Shopping Discussion

Tip Shaming?

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  • Mar 16th, 2024 1:55 pm
Banned
Apr 5, 2013
5810 posts
3019 upvotes
keenland
hvwozq wrote: Guy who is on RFD keeps trying to insult other people for being on RFD. :lol: Nobody here really cares what you think, but it's funny reading your self-righteous posts where you get all worked up. Keep them coming.
i dont get worked up at all...it more makes me laugh (hilariously) that the type of people that come here to find a deal, then hoard it, then sell it on kijiji, are the same people that are asking in other threads, how to find a girl or get laid, then are on other threads complaining of about their bad travel experience booking through sunshit or cheapo air..next will be a post about how to boost a dead battery, then "the car dealer ripped me off"...and all of a sudden, they get in a circle jerk about why tipping should be abolished....yet most havent even moved out of their parents basement yet....they go out once a year (if that) but want to change a social culture of tipping (because they want to save a penny) and they are jealous of the money a server can make..yet they dont have the social skillset nor the nature of risk needed to excel and be successful in that type of job...by ranting on some forum..yes, I get a kick out it..and I will offer the opposing argument ..I will be insulted and I will insult....but in the end, my life wont change..its just like politics, and the posts on here ...its all BS and most dont understand a thing....so flame insult me..
Sr. Member
Jan 4, 2008
942 posts
413 upvotes
Mississauga
Are tips required at a restaurant when I'm ordering takeout? If I ate there, I'd be waiting for food, having someone bringing it, filling up water and all that which would require a tip. But takeout is simply ordering online and picking up when it's ready, so I'm not sure if that would require anything extra.
Deal Fanatic
Jan 21, 2008
8559 posts
5351 upvotes
bylo wrote: Bullshit. I'm quite happy to end tipping by paying higher menu prices--if that money goes to staff rather than to line the owner's pockets.

This has to be done all-or-nothing, i.e. by legislation.

Otherwise:
1. Patrons will delude themselves by going to restaurants that offer lower prices, continue to give tips, and then end up paying as much or more for their meals as they would have at no-tip restaurants.
2. Servers will leave no-tip restaurants for tipping restaurants because they can earn more off tips, especially if they don't declare everything.

Of course politicians don't have the spine to do that so it will never happen.

This has nothing to do with the "spineless" patrons you seem so eager to blame for this situation.

That's hardly "razor thin" compared to other businesses like grocery stores. Yet grocery stores don't seem to have the same turnover as restaurants. There are more significant factors at play here than wages, despite the industry's attempts to frame it as a wages issue. Don't fall for their bullshit.
I think your points about it needing to be legislation so that its all restaurants, & politicians lack of spine to enact such legislation, are spot on. However, to be fair, restaurants absolutely are a brutal business, with the highest failure rate of any business, & yes, the margins are razor thin. Supermarkets is 1 of the few industries with even lower margins. The difference is, supermarkets are controlled by just a few big conglomerates, they have tons of data & know what to do & how to operate in such a cutthroat sphere. Mom & pop grocery stores struggle mightily, this can be seen because so many of them are listed as being for sale at such low prices. Huge chain supermarkets overwhelmingly dominate, while big chain restaurants are all around also, but there are much higher levels of independent restaurants, as opposed to mom & pop shop grocery stores. Even many longtime restaurants for consistently good reviews, I find listed for sale for prices which suggest they are not a very profitable business

Companies like Loblaws, Sobeys, Metro, etc are all so huge, they can operate at even more thin razor margins. In the restaurant industry, there is a high percentage of independent non chains, though chains certainly are quite prevalent too. If the only restaurants around where McDonalds & Tim Hortons, then yea, they can afford to operate on such razor thin margins. But independent small restaurants find it very hard to make a living on these razor thin margins.
Deal Guru
User avatar
Oct 16, 2008
11312 posts
5494 upvotes
Vaughan
But Chinese restaurants here in Toronto think otherwise. Many of them have tips built in the food bills even they provide lousy services. Once I did not give tips because their waitress provided very poor service. They asked me why; I told them of lousy service. They gave me dirty look. They think tips are mandatory; I think 'NOT'. Many times I adjusted the tipping scales to 10-15%.
In Japan, tips are insult to them.
aznnorth wrote: This is where China is better - no tipping or taxes. In fact some local peeps find it insulting or immoral to accept tips for jobs they are paid to do... One foreigner experience. He gave a tip to a chic at a restaurant and she ended up chasing him to the parking lot to personally hand him his tip back saying "It's not right. I'm already paid to do my job."

Wow, what a concept!! *shock*
...
Member
Oct 10, 2016
211 posts
53 upvotes
Vancouver
chimaican wrote: There should also be a tipping cap. Just because I eat a $200 meal with friends, doesn't mean the servers deserve a $30 or $40 or $50 tip.... Sheesh.... There should be a maximum cap. Percentage based is BS.
I ran into this problem last week. Same restaurant, same number of people, same number of items, but we designed to order expensive items. Should we tip more than usual amount?
Deal Addict
Feb 16, 2018
1292 posts
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HP_John wrote: I think your points about it needing to be legislation so that its all restaurants, & politicians lack of spine to enact such legislation, are spot on. However, to be fair, restaurants absolutely are a brutal business, with the highest failure rate of any business, & yes, the margins are razor thin. Supermarkets is 1 of the few industries with even lower margins. The difference is, supermarkets are controlled by just a few big conglomerates, they have tons of data & know what to do & how to operate in such a cutthroat sphere. Mom & pop grocery stores struggle mightily, this can be seen because so many of them are listed as being for sale at such low prices. Huge chain supermarkets overwhelmingly dominate, while big chain restaurants are all around also, but there are much higher levels of independent restaurants, as opposed to mom & pop shop grocery stores. Even many longtime restaurants for consistently good reviews, I find listed for sale for prices which suggest they are not a very profitable business

Companies like Loblaws, Sobeys, Metro, etc are all so huge, they can operate at even more thin razor margins. In the restaurant industry, there is a high percentage of independent non chains, though chains certainly are quite prevalent too. If the only restaurants around where McDonalds & Tim Hortons, then yea, they can afford to operate on such razor thin margins. But independent small restaurants find it very hard to make a living on these razor thin margins.
This.

You can’t compare supermarkets doing massive volumes of $$ to the restaurants or take out places doing 300-500k a year in sales. If those restaurants were doing the same volume that the grocery stores were doing than yes the margins would work just fine.

You can’t compare margins from one business against another just “because” and regardless of what some people in this thread claim, the vast majority won’t pay higher menu prices because they don't have to tip. There has been several news stories about restaurant x doing away with tipping and charging higher prices and paying higher wages and having to revert back to tipping because there was backlash.
Deal Addict
Feb 16, 2018
1292 posts
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dxbender wrote: Are tips required at a restaurant when I'm ordering takeout? If I ate there, I'd be waiting for food, having someone bringing it, filling up water and all that which would require a tip. But takeout is simply ordering online and picking up when it's ready, so I'm not sure if that would require anything extra.
Tipping isnt about just tipping the server, when you tip you are actually tipping the chef who cooked your food, the hostess who sat you, the bus boy who made sure the places was clean etc..

When you placed your order online someone still had to confirm the order, cook it, bag it add napkins and condiments etc and then give you your order and take payment for it. The only thing that is missing from that equation is your food was not handed to you at a table, rather it was handed to you at the counter and you probably had one less 10 second conversation with the server asking you if you wanted a refill

In the end its up to you.
Banned
Apr 5, 2013
5810 posts
3019 upvotes
keenland
HghSsociety wrote: Tipping isnt about just tipping the server, when you tip you are actually tipping the chef who cooked your food, the hostess who sat you, the bus boy who made sure the places was clean etc..

When you placed your order online someone still had to confirm the order, cook it, bag it add napkins and condiments etc and then give you your order and take payment for it. The only thing that is missing from that equation is your food was not handed to you at a table, rather it was handed to you at the counter and you probably had one less 10 second conversation with the server asking you if you wanted a refill

In the end its up to you.
if you read my posts...I am an adamant supporter of tipping when dining IN a restaurant...I WILL NEVER tip on a take out or pick up item... I am old school...I dont believe chefs should be tipped, I am against pooling of tips, I believe in tip outs to staff that help the server (busboy, bartender) ..the system has become perverted in the last decade and being taken advantage of by managements I believe.
Chefs are paid decent, whether they make tips or not...serving staff are not, their income is solely on business and service provided...many or all chefs are salaried or paid hourly to do their job and will be paid regardless of how good or bad he is
Deal Expert
Jan 7, 2002
29587 posts
28910 upvotes
Waterloo, ON
cardguy wrote: the system has become perverted in the last decade and being taken advantage of by managements
+1

Moreover:
1. This perversion has been going on a lot longer than just a decade.
2. The rate of perversion has been accelerating, aided and abetted by new technology.
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Feb 16, 2018
1292 posts
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cardguy wrote: if you read my posts...I am an adamant supporter of tipping when dining IN a restaurant...I WILL NEVER tip on a take out or pick up item... I am old school...I dont believe chefs should be tipped, I am against pooling of tips, I believe in tip outs to staff that help the server (busboy, bartender) ..the system has become perverted in the last decade and being taken advantage of by managements I believe.
Chefs are paid decent, whether they make tips or not...serving staff are not, their income is solely on business and service provided...many or all chefs are salaried or paid hourly to do their job and will be paid regardless of how good or bad he is
If you are talking about a high end restaurant who employs head chefs, sous chefs etc than yes they are paid well. If you are talking about your local Boston Pizza, Kelseys, Montanas, East Sides (insert chain X here) than they are paid barely above minimum wage, which really isn't "decent" at all.

There are far more chefs/cooks making minimum wage or slightly above compared to those that are making 50k/year on a Salary or higher hourly wage simply because of the ratio of high end restaurants vs chains/small independents

And as I said earlier, in the end it's up to you but the wage difference between a server and a chef in one of those places is a lot smaller than you realize, that is why tips are pooled. Regardless if you agree or not, that is how the industry works and it will never change unless all restaurants change either by being forced or voluntarily at the same time
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Jul 17, 2008
11042 posts
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HghSsociety wrote: If you are talking about a high end restaurant who employs head chefs, sous chefs etc than yes they are paid well. If you are talking about your local Boston Pizza, Kelseys, Montanas, East Sides (insert chain X here) than they are paid barely above minimum wage, which really isn't "decent" at all.

There are far more chefs/cooks making minimum wage or slightly above compared to those that are making 50k/year on a Salary or higher hourly wage simply because of the ratio of high end restaurants vs chains/small independents

And as I said earlier, in the end it's up to you but the wage difference between a server and a chef in one of those places is a lot smaller than you realize, that is why tips are pooled. Regardless if you agree or not, that is how the industry works and it will never change unless all restaurants change either by being forced or voluntarily at the same time
And it will change immediately if everybody would just stop tipping. All these servers you think will keep working when they can no longer lavish in their 60k income in tips by just putting a smile and ferry food to tables? They will either have to deal with it like all the other minimum wage people from fast food, or get some better paying jobs.
Deal Expert
Jan 7, 2002
29587 posts
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Waterloo, ON
Messerschmitt wrote: And it will change immediately if everybody would just stop tipping.
Or if restaurateurs paid their staff a decent wage rather than reduce them to the equivalent of pan handlers begging for handouts. Just about every other industry manages to do it. Why can't this one?

PhysiciansRestaurateurs heal thyself.
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Feb 7, 2017
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bylo wrote: Or if restaurateurs paid their staff a decent wage rather than reduce them to the equivalent of pan handlers begging for handouts. Just about every other industry manages to do it. Why can't this one?

PhysiciansRestaurateurs heal thyself.
Hear, hear

Time to stop this ridiculous hang over from the US Post Civil War Era / Reconstruction Period

Where class system (colour, ethnicity, who your parents were) dictated how much you earned ... and what you obtained in life

When Slavery was abolished, so too was the Indentured Servant Class .. US 13th Amendment

The exception, that gained traction was in Restaurant Industry (and some other Service jobs) as it evolved in the late 1800s onward
Where combined with Jim Crow legislation
It was just a new way to turn the poorer classes into people held captive to their earnings

Time all this begging for tips stopped

We need to go to a Living Wage System
Where people working 40 hours a week x 50 weeks a year
(2 weeks paid vacation)
Can earn enough money to actually live on

If other countries can do without tipping, so can North America
Banned
Apr 5, 2013
5810 posts
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keenland
HghSsociety wrote: If you are talking about a high end restaurant who employs head chefs, sous chefs etc than yes they are paid well. If you are talking about your local Boston Pizza, Kelseys, Montanas, East Sides (insert chain X here) than they are paid barely above minimum wage, which really isn't "decent" at all.

There are far more chefs/cooks making minimum wage or slightly above compared to those that are making 50k/year on a Salary or higher hourly wage simply because of the ratio of high end restaurants vs chains/small independents

And as I said earlier, in the end it's up to you but the wage difference between a server and a chef in one of those places is a lot smaller than you realize, that is why tips are pooled. Regardless if you agree or not, that is how the industry works and it will never change unless all restaurants change either by being forced or voluntarily at the same time
in my time...there was very few franchise restaurants..and back of the house was paid decent..current times..(last 20 years) not so much...luckily I am 20 years removed from the industry as I would have a hard time pooling tips...and just to add...pooling is just a thing in restaurants...AFAIK..hotels and traditional places (usually better places to work) still do not adhere to pooling tips.
Banned
Apr 5, 2013
5810 posts
3019 upvotes
keenland
Messerschmitt wrote: And it will change immediately if everybody would just stop tipping. All these servers you think will keep working when they can no longer lavish in their 60k income in tips by just putting a smile and ferry food to tables? They will either have to deal with it like all the other minimum wage people from fast food, or get some better paying jobs.
stop your whining....you are just a cheap and jealous individual..it shows in your posts....you get jealous when others have the ability to earn more than you..and you resent the fact when you are forced to spend a dime more than you have to..if you like that type of society..move to one...otherwise try to assimilate
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Feb 16, 2018
1292 posts
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bylo wrote: Or if restaurateurs paid their staff a decent wage rather than reduce them to the equivalent of pan handlers begging for handouts. Just about every other industry manages to do it. Why can't this one?

PhysiciansRestaurateurs heal thyself.
It's been pointed out to you more than once that margins are super slim in the restaurant industry. Because of those slim margins It has the highest failure rate of any type of business. It has also been pointed out that consumers will not pay 20% more so that owners can pay their staff a better wage when other restaurants are 20% cheaper. A quick google search will confirm both of those statements.

So you can continue to ask "why" until you are blue in the face but it's pointless when the facts are right there in front of you. No one can help you if you refuse to see whats right in front of your face.

When consumers are willing to pay 20% more for their meals things will change but that will never happen. People are on the verge of riots in the McDonalds thread when the price goes up 20 cents on a $1.99 McDouble and some other guy created a thread recently about how $2 for a small pop is outrageous at Burger King, so yea, not going to happen any time soon
Some Industry-Related Profit Margins

Restaurant profit margins hit a significant low in 2008, when the profit margin for restaurants across the industry declined to an excruciatingly thin 0.5 percent. Since then, they've risen steadily, reaching about 2 percent in 2013, and then 3 percent by the end of 2016 and, finally, 6 percent by the end of 2017.
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Jul 17, 2008
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cardguy wrote: stop your whining....you are just a cheap and jealous individual..it shows in your posts....you get jealous when others have the ability to earn more than you..and you resent the fact when you are forced to spend a dime more than you have to..if you like that type of society..move to one...otherwise try to assimilate
I will assimilate. By stopping to tip. And to make sure my food won't get spit into, I will make sure I will never go to the same restaurant twice. A kick in the butt to owners too by going to the competition
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HghSsociety wrote: It's been pointed out to you more than once that margins are super slim in the restaurant industry. Because of those slim margins It has the highest failure rate of any type of business. It has also been pointed out that consumers will not pay 20% more so that owners can pay their staff a better wage when other restaurants are 20% cheaper. A quick google search will confirm both of those statements.

So you can continue to ask "why" until you are blue in the face but it's pointless when the facts are right there in front of you. No one can help you if you refuse to see whats right in front of your face.

When consumers are willing to pay 20% more for their meals things will change but that will never happen. People are on the verge of riots in the McDonalds thread when the price goes up 20 cents on a $1.99 McDouble and some other guy created a thread recently about how $2 for a small pop is outrageous at Burger King, so yea, not going to happen any time soon
Super slim? That's why restaurants are dime and dozen, even in towns with merely a few thousands people?

A steak that costs $30-40 when the I can make the same at home for $10. Multiply this by hundreds of patrons every day. Sure, small margins. Maybe why a lot of them go out of business is because they try to milk the cow too between 20 other restaurants in a city centre and the history and reviews of the established restaurants just prevent them for diners to go to them
Deal Expert
Jan 7, 2002
29587 posts
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Waterloo, ON
HghSsociety wrote: It's been pointed out to you more than once that margins are super slim in the restaurant industry.
You can try to defend the indefensible all you like but that won't make it rational. All businesses face the same challenges with respect to the cost of labour and the need to make a profit. Yours "deals" with it by effectively leaving it to the discretion of the patron, then blaming them when they resent it. What a great business model--Not!
It has also been pointed out that consumers will not pay 20% more so that owners can pay their staff a better wage when other restaurants are 20% cheaper.
If ALL restaurants charged 20% (or whatever) more in order to pay their staff a decent wage then this would be a non-issue. We pay for other goods and services based on what the seller charges with the understanding that whatever we pay includes the cost of labour. No reason why your industry couldn't do that if it spent its efforts on that task rather than devoting so much effort to defending the indefensible, coming up with new ways to scam/shame patrons, etc. And then you have the nerve to complain about slim profit margins.
When consumers are willing to pay 20% more for their meals things will change but that will never happen.
Who says they aren't? Elsewhere in the world like Europe, Japan, Australia, etc. people do so routinely. I haven't noticed any dearth of restaurants in those countries. What's more the quality of food and service is at least as good as it is here. So much for that silly attempt to blame the public for your industry's greed (or rank incompetence) that knows no bounds.
People are on the verge of riots in the McDonalds thread when the price goes up 20 cents on a $1.99 McDouble and some other guy created a thread recently about how $2 for a small pop is outrageous at Burger King, so yea, not going to happen any time soon
Another silly argument. Sure some people will complain. But the vast majority realize that price increases are a necessary evil in our society. People bitch when the price of gas goes up too. And then they fill up their tank and move on. They'll do the same at restaurants.
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Feb 16, 2018
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Messerschmitt wrote: Super slim? That's why restaurants are dime and dozen, even in towns with merely a few thousands people?

A steak that costs $30-40 when the I can make the same at home for $10. Multiply this by hundreds of patrons every day. Sure, small margins. Maybe why a lot of them go out of business is because they try to milk the cow too between 20 other restaurants in a city centre and the history and reviews of the established restaurants just prevent them for diners to go to them
You have no idea what you are talking about. Not even remotely. Restaurant margins are super slim. Average margins are about 5% with some higher and some lower depending on the type of restaurant it is. You conveniently left out rent, wages gas, hydro taxes and a million other expenses that get paid out on top of the cost of food. If margins were so high there wouldn't be an issue if there were 20 other restaurants in a city center.

1:21 on the video explains it adequately





https://yourbusiness.azcentral.com/aver ... 13113.html

https://pos.toasttab.com/blog/average-r ... fit-margin

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