Sports & Recreation

The Toronto Blue Jays/MLB Thread

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  • Oct 22nd, 2017 1:10 am
Deal Addict
Mar 10, 2005
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LucifersGhost wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 9:26 am
I feel as though you are still missing a part of the equation. Let's retcon this a little:

Jays offer EE and JD whatever they offered them. Then they wait. EE and JD play the market. 1 month. 2 months. and BAM .. they both sign with other teams. Fine. It happens. But oh wait .. what if Morales, and Pierce and whatever other players werent available anymore? Then you would be complaining that the Jays sat on their hands and did nothing.

The FACT is that ... they have a full team to fill. Not two guys. They put out offers and EE and JD wanted to test the market, which they are free to do. But that doesnt mean the Jays must sit on their hands and do nothing. Sure, Morales and Pierce might not be the best options .. but they are the best options that were available that fit in with the team salary structure (which is an entirely different complaint). Sure it sucks losing EE, no doubt. It will suck if JD doesnt come back (I feel as though, even at his age, he can still be a strong player). But Shatkins just cant sit back and wait for these two to make up their minds.
JD? Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion were the Free Agents.
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Sep 24, 2007
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It doesn't matter in the end because of one major factor. Payroll. Rogers gave the GM a hard number to work with and based on it, they couldn't offer any more without blowing it or reducing their chances at other signings. Jays had a choice to make. It was a tough call but there was no way out for them. Like others have said, EE resigns great all good but what happens if EE doesn't and everyone else is gone? Do we do a panic signing and go give JB 25 million a year because he is the only one left? Or what if no other FA were looking at us because they didn't see a good fit?

You have to remember that the Jays are not a team FAs are asking their agents to sign with or asking about. We have limited market appeal and we have to sign what we can get. It is the sad reality of a Toronto market team. As good as we are, a lot of top tier talent will still ignore us.
blexann wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 10:16 am
Learn to read

This comes on the heels of a report from TSN’s Rick Westhead that Encarnacion and his agent are seeking a five-year, $125 million contract. Though the fifth year could prove problematic for some teams, the $25 million annual value is conceivable given his value. On Monday evening, Sportsnet’s Shi Davidi added that the Blue Jays were “making a push”.
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danman227460 wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 10:56 am
It doesn't matter in the end because of one major factor. Payroll. Rogers gave the GM a hard number to work with and based on it, they couldn't offer any more without blowing it or reducing their chances at other signings. Jays had a choice to make. It was a tough call but there was no way out for them. Like others have said, EE resigns great all good but what happens if EE doesn't and everyone else is gone? Do we do a panic signing and go give JB 25 million a year because he is the only one left? Or what if no other FA were looking at us because they didn't see a good fit?

You have to remember that the Jays are not a team FAs are asking their agents to sign with or asking about. We have limited market appeal and we have to sign what we can get. It is the sad reality of a Toronto market team. As good as we are, a lot of top tier talent will still ignore us.

You are correct on Rogers and the payroll, however define what you mean by "...and everyone else is gone?" If your talking about Morales and Pearce both of them are currently ranked middle to bottom of the available FA's, Morales #22-#29 and Pearce #42-#49 - there was absolutely no good reason for the Jays to quickly jump on either player as both would have likely still been available. It's absurd to think the Jays would not have had time to adjust after EE declined.
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Jun 28, 2015
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Toronto, ON
blexann wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 10:50 am
JD? Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion were the Free Agents.
Crap. My bad. Put the wrong inital. Should have been JB. Oops.
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Jun 28, 2015
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Toronto, ON
blexann wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 11:23 am
You are correct on Rogers and the payroll, however define what you mean by "...and everyone else is gone?" If your talking about Morales and Pearce both of them are currently ranked middle to bottom of the available FA's, Morales #22-#29 and Pearce #42-#49 - there was absolutely no good reason for the Jays to quickly jump on either player as both would have likely still been available. It's absurd to think the Jays would not have had time to adjust after EE declined.
That may or may not be true. There is no way to tell. But the Jays would worse off if things didnt pan out.

Who is left in the FA market that could a) fill the shoes that Morales and Pierce will; for b) the same or less salary?
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LucifersGhost wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 12:05 pm
That may or may not be true. There is no way to tell. But the Jays would worse off if things didnt pan out.

Who is left in the FA market that could a) fill the shoes that Morales and Pierce will; for b) the same or less salary?
Trumbo, Napoli, Weiters, Moss to name a few
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blexann wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 12:11 pm
Trumbo, Napoli, Weiters, Moss to name a few
You're kidding right? Trumbo and Napoli wont sign for anywhere close to what Morales and Pierce signed for. Trumbo, in particular, is gonna get paid. The guy just hit .. what .. 49 homers?

I'll give you the other two though. Weiters would be a good pick up.

However, in the big picture, we don't know that the blue jays didnt talk to either of them.
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Feb 3, 2005
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People need to move on. Seriously. If you look at reality, this team was getting OLD! Signing JB and EE would have broke the bank, and would have tied up huge money for years to come. That guarantees that after another season - maybe 2 - we are in major decline and have to go full sell off and rebuild (if anything can even be dumped at that point). We also pretty much ensure that we lose out on JD due to money being locked up elsewhere, and our other young talent that is due to get paid is more likely to be lost.

The reality is that AA 'went for it'. He depleted the system of prospects, and he brought in big salaries (which he could do - and afford - to make a highly competitive team thanks to the great production from JB and EE at reasonable cost). That gave us a few years to make a hard run and we did.

The management are now faced with carrying large contracts on peaked/declining players, having an old team, and needing to have a plan to turn the team over while still being competitive. It isn't as easy as most here wish it to be. Hindsight is wonderful, and with it we can see that players could have been cheaper than expected (by everyone!)... but that is hindsight. The multiyear deals and big money for old players really still doesn't add up.

I feel like they are taking a balanced approach to sign mid range guys who can likely earn their salary or overproduce, and only need to commit to a couple/few years at most. The team can still be competitive (pending their remaining roster moves, good health, etc), and it gives them a chance to ensure they have money coming free in a couple years to resign their key players as they hit free agency, or possibly lock them up early. The way to win In this league is to build from within, and augment.... not pay top dollar for past their prime free agents.

PS - I am not saying I love the way the team looks and every signing that has been made, I'm just saying that I understand the situation they are in and generally agree with not pursuing JB and EE (although EE for 3 years would have been great... but nobody saw that coming). I think they are hoping to do their major work via trade due to the tricky balance they are working with...
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LucifersGhost wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 12:37 pm
You're kidding right? Trumbo and Napoli wont sign for anywhere close to what Morales and Pierce signed for. Trumbo, in particular, is gonna get paid. The guy just hit .. what .. 49 homers?

I'll give you the other two though. Weiters would be a good pick up.

However, in the big picture, we don't know that the blue jays didnt talk to either of them.
Do you know who Trumbo is? or just look at the latest stats?

Anyway I'll give you Trumbo, Napoli is right around Morales and the other 2 just below him, there are others, Reddick...etc. You asked. There was no need for them to panic.
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Tiberius wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 1:21 pm
People need to move on. Seriously. If you look at reality, this team was getting OLD! Signing JB and EE would have broke the bank, and would have tied up huge money for years to come. That guarantees that after another season - maybe 2 - we are in major decline and have to go full sell off and rebuild (if anything can even be dumped at that point). We also pretty much ensure that we lose out on JD due to money being locked up elsewhere, and our other young talent that is due to get paid is more likely to be lost.

The reality is that AA 'went for it'. He depleted the system of prospects, and he brought in big salaries (which he could do - and afford - to make a highly competitive team thanks to the great production from JB and EE at reasonable cost). That gave us a few years to make a hard run and we did.

The management are now faced with carrying large contracts on peaked/declining players, having an old team, and needing to have a plan to turn the team over while still being competitive. It isn't as easy as most here wish it to be. Hindsight is wonderful, and with it we can see that players could have been cheaper than expected (by everyone!)... but that is hindsight. The multiyear deals and big money for old players really still doesn't add up.

I feel like they are taking a balanced approach to sign mid range guys who can likely earn their salary or overproduce, and only need to commit to a couple/few years at most. The team can still be competitive (pending their remaining roster moves, good health, etc), and it gives them a chance to ensure they have money coming free in a couple years to resign their key players as they hit free agency, or possibly lock them up early. The way to win In this league is to build from within, and augment.... not pay top dollar for past their prime free agents.

PS - I am not saying I love the way the team looks and every signing that has been made, I'm just saying that I understand the situation they are in and generally agree with not pursuing JB and EE (although EE for 3 years would have been great... but nobody saw that coming). I think they are hoping to do their major work via trade due to the tricky balance they are working with...
I agree with this.

Morales and Pierce certainly arent ideal by any stretch. But, given their internal budget hurdles and the, I assume, lack of desire to not wait for weeks and months for JB and EE, they made some moves. Maybe they pan out, maybe they dont.

If they can fix their 7th and 8th inning relievers, I'll be a bit more confident. The starting rotation is pretty damn good and Osuna, outside of a blip here and there, is a monster. I personally feel we need to be a bit stronger between the two. There were a lot of lost games in that area imo.

The team isnt perfect but a team with that kind of rotation, that caliber of closer, and a decent amount of ooumpf in the line up, can still be dangerous. It could always be better but we certainly wont be the Minnesota Twins either. I think they will still be competitive in a very tough division.
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Feb 11, 2007
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Signing younger, significantly less talented players and rebuilding won't exactly help the team either.

Older players like David Ortiz (had a legit all-star, MVP type year), Derek Jeter, Paul Molitor, Ichiro Suzuki were all able to
put up outstanding productivity in their late 30s and 40s.

Edwin is only 33 right now.

Tiberius wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 1:21 pm
People need to move on. Seriously. If you look at reality, this team was getting OLD! Signing JB and EE would have broke the bank, and would have tied up huge money for years to come. That guarantees that after another season - maybe 2 - we are in major decline and have to go full sell off and rebuild (if anything can even be dumped at that point). We also pretty much ensure that we lose out on JD due to money being locked up elsewhere, and our other young talent that is due to get paid is more likely to be lost.

The reality is that AA 'went for it'. He depleted the system of prospects, and he brought in big salaries (which he could do - and afford - to make a highly competitive team thanks to the great production from JB and EE at reasonable cost). That gave us a few years to make a hard run and we did.

The management are now faced with carrying large contracts on peaked/declining players, having an old team, and needing to have a plan to turn the team over while still being competitive. It isn't as easy as most here wish it to be. Hindsight is wonderful, and with it we can see that players could have been cheaper than expected (by everyone!)... but that is hindsight. The multiyear deals and big money for old players really still doesn't add up.

I feel like they are taking a balanced approach to sign mid range guys who can likely earn their salary or overproduce, and only need to commit to a couple/few years at most. The team can still be competitive (pending their remaining roster moves, good health, etc), and it gives them a chance to ensure they have money coming free in a couple years to resign their key players as they hit free agency, or possibly lock them up early. The way to win In this league is to build from within, and augment.... not pay top dollar for past their prime free agents.

PS - I am not saying I love the way the team looks and every signing that has been made, I'm just saying that I understand the situation they are in and generally agree with not pursuing JB and EE (although EE for 3 years would have been great... but nobody saw that coming). I think they are hoping to do their major work via trade due to the tricky balance they are working with...
Deal Addict
Aug 21, 2007
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it is sad when i have to defend rogers when they offered fair market or higher to EE right out of the gate and he blew the off. that...is A FACT!
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I said long ago they could have one but not both of EE or JB. so we shall see what happens with JB.
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Apr 11, 2006
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blexann wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 11:23 am
...however define what you mean by "...and everyone else is gone?"...
LucifersGhost wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 12:05 pm
That may or may not be true. There is no way to tell. But the Jays would worse off if things didnt pan out.

Who is left in the FA market that could a) fill the shoes that Morales and Pierce will; for b) the same or less salary?
blexann, you keep being ignorant to the concept that the rest of the market continues to move, if you choose to sit and wait, which you don't seem to get, and it's not just about the best ranked FAs first and the worst ranked FAs second. Yankees, Red Sox, Astros, were all linked to Morales as well.

We need to rebuild our prospects system, Trumbo is not an option because that requires giving up a draft pick, it was EE/JB, or nothing. We were never going to sign a free agent from another team that's been extended a qualifying offer - we weren't willing to give up a draft pick under any free agent circumstances (rightfully so).

Reddick was signed just a couple of days after Morales, so he definitely would have been off the table if we waited - not to mention he costs more per year, and an extra year (compared to Morales).

Weiters is a catcher, I don't see that working with Russell Martin, neither is going to want to be just an occasional or 50/50 backup catcher, while DH'ing the remainder. They want to catch period.

Moss is worse than Morales.

The bottom line is, Morales was who the Jays liked as their second choice, if they couldn't get EE; and Red Sox, Yankees, and Astros were all interested in him.
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kenchau wrote:
Jan 6th, 2017 7:05 pm
blexann, you keep being ignorant to the concept that the rest of the market continues to move, if you choose to sit and wait, which you don't seem to get, and it's not just about the best ranked FAs first and the worst ranked FAs second. Yankees, Red Sox, Astros, were all linked to Morales as well.

We need to rebuild our prospects system, Trumbo is not an option because that requires giving up a draft pick, it was EE/JB, or nothing. We were never going to sign a free agent from another team that's been extended a qualifying offer - we weren't willing to give up a draft pick under any free agent circumstances (rightfully so).

Reddick was signed just a couple of days after Morales, so he definitely would have been off the table if we waited - not to mention he costs more per year, and an extra year (compared to Morales).

Weiters is a catcher, I don't see that working with Russell Martin, neither is going to want to be just an occasional or 50/50 backup catcher, while DH'ing the remainder. They want to catch period.

Moss is worse than Morales.

The bottom line is, Morales was who the Jays liked as their second choice, if they couldn't get EE; and Red Sox, Yankees, and Astros were all interested in him.
Well I was asked for the options and posted them. EE was my #1 choice

You conveniently left out Napoli. Strike Trumbo and Moss but Reddick would have been an awesome pickup since he can actually play in the field. I'll add the versatile Sean Rodriguez, he can play multiple positions and would have easily addressed one of the corner outfield spots. Michael Saunders is also available, remember he was an All-Star. There are many options and there was no reason at all for them to rush and sign Morales. Yea Kinzer probably misread the market but the Jays totally messed this up.

That's 6 other players that they could have considered and that's not even including Beltran and Holliday. BTW Morales is worse than EE by a wide margin, like not close so not sure why you point out that Moss is worse than Morales, that's known.
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