Automotive

TTC has announced plans to switch to electric buses

  • Last Updated:
  • Nov 12th, 2017 1:11 am
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UrbanPoet wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 2:01 pm
Whats wrong with those hybrid electric buses? Hybrid's have optimal efficiency in city traffic!
More than half (I think it's actually 90% now)'s hybrid systems have failed. They all had massive issues during the first 3 years and were always in the shop. When the warranties were up they just disabled the system. They actually get less mileage than the regular diesels because of the extraelectric motors and batteries they drag around. If you look around there aren't too many of them in service.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2008/1 ... litch.html
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UrbanPoet wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 2:01 pm
Whats wrong with those hybrid electric buses? Hybrid's have optimal efficiency in city traffic!
Electric buses are more efficient and less complicated so should be more reliable.
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engineered wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 2:14 pm
Electric buses are more efficient and less complicated so should be more reliable.
And we can actually afford to operate them since Wynne decide to burden our children with our hydro infrastructure costs in exchange for lower rates?
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tebore wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 2:17 pm
And we can actually afford to operate them since Wynne decide to burden our children with our hydro infrastructure costs in exchange for lower rates?
I wonder if the TTC pays market rate for electricity?
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engineered wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 2:14 pm
Electric buses are more efficient and less complicated so should be more reliable.
Im not sure how the mechanics are in those buses.
I've seen some cities with buses hooked up to electric lines like the street cars. Except they can change lanes!
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Nov 8, 2017
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engineered wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 2:01 pm
What's your great plan to get more cars through Toronto? Newsflash, it isn't going to happen, so quit moaning and accept transit. The future is removing cars from the road and reducing pollution. Soon enough only electric cars will be allowed downtown.
The future of transit should be high capacity fixed lines with Uber like automated vehicles to get you to the last mile home.
You clearly don't use transit for commuting so of course you're biased. Otherwise you'd be happy to spend 20min on a subway vs 2 hours in a car.
The TTC does suck compared to other cities' transit, but that doesn't mean transit is bad. It just needs to be done better and should be funded better (and run more efficiently (ie. remove the union's power).

Anyhow, you should be happy that so many people take transit, allowing those of us that do to drive around with less traffic. Can you imagine if everyone on transit suddenly started driving? There would be no parking, and you'd be inching along at 1kph everywhere.
Like you I only use TTC to get around town when I'm drunk.

Honestly, we should do away with the Green Belt, open up land for development, and build less dense housing communities where people have more space to move around. Decentralize, democratize, and give people room to live a decent life. Few people want to live in intensely dense situations, instead of building another office highrise downtown let's build an office park north of Maple or north in Stoufville. Get people out of each others' armpits. That's part of the solution. We should reclaim the 407, cancel the contract where it was sold off, and turn it into a freeway. Some of the urban planners we have today are stuck in 1850 and don't think people should need to walk more than 1km in any direction for their entire life. Modernity means we like to move around and be connected, we're not in 1850 anymore.

I'm well aware that TTC does an efficient job of getting drunks around at midnight (In my youth I smelled plenty of vomit on the buses from these outstanding people you speak of), but that has nothing to do with anything really. I've never said we should get rid of transit, but we should stop focusing all transportation dollars into transit. Eglinton LRT is going to cost what, $7 billion dollars? It is a fixed line serving a limited corridor within the city. They could have just repaved Eglinton, re-worked and replaced every signal along the route, generated a more sexy look by building vegetation and landscaping, and purchased a series of articulated buses to serve the corridor for a fraction of the cost. Articulated buses could move 50,000-100k riders a day around Eglinton Avenue. They are extremely versatile. Why was there a need to build expensive, fixed route steel wheels on steel rails? No case was ever presented that showed me it was needed or required. But $7 billion plus over-runs later, its being done. Traffic will mostly be unchanged afterwards.

Why are we spending so much on lines that produce so little? I'm not against transit, I'm for smarter spending of our dollars and increasing the look of our city. Street-scaping and improving traffic flow should be higher on the agenda. And instead of projects like Eglinton, they should just start running GO trains every half hour on every line for people that need longer distance commutes with reliable schedules. We've already got a rail system, use it more productively.

Instead of buying more diesel GO trains, the current Ontario government is looking to spend tens of billions to electrify GO corridors. That could be used to redesign the 401 and improve traffic flow and redesign city streets for better flow AND simultaneously purchase more diesel GO trains to provide regular service, AND to simultaneously buy more articulated buses to allow for transit usage.

Every time I hear a transit geek start spouting off transit crap I gag a little. Few people actually prefer buses, its actually nice to own a car. Who really wants to ride a train to work with people farting and coughing and blowing their nose into the seats (yes, I've seen it happen).

I can't wait for Patrick Brown to clean up the current mess at the provincial level in Ontario, he has my support so far, largely because liberals keep forcing everyone to use transit in Toronto and have no plans to invest into traffic flow. That's far more important to me than, say, cultural social issues. When Wynne is defeated, it will be a great day for drivers in Ontario. I'll have a glass of champaigne waiting for the day of the election when Wynne is crushed out of office. I supported the McGuinty liberals back over a decade ago, but with what they've done on transportation I look forward to their defeat. They've been tragically spending tens of billions on wasted public transit ideas instead of actually providing relief to this great city and region. Yet this city votes for Wynne. Go figure...
Last edited by ConsumerBran on Nov 10th, 2017 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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It's hard to imagine increasing urban sprawl in the GTA. Even if you did, that would only make commuting worse as you have more people driving and driving further. Building more dense housing is actually the solution.

I didn't say TTC was good at moving drunks, I said that's all I've used it for. TTC is actually much more efficient at moving commuters.

I do enjoy my private car but if I had to commute 1hr+ in a car I'd rather take a smelly subway for half the time. That's a lot of lost time in your life.

I'm all for beautifying our streets but that doesn't help with traffic.

I don't believe there's a way to redesign the 401 to make it more efficient. How do you plan to improve city streets? Take peoples' houses and knock them down to make more room? You'd also have to knock down more houses to make more parking lots. An insane amount of real-estate in major cities is devoted to parking, and there still isn't enough.

If you lived near a GO train route I'm sure you'd appreciate the cleaner air from electric trains. I agree that GO trains should run more frequently and reliably.

Do you actually know anyone that commutes on the TTC? I have many friends that do and they were happy to get rid of the their cars and use the TTC. It saves them a ton of money, time, plus they can do something productive instead of driving.
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Nov 8, 2017
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All I can say is that I spend less time driving to work than a bus or rail ever would take, because I commute more than a few kilometers. Transit would waste much more of my life if I had to take it.
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ConsumerBran wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 4:11 pm
Honestly, we should do away with the Green Belt, open up land for development, and build less dense housing communities where people have more space to move around. Decentralize, democratize, and give people room to live a decent life. Few people want to live in intensely dense situations, instead of building another office highrise downtown let's build an office park north of Maple or north in Stoufville. Get people out of each others' armpits. That's part of the solution. We should reclaim the 407, cancel the contract where it was sold off, and turn it into a freeway. Some of the urban planners we have today are stuck in 1850 and don't think people should need to walk more than 1km in any direction for their entire life. Modernity means we like to move around and be connected, we're not in 1850 anymore.

I'm well aware that TTC does an efficient job of getting drunks around at midnight (In my youth I smelled plenty of vomit on the buses from these outstanding people you speak of), but that has nothing to do with anything really. I've never said we should get rid of transit, but we should stop focusing all transportation dollars into transit. Eglinton LRT is going to cost what, $7 billion dollars? It is a fixed line serving a limited corridor within the city. They could have just repaved Eglinton, re-worked and replaced every signal along the route, generated a more sexy look by building vegetation and landscaping, and purchased a series of articulated buses to serve the corridor for a fraction of the cost. Articulated buses could move 50,000-100k riders a day around Eglinton Avenue. They are extremely versatile. Why was there a need to build expensive, fixed route steel wheels on steel rails? No case was ever presented that showed me it was needed or required. But $7 billion plus over-runs later, its being done. Traffic will mostly be unchanged afterwards.

Why are we spending so much on lines that produce so little? I'm not against transit, I'm for smarter spending of our dollars and increasing the look of our city. Street-scaping and improving traffic flow should be higher on the agenda. And instead of projects like Eglinton, they should just start running GO trains every half hour on every line for people that need longer distance commutes with reliable schedules. We've already got a rail system, use it more productively.

Instead of buying more diesel GO trains, the current Ontario government is looking to spend tens of billions to electrify GO corridors. That could be used to redesign the 401 and improve traffic flow and redesign city streets for better flow AND simultaneously purchase more diesel GO trains to provide regular service, AND to simultaneously buy more articulated buses to allow for transit usage.

Every time I hear a transit geek start spouting off transit crap I gag a little. Few people actually prefer buses, its actually nice to own a car. Who really wants to ride a train to work with people farting and coughing and blowing their nose into the seats (yes, I've seen it happen).

I can't wait for Patrick Brown to clean up the current mess at the provincial level in Ontario, he has my support so far, largely because liberals keep forcing everyone to use transit in Toronto and have no plans to invest into traffic flow. That's far more important to me than, say, cultural social issues. When Wynne is defeated, it will be a great day for drivers in Ontario. I'll have a glass of champaigne waiting for the day of the election when Wynne is crushed out of office...
Suburban north american thinking.

They tried exactly what you mentioned...in california. The king of car culture. They have highways 20 lanes wide.

They still have dibilitating traffic congestion.
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tebore wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 2:10 pm
More than half (I think it's actually 90% now)'s hybrid systems have failed. They all had massive issues during the first 3 years and were always in the shop. When the warranties were up they just disabled the system. They actually get less mileage than the regular diesels because of the extraelectric motors and batteries they drag around. If you look around there aren't too many of them in service.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2008/1 ... litch.html
engineered wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 2:14 pm
Electric buses are more efficient and less complicated so should be more reliable.
Ohh that makes more sense.
I just thought the system works great on a toyota prius... if they could only build a prius that seats/stands 40 people. Lol
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Nov 8, 2017
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Somewhere in Ontario
I believe in an all of the above strategy. You can live your urban ideal, but most of us do drive. Most people in greater Toronto take pride in our massive highway system and it gets us from point A to B much more quickly and efficiently than transit does. I vote with my dollars, and I'd rather drive to work in comfort. Why is this a problem for some people? I'll fund you a bus, I'm not against transit, but I want my cake and cookies too.

Isn't that what it should be about? Choice?

And this is why the Wynne government is toast. She's lost the 905, and people like me, and we did support the McGuinty Liberals in previous eras. The Liberals have failed Ontario and its time for change. It has nothing to do with social issues. I'm glad we elected a female premier, I'm glad she's a sexual minority. Congrats. Now build me some better damn highways and spend more thriftly on transportation, please. We're not getting that, which is more important than these social issues.

We need $5 billion in investment into rebuilding the 401 and its ailing intersections now. We need to cancel the contract on the 407 now. We need highway improvements. But that's another topic for another day.
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ConsumerBran wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 4:29 pm
I believe in an all of the above strategy. You can live your urban ideal, but most of us do drive. Most people in greater Toronto take pride in our massive highway system and it gets us from point A to B much more quickly and efficiently than transit does. I vote with my dollars, and I'd rather drive to work in comfort. Why is this a problem for some people? I'll fund you a bus, I'm not against transit, but I want my cake and cookies too.

Isn't that what it should be about? Choice?

And this is why the Wynne government is toast. She's lost the 905, and people like me, and we did support the McGuinty Liberals in previous eras. The Liberals have failed Ontario and its time for change. It has nothing to do with social issues. I'm glad we elected a female premier, I'm glad she's a sexual minority. Congrats. Now build me some better damn highways and spend more thriftly on transportation, please. We're not getting that, which is more important than these social issues.

We need $5 billion in investment into rebuilding the 401 and its ailing intersections now. We need to cancel the contract on the 407 now. We need highway improvements. But that's another topic for another day.
Right, so you should be very happy that many people are off the roads on transit so that there is room for us to drive. You say you only drive a couple KM where there's no traffic, so of course in your world transit doesn't make sense. Many people's car commute is in traffic and a horrible experience.

I've never heard of anyone "take pride" in our highways. People mostly moan about the poor drivers and bad traffic. You can't say you'll fund peoples buses when you want to take funding away and put it into needlessly rebuilding highways. Now you're back peddling your earlier claims.
You should talk to some from California about their massive highway system. Sitting in traffic on their HWY 405 is a common joke.

As for the 401, they probably spend more continuously rebuilding it in the same span of time as the $7 billion Eglington LRT. You still haven't explained how rebuilding something that's constantly being rebuilt is going to make it better.
You want more highway built but less spending.... how exactly would that work?

In a couple decades none of us will even be driving. Some autonomous electric taxi/bus will pick you up and take you to your destination.

Now you're trying to needlessly turn this into a political discussion. Traffic, cars, transit are not isolated to single party. They're all idiots who don't know how to run anything. Remember it was the Harris Tory gov't who sold the 407 for $3 billion when it was actually valued at $12 billion.
https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark ... -cohn.html
Originally the 407 was to pay for itself and become a free public highway in approximately 30 years. The Tory government passed a law allowing the government to sell it off.
The conditions of the sale allow the new owners to set whatever toll rates it wants for the next 99 years.
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ohnabatko wrote:
Nov 9th, 2017 11:02 pm
I suggest they should order from Bombardier and the latter to make in the Thunder bay plant. 2040 will be very realistic date for first few...
afaik, Bombardier does not build electric buses.
Bombardier does have technology that other bus manufacturers can integrate into their designs.

PRIMOVE for e-buses
For electric buses, the PRIMOVE package represents a major leap forward by creating a competitive alternative to diesel and hybrid systems. It offers a unique combination of fast inductive charging, light-weight batteries and a fully integrated propulsion system.
from http://primove.bombardier.com/applications/e-bus.html

BOMBARDIER PRIMOVE Technology Enters Service on Scandinavia's First Inductively Charged Bus Line
- Hybrid bus equipped with Bombardier's innovative PRIMOVE inductive charging system reduces emmissions in Sodertalje, Sweden
- PRIMOVE charging system tops up batteries of eco-friendly bus in minutes

http://www.marketwired.com/press-releas ... 181382.htm


The TTC wants 30 buses by March 31, 2019. TTC staff recommends these buses be from 3 different suppliers.

The report recommends dividing the order for 30 buses between up to three different suppliers. That would allow the agency to conduct what it says would be the first long-term, head-to-head comparison of different electric bus models.
The TTC would measure each vehicle’s reliability, battery range, operating and maintenance costs, and customer experience in order to inform future, larger purchases. The exercise also would help other transit agencies hoping to adopt the technology.

from http://www.metronews.ca/news/toronto/20 ... by-20.html

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