Automotive

TTC has announced plans to switch to electric buses

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  • Nov 12th, 2017 1:11 am
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Nov 8, 2017
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Somewhere in Ontario
engineered wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 4:57 pm
Right, so you should be very happy that many people are off the roads on transit so that there is room for us to drive. You say you only drive a couple KM where there's no traffic, so of course in your world transit doesn't make sense. Many people's car commute is in traffic and a horrible experience.

I've never heard of anyone "take pride" in our highways. People mostly moan about the poor drivers and bad traffic. You can't say you'll fund peoples buses when you want to take funding away and put it into needlessly rebuilding highways. Now you're back peddling your earlier claims.
You should talk to some from California about their massive highway system. Sitting in traffic on their HWY 405 is a common joke.

As for the 401, they probably spend more continuously rebuilding it in the same span of time as the $7 billion Eglington LRT. You still haven't explained how rebuilding something that's constantly being rebuilt is going to make it better.
You want more highway built but less spending.... how exactly would that work?

In a couple decades none of us will even be driving. Some autonomous electric taxi/bus will pick you up and take you to your destination.

Now you're trying to needlessly turn this into a political discussion. Traffic, cars, transit are not isolated to single party. They're all idiots who don't know how to run anything. Remember it was the Harris Tory gov't who sold the 407 for $3 billion when it was actually valued at $12 billion.
https://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark ... -cohn.html
Originally the 407 was to pay for itself and become a free public highway in approximately 30 years. The Tory government passed a law allowing the government to sell it off.
The conditions of the sale allow the new owners to set whatever toll rates it wants for the next 99 years.
A few points: I hear more people moan about the TTC than those who moan about highways. Its true, highway traffic can be miserable. I'd rather be in a car in traffic misery than armpit to armpit in a subway car. And yes, many people are proud of our highway system in Ontario. We would like to see it expanded. And yes, I'm aware of the Harris-Hwy 407 sell-off. That's part of why I didn't support the Harris government and was glad McGuinty gave them the boot many years ago. I was a part of that, I supported the downfall of the Conservatives in the early 00's. And for different reasons, why I'll be glad to see Wynne go. Her time has passed, they've had a chance to show what they're about. You're speaking with a political independent and someone who doesn't align with party. Many of us exist.

I've been to Los Angeles, its functions well considering there's 18 million people between LA and Riverside. They have a terrific highway system and I'd hate to see an LA without it. That's kind of unrelated to Toronto.

Yes, I bought up politics. Sorry if you took offence. These discussions are inherently political because transit and highways and streets are funded by government. The discussion is intertwined. I didn't back-peddle any comments, what I was saying is that I support transit so long as its reasonably priced. I don't support $20 billion here, $10 billion there for transit boondoggles. This is especially true when alternative transit options exist in the tens or hundreds of millions. We're talking about the Wynne-Metrolinx-transit industry wasting tens of billions here, its not a small issue. Ontario is being bankrupted by these projects, and they sold off Hydro One to fund only a small part of it. This is an endless financial disaster for the people of Ontario. So yes, politics is involved.

P.S. the concept of no one driving? Well, in the 1960's the Jetsons had some people convinced we'd all be flying aircraft to work as well. We'll see if that is actually practical. I have no doubt the technology will be there, but we're having problems getting everyone into modern housing and jobs that pay enough. I have my doubts we're going to live in this world of no cars that you envision. Interesting to listen to, however. ;)
Last edited by ConsumerBran on Nov 10th, 2017 6:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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ConsumerBran wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 4:11 pm
Honestly, we should do away with the Green Belt, open up land for development, and build less dense housing communities where people have more space to move around. Decentralize, democratize, and give people room to live a decent life. Few people want to live in intensely dense situations, instead of building another office highrise downtown let's build an office park north of Maple or north in Stoufville. Get people out of each others' armpits. That's part of the solution. We should reclaim the 407, cancel the contract where it was sold off, and turn it into a freeway. Some of the urban planners we have today are stuck in 1850 and don't think people should need to walk more than 1km in any direction for their entire life. Modernity means we like to move around and be connected, we're not in 1850 anymore.

I'm well aware that TTC does an efficient job of getting drunks around at midnight (In my youth I smelled plenty of vomit on the buses from these outstanding people you speak of), but that has nothing to do with anything really. I've never said we should get rid of transit, but we should stop focusing all transportation dollars into transit. Eglinton LRT is going to cost what, $7 billion dollars? It is a fixed line serving a limited corridor within the city. They could have just repaved Eglinton, re-worked and replaced every signal along the route, generated a more sexy look by building vegetation and landscaping, and purchased a series of articulated buses to serve the corridor for a fraction of the cost. Articulated buses could move 50,000-100k riders a day around Eglinton Avenue. They are extremely versatile. Why was there a need to build expensive, fixed route steel wheels on steel rails? No case was ever presented that showed me it was needed or required. But $7 billion plus over-runs later, its being done. Traffic will mostly be unchanged afterwards.

Why are we spending so much on lines that produce so little? I'm not against transit, I'm for smarter spending of our dollars and increasing the look of our city. Street-scaping and improving traffic flow should be higher on the agenda. And instead of projects like Eglinton, they should just start running GO trains every half hour on every line for people that need longer distance commutes with reliable schedules. We've already got a rail system, use it more productively.

Instead of buying more diesel GO trains, the current Ontario government is looking to spend tens of billions to electrify GO corridors. That could be used to redesign the 401 and improve traffic flow and redesign city streets for better flow AND simultaneously purchase more diesel GO trains to provide regular service, AND to simultaneously buy more articulated buses to allow for transit usage.

Every time I hear a transit geek start spouting off transit crap I gag a little. Few people actually prefer buses, its actually nice to own a car. Who really wants to ride a train to work with people farting and coughing and blowing their nose into the seats (yes, I've seen it happen).

I can't wait for Patrick Brown to clean up the current mess at the provincial level in Ontario, he has my support so far, largely because liberals keep forcing everyone to use transit in Toronto and have no plans to invest into traffic flow. That's far more important to me than, say, cultural social issues. When Wynne is defeated, it will be a great day for drivers in Ontario. I'll have a glass of champaigne waiting for the day of the election when Wynne is crushed out of office. I supported the McGuinty liberals back over a decade ago, but with what they've done on transportation I look forward to their defeat. They've been tragically spending tens of billions on wasted public transit ideas instead of actually providing relief to this great city and region. Yet this city votes for Wynne. Go figure...
Lets cut down everything that is green while we are at it......what a joke. Cities are the future and public transit is the way home. If you don't like it you always have the option to live in Saskatchewan. Within 10 years travel into Toronto will be massively limited and only those with green cars or permits will be getting in via their own vehicles.
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ConsumerBran wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 4:29 pm
I believe in an all of the above strategy. You can live your urban ideal, but most of us do drive. Most people in greater Toronto take pride in our massive highway system and it gets us from point A to B much more quickly and efficiently than transit does. I vote with my dollars, and I'd rather drive to work in comfort. Why is this a problem for some people? I'll fund you a bus, I'm not against transit, but I want my cake and cookies too.

Isn't that what it should be about? Choice?

And this is why the Wynne government is toast. She's lost the 905, and people like me, and we did support the McGuinty Liberals in previous eras. The Liberals have failed Ontario and its time for change. It has nothing to do with social issues. I'm glad we elected a female premier, I'm glad she's a sexual minority. Congrats. Now build me some better damn highways and spend more thriftly on transportation, please. We're not getting that, which is more important than these social issues.

We need $5 billion in investment into rebuilding the 401 and its ailing intersections now. We need to cancel the contract on the 407 now. We need highway improvements. But that's another topic for another day.
No one is going to build your highways...
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Nov 8, 2017
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Somewhere in Ontario
engineered wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 2:01 pm
What's your great plan to get more cars through Toronto? Newsflash, it isn't going to happen, so quit moaning and accept transit. The future is removing cars from the road and reducing pollution. Soon enough only electric cars will be allowed downtown.
The future of transit should be high capacity fixed lines with Uber like automated vehicles to get you to the last mile home.
You clearly don't use transit for commuting so of course you're biased. Otherwise you'd be happy to spend 20min on a subway vs 2 hours in a car.
The TTC does suck compared to other cities' transit, but that doesn't mean transit is bad. It just needs to be done better and should be funded better (and run more efficiently (ie. remove the union's power).

Anyhow, you should be happy that so many people take transit, allowing those of us that do to drive around with less traffic. Can you imagine if everyone on transit suddenly started driving? There would be no parking, and you'd be inching along at 1kph everywhere.
Like you I only use TTC to get around town when I'm drunk.
^There in lies the point. You literally told me to shut up and use transit. That's not choice. I also support electric cars, I think they are great if the price comes down and charge stations become common.

Since you focused on my political statements, let me say what I'm for: I'm for affordable, effective transit solutions. The TTC runs better than most US systems, so I'm not sure its a miserable system, but transit in general is less appealing. Transit attracts a demographic that is usually younger, often its less income, and you're packed like sardines in a can with people coughing, farting, sneezing, and its not as comfortable as an automobile. Second to all that, you're dealing with a system of fixed routes, endless transfers to get to longer destinations, etc. The problem with the TTC is the same problem transit everywhere suffers from, namely what I just mentioned.

I'm not against transit, I'm against the current plans to spend 90% of transport investment in it when there are other needs. Especially when we need to reinvest into rebuilding our roads, bridges, and highway infrastructure.

You have projected that it takes 2 hours in a car vs 20 mins in a subway. My experience has been the opposite. If I took transit to work, it'd be 1 hour and 20 minutes not including the walk to the nearest stations from my home and then to get into the office. Instead, even with 401 rush hour hell, its usually 40 minutes by car. I think you have your stats reversed my friend. Transit takes longer almost every trip. But do I think we should run competent, affordable transit services? Yes, for those that prefer that we should have it available. I believe in choice, but balanced choices. Not forced to use transit because planners keep shrinking traffic flow and street sizes.
Last edited by ConsumerBran on Nov 10th, 2017 6:31 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Nov 8, 2017
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Somewhere in Ontario
QTheNukes wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 6:19 pm
Lets cut down everything that is green while we are at it......what a joke. Cities are the future and public transit is the way home. If you don't like it you always have the option to live in Saskatchewan. Within 10 years travel into Toronto will be massively limited and only those with green cars or permits will be getting in via their own vehicles.
Where did I say cut down everything that is green? You do realize Ontario is huge, no? Whether the Green Belt survives or not has no bearing on tree development in Ontario. The Green Belt certainly is not a boreal forest. I support decentralization, we need more people moving into other regions. I wouldn't mind seeing a city of a million on the shores of Lake Superior. I wouldn't mind seeing a city of a million in the Clay Belt region. There's no reason why we need to only focus on everyone moving into just Toronto.

I suppose you've never been in Sasketchewan. Saskatoon is a lovely place, actually.
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ConsumerBran wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 7:05 pm
Where did I say cut down everything that is green? You do realize Ontario is huge, no? Whether the Green Belt survives or not has no bearing on tree development in Ontario. The Green Belt certainly is not a boreal forest. I support decentralization, we need more people moving into other regions. I wouldn't mind seeing a city of a million on the shores of Lake Superior. I wouldn't mind seeing a city of a million in the Clay Belt region. There's no reason why we need to only focus on everyone moving into just Toronto.

I suppose you've never been in Sasketchewan. Saskatoon is a lovely place, actually.
My point is the world needs trees, and it is not just the Amazon that has an issue protecting their green spaces. Saskatoon I am sure is lovely, but absent vast natural forests.
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Somewhere in Ontario
North of Saskatoon as you get to Prince Albert it turns into boreal forest. Canada's boreal forests are as large as the Amazon is, for what its worth.
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Sep 16, 2004
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Toronto
Unfortunately the landscape is becoming a bit more complex, and both the general population and politics are not keeping up in their levels of sophistication making the necessary changes.
I was surprised to see recently in Copenhagen how great the transit systems(both subway and heavy rail similar to GO) built in the 70's were so far ahead of TTC.
What I also noticed however is the numerous amount of cyclists in the city and how empty and underused their transit systems were.
There were some larger cars, trucks etc int he city but generally the majority of the cars were also very small and not mnay seemed to be in use on the roads in the city limits.
Certainly there are barriers to mass immigration here but it seemed to me that for a long time in building, the highly taxed citizenry were getting good value for money in terms of infrastructure and it's upkeep compared to here in Canada.
Here in Canada our lackluster politicians are more concerned about benefiting themselves and their cronies than actually serving.
IMO Metrolinx is one such venture by our current liberals to funnel funds and jobs to Cronies.
It may be a reason we see transit being pushed harder and other things like more roads and highways taking a backseat.
Urban sprawl has gotten out of hand as people want bigger cheaper housing outside city limits while their jobs remain in the city but housing is much smaller and more expensive.
Taxpayers apart from not getting value for their money due to corrupt practices and wastage already see themselves as overtaxed.
The pie has to be shared a different way as the dynamics of things have changed.
Necessary services have increased in costs and unions and other bargainers have demanded greater shares.
Take the Medical Industry for example.
It's left less for other things like roads that has nobody to stand up and fight for it.
People's attitudes and education levels need to change about stuff too and they must not live in the past but adapt to the future.
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some1not wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 1:30 pm
They had electric buses back in the 80's. The Bay St buses were electric that had over head wires like street cars it got power from. They had other routes as well, I just can't remember that far back!

So the drivers smoke breaks at Tim's will be a lot longer now as some Tim's already have quick charging stations!
yes they did. they had them on osington as well.. Not even that long ago. I remember it in the early/mid 90's.
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QTheNukes wrote:
Nov 11th, 2017 5:17 am
My point is the world needs trees, and it is not just the Amazon that has an issue protecting their green spaces. Saskatoon I am sure is lovely, but absent vast natural forests.
LOL ok. I don't think you realize how large Canada, USA, Russia, and China is.... and these places are loaded with trees and forests.
go pull up google maps /satellite and go explore if you don't believe....

just beause u dont seee forests next to a city, doesn't mean forest don't exist.
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ConsumerBran wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 6:31 pm

You have projected that it takes 2 hours in a car vs 20 mins in a subway. My experience has been the opposite. If I took transit to work, it'd be 1 hour and 20 minutes not including the walk to the nearest stations from my home and then to get into the office. Instead, even with 401 rush hour hell, its usually 40 minutes by car. Not in rush hour it can be done in 30 minutes flat. On a bad day where there are lots of accidents and or inclement weather it might be an hour... Still less than the best day with on-time transit services. I think you have your stats reversed my friend. Transit takes longer almost every trip. The transfers alone kill you. 10 minutes of walking around and waiting between one bus-subway or whatever connection absolutely kills transit's effectiveness, because you're dealing with a fixed route service. It will never be as good as the convenience and comfort the free flowing automobile allows for. I prefer no limits, not a fixed route service. The typical TTC rider belching, farting, sneezing, coughing the flu onto you, and occasional drug addict freaking out and shouting obscenities notwithstanding.
I agree.

Never has TTC been faster than driving your own car... The factors that are never included are A) Waiting for the service b) walking to the service... That is a huge value that is often left out. Unless you live and work by a subway station. in which case then that's the only time that it might be faster.
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Somewhere in Ontario
sirex wrote:
Nov 11th, 2017 11:49 am
I agree.

Never has TTC been faster than driving your own car... The factors that are never included are A) Waiting for the service b) walking to the service... That is a huge value that is often left out. Unless you live and work by a subway station. in which case then that's the only time that it might be faster.
I've learned in my life that debating with transit geeks is an endless, mindless practice. You can show surveys that people prefer the comfort of an automobile over the shouting drug addicts in a subway car, they pay no attention to facts. You can show them that highways, even 20 lanes ones, take a fraction of the cost to construct vs. these LRT and subway systems per kilometre, they have nothing to say about it. You can emphasize that one single transfer that takes 10 minutes waiting for a bus is so inefficient vs. a car, because you can literally drive half way through Toronto in 10 minutes in an automobile vs. standing at a bus stop, these people won't pay attention to it.

For reference Highway 407 ETR was built by the government, total costs (granted this is 1999 dollars, so inflation would change the numbers slightly) for the entire highway was built for $1.6 billion in raw construction capital. Over 50km of major highway construction capital costs between Burlington and Markham, all for about $2 billion. The one stop Scarborough Subway waste is going to be $3 to 4 billion for one stop serving a few thousand people a day. Eglinton LRT is going to be $7 billion and its mostly a useless line that serves an area where they could have used articulated buses and repaved the street to fix it up. There's $11 billion in total, complete waste from this incompetent government. We could have had several massive highway systems built in the GTA for that.
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engineered wrote:
Nov 10th, 2017 2:01 pm
What's your great plan to get more cars through Toronto? Newsflash, it isn't going to happen, so quit moaning and accept transit. The future is removing cars from the road and reducing pollution. Soon enough only electric cars will be allowed downtown.
The future of transit should be high capacity fixed lines with Uber like automated vehicles to get you to the last mile home.
You clearly don't use transit for commuting so of course you're biased. Otherwise you'd be happy to spend 20min on a subway vs 2 hours in a car.
The TTC does suck compared to other cities' transit, but that doesn't mean transit is bad. It just needs to be done better and should be funded better (and run more efficiently (ie. remove the union's power).

Anyhow, you should be happy that so many people take transit, allowing those of us that do to drive around with less traffic. Can you imagine if everyone on transit suddenly started driving? There would be no parking, and you'd be inching along at 1kph everywhere.
Like you I only use TTC to get around town when I'm drunk.
Im with you on everything you said.
I just wish the City was as onboard and actually prioritized transit instead of stupid bike lanes.
I see buses take forever to get to and from the curb to load and unload because bikes keep cutting between them and the sidewalk. The Yield law applies to you too bikes.

At this rate I'm willing to take dedicated street cars and dedicated bus lanes(at specific times) on certain streets (go a head picture it you know the streets I mean). Because our subway sucks during rush hour.
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Somewhere in Ontario
gh05t wrote:
Nov 11th, 2017 11:43 am
It's left less for other things like roads that has nobody to stand up and fight for it.
There's one thing about roads and highway infrastructure to be mentioned: they are largely self-maintaining. The upkeep and maintenance comes from gas and sales taxes related to fuel products. The cost of laying down pavement and street-scaping pales in comparison to these grand transit visions the central planners get wet thinking about. Your health care dollars aren't competing for roadway dollars.

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