Shopping Discussion

Trump’s NAFTA revamp could help CDN consumers: Online Shopping, Milk, Poultry

  • Last Updated:
  • Apr 29th, 2017 1:53 am

Poll: Do you support an increase in our import limits?

  • Total votes: 82. You have voted on this poll.
Yes
 
60
73%
No
 
22
27%

Poll ended at Apr 29th, 2017 1:54 pm

Sr. Member
Dec 5, 2015
785 posts
208 upvotes
Thornhill, ON
EastGTARedFlagger wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 1:16 am
But not all 400,000 agriculture jobs use cartel power to set prices artificially high, AND have the protection of a tariff wall so that they don't have to compete. In other words they have a monopoly. Dairy and poultry have that protection, but beef does not.

Consider that foreign butter is slapped with an almost 300% tariff on import. (if you're wondering why you never see Kerrygold butter from Ireland here, but it's readily available even at ALDI in America, that's why). What makes dairy farmers so special they deserve that kind of protection?

I didn't see the government slap a 300% tariff on iPhones and Android phones in order to protect BlackBerry jobs.
I didn't see the government slap a 300% tariff on Alcatel/Lucent/Cisco products in order to protect Nortel jobs.
I didn't see the government slap a 300% tariff on Starbucks coffee roasted in Seattle in order to protect Tim Hortons and Second Cup jobs.
and so on...

Trump may be wrong on a lot of things, but he is absolutely right on this. Tariff wall has got to go. If the dairy farmers want to continue operating as a cartel, let them. But no more tariff wall.

Where you see this in action and it works quite well is in California. Go into a supermarket in CA and you'll see California milk (selling for about what Canadian milk goes for, $4/gal) right alongside milk from other states like Wisconsin, sold at more reasonable prices (maybe $2.50/gal). The consumer makes the choice whether to buy local/organic/yada-yada or keep more money in his pocket. What's wrong with that?
Uhhh because the US subsidize their dairy Farmers 20Billion a year and US dairy doesn't even meet our standards since they inject their cows with hormones which we don't allow here

Other companies you mentioned didn't get billions in state funding ..If they did.. They'll be slapped with a tariff too
Deal Addict
Nov 15, 2008
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EastGTARedFlagger wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 1:16 am
But not all 400,000 agriculture jobs use cartel power to set prices artificially high, AND have the protection of a tariff wall so that they don't have to compete. In other words they have a monopoly. Dairy and poultry have that protection, but beef does not.
That's not true: beef has tariff quotas too http://www.international.gc.ca/controls ... x?lang=eng
EastGTARedFlagger wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 1:16 am
Consider that foreign butter is slapped with an almost 300% tariff on import. (if you're wondering why you never see Kerrygold butter from Ireland here, but it's readily available even at ALDI in America, that's why). What makes dairy farmers so special they deserve that kind of protection?
The 300% tax is only applicable to butter imports that exceed the tariff quota; i.e., some 3,274,000 kg are allowed in without that tariff, see link above
EastGTARedFlagger wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 1:16 am
I didn't see the government slap a 300% tariff on iPhones and Android phones in order to protect BlackBerry jobs.
I didn't see the government slap a 300% tariff on Alcatel/Lucent/Cisco products in order to protect Nortel jobs.
I didn't see the government slap a 300% tariff on Starbucks coffee roasted in Seattle in order to protect Tim Hortons and Second Cup jobs.
and so on...

Trump may be wrong on a lot of things, but he is absolutely right on this. Tariff wall has got to go. If the dairy farmers want to continue operating as a cartel, let them. But no more tariff wall.
Canada doesn't want to be a dumping ground for US overproduction. We have a very stable market with very stable prices. Why do we want to switch to an unregulated market that will have cycles of shortages and excesses just so we can get cheap milk *sometimes*?
EastGTARedFlagger wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 1:16 am
Where you see this in action and it works quite well is in California. Go into a supermarket in CA and you'll see California milk (selling for about what Canadian milk goes for, $4/gal) right alongside milk from other states like Wisconsin, sold at more reasonable prices (maybe $2.50/gal). The consumer makes the choice whether to buy local/organic/yada-yada or keep more money in his pocket. What's wrong with that?
Sure, the US can set its own policy - for the US. Canada should set its own policy - for Canada. The US should not be setting policy for Canada for the benefit of the US.
Sr. Member
Feb 22, 2016
630 posts
305 upvotes
lecale wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 10:28 am
Canada doesn't want to be a dumping ground for US overproduction. We have a very stable market with very stable prices. Why do we want to switch to an unregulated market that will have cycles of shortages and excesses just so we can get cheap milk *sometimes*?
OK, but when there's overproduction in Canada why don't we benefit from lower prices? Instead the dairy farmers just sell the excess as ANIMAL FEED or dump it into the sewer.
Could you imagine OPEC just dumping excess crude oil into the ocean (I know, illegal, but the point is made)? If there's excess crude, price goes down AS IT SHOULD.

You completely dodged my question so I will ask it again so you can't avoid it:
What makes dairy farmers so special they deserve that kind of protection?

Why are they considered more important than BlackBerry or Nortel employees who really took it on the chin? If the government wants to protect dairy farmers, don't these fine people of Waterloo and Ottawa, who work(ed) for businesses that were once the pride of our country, deserve similar? Pandering to the Quebec separatists again?
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Jun 9, 2003
23155 posts
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Markham, ON
im ok paying for Lactantia PurFiltre milk 4L $4.99
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Nov 15, 2008
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EastGTARedFlagger wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 2:43 pm
OK, but when there's overproduction in Canada why don't we benefit from lower prices? Instead the dairy farmers just sell the excess as ANIMAL FEED or dump it into the sewer.
Could you imagine OPEC just dumping excess crude oil into the ocean (I know, illegal, but the point is made)? If there's excess crude, price goes down AS IT SHOULD.
No, there is no overproduction in Canada because it is a managed supply system. Farmers are given a quota and aren't able to sell any product beyond that so they don't produce it. There's no benefit to producing waste, so Canadian farmers strive to avoid it.

US farmers are only bound by their ability to get a contract to sell their milk. There is no limit to what they can sell - it's just what they can negotiate with some company. Therefore they have lots of incentive to produce more (a lot by bovine hormones to produce more milk out of one cow, a practice not allowed in Canada.)
EastGTARedFlagger wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 2:43 pm
You completely dodged my question so I will ask it again so you can't avoid it:
What makes dairy farmers so special they deserve that kind of protection?

Why are they considered more important than BlackBerry or Nortel employees who really took it on the chin? If the government wants to protect dairy farmers, don't these fine people of Waterloo and Ottawa, who work(ed) for businesses that were once the pride of our country, deserve similar?
Well imagine if Blackberry was limited each year to only selling as many Blackberrys as there was demand for the year before? Then if demand actually outstripped supply, you would have to import US-produced BlackRaspberrys to make up the difference.

That is the milk situation...but there is no unusual demand here in Canada for milk. So imagine if we had enough Blackberrys for everyone but the US wanted to ship in tons of cut-rate BlackRaspberrys because they were cranking them out with no view of demand, and they had exhausted demand in the US. Then prices tank, Blackberry goes bankrupt in Canada, then half the companies making BlackRaspberrys in the US go bankrupt, then the product out there dates itself and prices eventually return to "normal" but the Canadian producers and 1/2 the American producers are gone. At least 1/2 the US producers survived, right? America first? And Canada no longer has a Blackberry and has to use BlackRaspberrys from then on.

The question is, why draw Canada into the US's unmanaged market cycle? They chose a system that has its ups and downs in supply; its boom and bust. If it is currently going bust now that is the US's issue to deal with.
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May 12, 2004
8747 posts
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Ottawa
Chookman wrote:
Mar 30th, 2017 5:02 pm
I'm no expert on these things (and I didn't read the article) but I bet that if the deal happens to allow US Dairy and Poultry into Canada, that our government will pay off the farmers for lost revenue. Hence, the consumers might pay less for the product at the point of sale, but more through taxes to subsidize the farmers for lost revenue.
Winner winner (Canadian) chicken dinner! They will take money from our right hand in April instead of the cartel taking it from our left hand every week. Oh and let's not forget the bureaucracy, red tape, "make work" etc...that comes with anything the government touches that will drastically bump up our end cost.

Remember when everyone was jumping for joy when the killed 3 year cell contracts? Yeah those are the same dummies who think the consumer will win in this.
Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it.
- Mark Twain
Member
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Feb 13, 2017
257 posts
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Bin Dopin's CANistan
We should all be concerned. 4 years ago Loblaws, Sobeys, and Metro outsourced food manufacturing to ensure "keeping the price of food low". I have repeatedly asked how can the Pig 3 grocers ensure what happens in another nation or overseas when they can"t control what happens in their individual stores requiring security guards.

Where does Canadas Wood, Meat, Fish, Oil, Minerals, Water, Food, Natural Gas and Avro Arrows go to? What does Canada get back in return?

Canada is manufacturing Sheep, Snowflakes and Hockey Players . Canada is the second largest country in the world and we hardly even make/hear relevant news of our own. Do not believe what your erected officials (of any gender orientation), Unions (UFCW, Unifor, Stealworkers etc) and the Pig 3 Media outlets (TVNews, Internet, Cellular) are telling you and start paying attention to the cage they are building with your hard earned money.
Last edited by TheOtherWhiteMeat on Apr 19th, 2017 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Brawls break out again at same Chuck E. Cheese's in California & Two 3 year old boys shot accidentally outside Fort Worth Chuck E. Cheese’s "
"Stay Tuned For More Breaking Cheese @ 11"
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
May 12, 2004
8747 posts
2895 upvotes
Ottawa
TheOtherWhiteMeat wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 3:36 pm
We should all be concerned. 4 years ago Loblaws, Sobeys, and Metro outsourced food manufacturing to ensure "keeping the price of food low". I have repeatedly asked how can the Pig 3 grocers ensure what happens in another nation or overseas when they can"t control what happens in their individual stores requiring security guards.

Where does Canadas Wood, Meat, Fish, Oil, Minerals, Water, Food, Natural Gas and Avro Arrows go to? What does Canada get back in return?

Canada is manufacturing Sheep, Snowflakes and Hockey Players . Canada is the second largest country in the world and we hardly even make/hear relevant news of our own. Do not believe what your erected officials, Unions (UFCW, Unifor) and the Pig 3 Media outlets (News, Internet, Cellular) are telling you and pay attention to the cage they are building with your hard earned money.
Put that way we sound like the next North Korea. Come to think of it Kim looks like Porky Pig and Justin like Pépé Le Pew...hey I might be on to a conspiracy theory!
Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it.
- Mark Twain
Member
User avatar
Feb 13, 2017
257 posts
1231 upvotes
Bin Dopin's CANistan
Cas77 wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 3:52 pm
Put that way we sound like the next North Korea. Come to think of it Kim looks like Porky Pig and Justin like Pépé Le Pew
Thats why I support shopping at the Annex and CTC buying prefabricated methane powered iconoclots
"Brawls break out again at same Chuck E. Cheese's in California & Two 3 year old boys shot accidentally outside Fort Worth Chuck E. Cheese’s "
"Stay Tuned For More Breaking Cheese @ 11"
Sr. Member
Feb 22, 2016
630 posts
305 upvotes
lecale wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 3:01 pm
*bullshit snipped*
You completely dodged my question again so I will ask it yet again so you can't avoid it:
What makes dairy farmers so special they deserve that kind of protection?


Answer limited to one sentence. I will ignore whatever you write beyond that first sentence.
Deal Addict
Nov 15, 2008
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EastGTARedFlagger wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 5:49 pm
You completely dodged my question again so I will ask it yet again so you can't avoid it:
What makes dairy farmers so special they deserve that kind of protection?


Answer limited to one sentence. I will ignore whatever you write beyond that first sentence.
Because they deal in a bioproduct where raising and cutting back on production - rather than keeping it stable - means wasting large numbers of dairy cows for dog food on a cyclical basis.

Blackberry doesn't kill off their workers when sales go down.
Sr. Member
Feb 22, 2016
630 posts
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lecale wrote:
Apr 19th, 2017 6:16 pm
Because they deal in a bioproduct where raising and cutting back on production - rather than keeping it stable - means wasting large numbers of dairy cows for dog food on a cyclical basis.
Your one sentence fails to convince. You will never be correct trying to defend a cartel monopoly. In any industry. Especially one which involves FOOD.

When you have a situation that is so blatantly one-sided -- favors the farmers but screws the consumers, favors Canada but screws our trading partners especially USA -- it can't be right. Period.

http://business.financialpost.com/fp-co ... -off-trump
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comme ... teral-cows
http://nodogsoranglophones.blogspot.ca/ ... again.html
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comme ... wn-benefit

I hope USA, Australia, and New Zealand follow through with going to the WTO:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... e34747526/

If the only reason Ottawa is scared to ditch it is because of Quebec separatist farmer votes, the only correct answer is to raise our middle fingers at Quebec and get rid of this stupidity once and for all.
Deal Addict
Nov 15, 2008
3250 posts
970 upvotes
EastGTARedFlagger wrote:
Apr 20th, 2017 5:09 pm
Your one sentence fails to convince. You will never be correct trying to defend a cartel monopoly. In any industry. Especially one which involves FOOD.

When you have a situation that is so blatantly one-sided -- favors the farmers but screws the consumers, favors Canada but screws our trading partners especially USA -- it can't be right. Period.

http://business.financialpost.com/fp-co ... -off-trump
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comme ... teral-cows
http://nodogsoranglophones.blogspot.ca/ ... again.html
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comme ... wn-benefit

I hope USA, Australia, and New Zealand follow through with going to the WTO:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... e34747526/

If the only reason Ottawa is scared to ditch it is because of Quebec separatist farmer votes, the only correct answer is to raise our middle fingers at Quebec and get rid of this stupidity once and for all.
Well food is an issue of national security, isn't it? Think of the UK in WWII and afterwards....they suffered deeply from rationing both during and for many decades after the war. That's why British food has such a foul reputation in Europe - they honestly didn't have anything good to eat (and not enough of it either, as the joke goes, though that was absolutely true). What if US mass production methods lead to an outbreak of disease that decimates the US dairy industry, and Canada gave up supply management and was dependent on US milk? I think a stable food supply is a national security issue anyway, because we are talking as you say FOOD, and not Blackberrys or whatever. Milk is hugely important as an economical source of high-quality protein.

Personally about $580 or 15% of my household grocery bill is dairy. Would I be willing to switch to US product if I could reduce my milk bill, as Coyne suggests, by 50-66% or pay as little as $190/year? I mean that is almost $400. First of all, I really doubt milk will be selling at $1.41-2.14 for 4L in Ontario as Coyne suggests. I think the benefits of competition are hugely overstated. US milk is selling now for an average price of $3.315/gal https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost which is, after converting to liters and USD...$4.72/4L. The dairy boards long set the retail price for 4L skim, 1%, 2% at $4.27 and homo at $5.13 which means the average of the 4 prices is...$4.49. I think Coyne is a fool in his optimism.

I honestly don't think there is any benefit to be had for me as a consumer because US prices are actually higher than in Canada after conversion. The blog you posted noted as such - specifically, pasta 4x the price of Canada. Would love some additional numbers if you have run across some already. However the blog also said:
And so a liter of milk in Texas today costs in Canadian dollars 59¢, while in Quebec it is $1.80, almost three times the price.
A pound of cheddar cheese is US $5 and US 8.32 in Canada which is 40% more expensive.
1L milk = $1.07 when bought as 4L in Ontario, and a pound of cheddar cheese...well 400g extra old goes on for $3.99, true last week true this week, which is $4.53/lb on a premium (aged) product.

Coyne suggests that milk protections could be given up to solve the softwood lumber dispute forever and...well, lol. Forever until next time. How quickly that will be forgotten.

Also protecting Canada's industry means protecting small-scale producers in favour of corporate behemoths. It means choosing safety and humane treatment over profits. People are already willing to pay $9.99/4L for ethical and specialty milk. If people can do that, the product is not expensive as it is wrt people's budgets.

I don't know why it is so important to make out trading partners happy as if we are some kind of abused woman.

I read that article about the Chobani previously and smh. We are supposed to base policy on the need for a 4-year-old to get whatever junk food her simple brain desires? Surely there are more important things in life. Also I totally disagree that there are no enough Greek yogurt options on the market when I am assaulted by Authentikos and Oikos battling ads very day on TV; when PC rolled out line after line of Greek yogurt products; when the highly esteemed Liberte has been producing such for decades...I suggest to the 4-year-old that they switch to Liberte and be astonished. We have plenty of fantastic brands here on the Canadian market and Cosh just shows ignorance and a lack of will to out-negotiate a 4-year-old let alone the US.

Anyone who is shocked at a quota fee of $25k per cow just doesn't understand that the agricultural industry *in general* is one of the most expensive to invest in; the inputs required to produce food, by seed, by animal, whatever are regularly in the 100's of thousands of dollars. Is that a good reason to hand it all over to the corporations? Should banks stop lending to the family farm (and making a killing off them, of course)? Removing quotas will not eliminate the fact that farming is a damned expensive venture that is destined to keep you in debt for most of your life.

Are you in Quebec? It seems the prices there are a little nasty. Maybe this is more of a Quebec-only issue because I am not having a problem with the price of (quality) milk and cheese here. I'm also offended by the guy who used that good German word "dreck" (dirt) to describe Canadian cheese. We have a hell of a lot of award winners and more variation in the types of cheeses produced here than ever before. There was a dairy board promotion (save $3 wub 2) coupon on cheese and I was all over Canadain cheese in the last few months and honestly I would be able to cope if all we could eat was domestic stuff like Oka and Costello.

EDIT: and I am just going to add that milk prices were at record highs in the US in the beginning of 2014. Are we going to celebrate that as well or only when prices (temporarily) bottom out?
Sr. Member
Feb 22, 2016
630 posts
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lecale wrote:
Apr 20th, 2017 7:59 pm
*bullshit snipped*
Cartels and price fixing, and worst yet, tariff walls to protect cartels and fixed prices cannot ever be justified. Period.
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Nov 15, 2008
3250 posts
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EastGTARedFlagger wrote:
Apr 20th, 2017 10:33 pm
Cartels and price fixing, and worst yet, tariff walls to protect cartels and fixed prices cannot ever be justified. Period.
I read every one of your articles and you give me that?

But where is the benefit to you as consumer, as you have been harping about? I was reading the LA times just now and they were advertising milk on a popup at $2.89/gallon

Converted to 4L = $2.97 converted to $CDN = $4.00. The wingnuts are promising me a savings of 50-66%. Where is it? I am seeing a 6% savings. And...three years ago the reverse was true, the US had peak prices.

So get rid of supply management, reintroduce all sorts of problems so I can save 6% one year and pay more the next?

I think your entire argument is hollow.

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