us improve their lot in life
We ultimately all improve as a society
Newbie
Aug 4, 2014
4 posts
2 upvotes
Brampton, ON
I dont understand the whole tipping culture.I have seen so many restra owners who are buying expensive cars and house and opening a 2nd or 3rd location but they expects me to pay the employee's by tipping them.
Newbie
Jan 9, 2018
1 posts
4 upvotes
No more tipping if they are getting the minimum wage.Thats what I am getting working in a warehouse and nobody tips me there :(
Member
Sep 8, 2006
428 posts
167 upvotes
Edmonton
krs wrote:
Jan 9th, 2018 2:41 pm
So how do you think that is going to help?

Do you expect politicians to outlaw tipping?

If I remember right, there was a restaurant out west, maybe more than one, where tipping was abolished for a while but that turned out to be a big flop.

PS: I don't like tipping either, maybe restaurants should try what they do in Europe - add a 12 or 15% service fee.
It was Cafe Linnea in Edmonton. They had to raise prices by 20% or something to pay the living wage. I assume they lost business and it wasn't sustainable so they went back to lower prices and tipping.

http://edmontonjournal.com/life/food/ca ... restaurant

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