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Saltywetguy wrote:
Jul 15th, 2017 9:19 pm
..........
There are some posts that I have created, that had a down vote or two for them.
.......

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But some posters, they down vote you for apparently not much of a reason...
.....
.......
Therein is the problem with the down vote system. You have no idea what the reason is because they have no reason to post it.
If someone would have to provide reasons for the down vote, at least the poster and even the down voter could discuss it or let it be.
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Pete_Coach wrote:
Jul 16th, 2017 9:41 am
Therein is the problem with the down vote system. You have no idea what the reason is because they have no reason to post it.
If someone would have to provide reasons for the down vote, at least the poster and even the down voter could discuss it or let it be.
You downvoted one of my personal opinion posts in this thread without explanation. I wasn't going to mention it, but now that you've emphasized the lack of reasons in doing so when doing so, I thought I would ask...

Did you disagree with my point? Was it an accident? Or were you simply trying to make a point about the voting system?

I'm not offended...but as a case in point, this is a great example.
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WorldIRC wrote:
Jul 16th, 2017 3:52 pm
You downvoted one of my personal opinion posts in this thread without explanation. I wasn't going to mention it, but now that you've emphasized the lack of reasons in doing so when doing so, I thought I would ask...

Did you disagree with my point? Was it an accident? Or were you simply trying to make a point about the voting system?

I'm not offended...but as a case in point, this is a great example.
Yes I did. I have also given you numerous up votes too.
I disagree with your statement "That being said, if you improve the quality of your posts, try to standout in the community as an asset, and try to overall be helpful around here"
I also said that "I have come to think of downvoting as relaying I do not agree with the post or, is factually incorrect,"

It is my point, that down votes mean nothing, produce nothing and does nothing for the great masses of RFDers so, why have it?

The fact that you have outed me as down voting one of your posts (not credited with the up votes on the numerous others though) brings up the issue again of what I think is a misuse of authority. You have done this before and people have questioned your ethics of doing that. We cannot see who down votes but you do and use that information to make some kind of point. Many, including myself have even posted asking who is down voting an innocuous post but we cannot find out, let alone let the entire community know. But you can and you do.
So yes, this is a great example...of what can happen with down votes. Revenge posts or down votes. I wish we all have the ability to out down voters like you seem to do.....or better yet, just do away with them entirely.
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Pete_Coach wrote:
Jul 16th, 2017 4:17 pm
Yes I did. I have also given you numerous up votes too.
I disagree with your statement "That being said, if you improve the quality of your posts, try to standout in the community as an asset, and try to overall be helpful around here"
I also said that "I have come to think of downvoting as relaying I do not agree with the post or, is factually incorrect,"

It is my point, that down votes mean nothing, produce nothing and does nothing for the great masses of RFDers so, why have it?

The fact that you have outed me as down voting one of your posts (not credited with the up votes on the numerous others though) brings up the issue again of what I think is a misuse of authority. You have done this before and people have questioned your ethics of doing that. We cannot see who down votes but you do and use that information to make some kind of point. Many, including myself have even posted asking who is down voting an innocuous post but we cannot find out, let alone let the entire community know. But you can and you do.
So yes, this is a great example...of what can happen with down votes. Revenge posts or down votes. I wish we all have the ability to out down voters like you seem to do.....or better yet, just do away with them entirely.
All I know about downvotes is the admins had a long-term strategy well beyond what has been implemented today. What has happened though is the way it has been implemented has basically blown up in their faces. I agree with your point on getting rid of downvotes or exposing them. That being said, I know that an action plan is something that @TomRFD is working on and he will likely be reporting back to everyone soon with a go-forward plan. Feedback provided in this thread is definitely being reviewed by the appropriate people.

As for your concerns about my "ethics", I'm not sure why you think I'm abusing my authority or why you think I'd conduct myself accordingly without permission from @TomRFD, but I assure you that is simply not the case here. I've mentioned before we are provided access to these tools as a means of effectively administrating and moderating the website. We use these tools to call out trolls, we use these tools to stimulate feedback and conversation, and in many other cases, we use these tools to make sure those that abuse the voting system are no longer able to do so. Using myself as an example may seem like a "conflicted" means of doing so, but rest assured, this is simply not the case. There are those that chronically downvote for no disclosed reason (since anyone can simply click downvote), and this is causing major concerns on the website for the community. There are other users that we use these tools on to settle other issues or disputes between other users of the website. We use the tools to moderate those that break rules, and we use the tools to weed out returned banned members that continue to violate our rules here on the site. In the context of this thread, I used my "authority" to call attention to your post, which I do agree with by the way, while using your specific downvote towards me as an example, since it was only a few posts earlier and in my recent memory. I did make point that I was not offended, but rather, curious as to your reasons in response to your post about those not providing feedback...aka, stimulating feedback & conversation. I apologize if you felt "targeted" but I would also remind you that over the last little while, you and I have also discussed a few matters over PM and I like to think I've been open with you in that environment. I apologize for not "calling out" the many upvotes you've also provided to myself and many others within the thread, but that was "off-topic" to the conversation going on.

As a quick side note on abuse of one's "authority", abusing my "authority" would be, for example:
1. Removing negative BST feedback issued against myself.
2. Finding reasons to delete BST posts that conflict with my own.
3. Deleting posts that I have a personal disagreement with.
4. Removing posts that are personally offensive to me but don't break the rules.
5. Removing downvotes against me (I don't have that ability, but that would be an example).
6. Removing posts that offer or discuss services that conflict with services I offer outside of RFD - in fact, I make it a point to not moderate those threads simply to avoid any inference of conflict of interest.
7. Warning, infracting, or banning those that I disagree with if rules are not being broken.
8. Using personal information on a user's profile outside the context of my administrative / moderation duties on RFD
9. Allowing friends or family to "skirt the rules" and turning a blind eye

I'm sure there are others, but I think you get the gist of where I'm going. I've received 25 downvotes on RFD, 2 were "exposed" in the other thread for reasons mentioned above (and that user is now in the Penalty Box for violation of other rules), and 1 in this thread, which we are discussing now. If you still believe I am violating any kind of ethical obligations that I have to the community, I am sure @TomRFD would be happy to discuss.

I hope this helps provide clarification and understanding of my positioning.
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WorldIRC wrote:
Jul 16th, 2017 4:42 pm
All I know about downvotes is the admins had a long-term strategy well beyond what has been implemented today. What has happened though is the way it has been implemented has basically blown up in their faces. I agree with your point on getting rid of downvotes or exposing them. That being said, I know that an action plan is something that @TomRFD is working on and he will likely be reporting back to everyone soon with a go-forward plan. Feedback provided in this thread is definitely being reviewed by the appropriate people.

As for your concerns about my "ethics", I'm not sure why you think I'm abusing my authority or why you think I'd conduct myself accordingly without permission from @TomRFD, but I assure you that is simply not the case here. I've mentioned before we are provided access to these tools as a means of effectively administrating and moderating the website. We use these tools to call out trolls, we use these tools to stimulate feedback and conversation, and in many other cases, we use these tools to make sure those that abuse the voting system are no longer able to do so. ........
In the context of this thread, I used my "authority" to call attention to your post, which I do agree with by the way, while using your specific downvote towards me as an example, since it was only a few posts earlier and in my recent memory. I did make point that I was not offended, .....I apologize if you felt "targeted" but I would also remind you that over the last little while, you and I have also discussed a few matters over PM and I like to think I've been open with you in that environment. I apologize for not "calling out" the many upvotes you've also provided to myself and many others within the thread, but that was "off-topic" to the conversation going on.

As a quick side note on abuse of one's "authority", ........

I hope this helps provide clarification and understanding of my positioning.
My only point is that you can see the downvotes, the only ones (as moderators) and we may have the same feeling or request for clarifications bit do not have the advantage of seeing who did it.
Yes, you and I did PM and we generally have good discussions and no animosity and I realize there was no intent to offend, and I did not take it that way. I do not reveal in public what those discussions are because they were "private"....as was my right to down vote (or I thought).
By questioning the ethics or abuse of authority, I meant that you can see who and then by telling the entire community you are doing something only you can do because of your position. We do not have that option or right. I think your privilege has been breached. I would certainly hope the @TomRFD would not have given blank cheque to all Mods to out any down voters as they choose?
No hard feelings, just discussion points.
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Pete_Coach wrote:
Jul 16th, 2017 5:37 pm
My only point is that you can see the downvotes, the only ones (as moderators) and we may have the same feeling or request for clarifications bit do not have the advantage of seeing who did it.
Yes, you and I did PM and we generally have good discussions and no animosity and I realize there was no intent to offend, and I did not take it that way. I do not reveal in public what those discussions are because they were "private"....as was my right to down vote (or I thought).
By questioning the ethics or abuse of authority, I meant that you can see who and then by telling the entire community you are doing something only you can do because of your position. We do not have that option or right. I think your privilege has been breached. I would certainly hope the @TomRFD would not have given blank cheque to all Mods to out any down voters as they choose?
No hard feelings, just discussion points.
Certainly no hard feelings here, I believe you and I agree on a lot when it comes to this stuff. I am happy to continue the discussion with yourself and the rest of the community. Again, I apologize if my "calling you out" came out as a breach or abuse of my authority. It was only done so in an effort to continue and respond to one of your posts which in itself, raised a great point about a fatal flaw in the downvoting system.

There are no blank cheques written to any of the mods or admins to "out downvoters as they choose" or other matters of administration. Any time we use our authority, it must certainly be justified. It is not always justified publicly (Tom and I speak often in private for example) but it is always intended to be justified. Just like when we issue infractions or ban users, we must always include reasons for taking such actions. Just like now when we remove posts or clean up threads, we must justify our actions in the thread or at least provide some kind of note stating what we've done. If you ever felt that any member of the moderation were abusing their powers or not justifying their actions accordingly (agreeing with their actions vs. justifying their actions, as a point of clarification), I would hope that you'd report it to Tom so he could investigate.

And finally, with your inability to see downvotes, which thus prevents you from being able to request clarification from those issuing the downvotes, I do agree this is a gap right now for the community. Hopefully the community will be able to get the downvote list opened up by the admins, or downvotes removed all together, or some kind of hybrid solution or enhancement to the current program. If you feel that you're being specifically targeted, Tom does have the tools and resources to assist on a per-case basis; however, he likely needs to be very careful with the information shared as, unlike in my earlier examples, the information could be used to publicly shame users, start a flame war, or increase tensions on the forum.
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Bit of a side request--I would like, if possible, to be able to see an overview of all posts I've upvoted (and/downvoted, but seeing my downvotes is less useful), say, in one's profile. Public or Private. I have upvoted what I consider to be informative posts and it'd be cool to be able to revisit later without subscribing to an entire thread.

@WorldIRC Thanks for taking the time to explain your perspectives and that there is a review/assessment being done at this time. It looked like to me there was a wall of silence against the community's critiques.
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peanutz wrote:
Jul 16th, 2017 7:01 pm
Bit of a side request--I would like, if possible, to be able to see an overview of all posts I've upvoted (and/downvoted, but seeing my downvotes is less useful), say, in one's profile. Public or Private. I have upvoted what I consider to be informative posts and it'd be cool to be able to revisit later without subscribing to an entire thread.

@WorldIRC Thanks for taking the time to explain your perspectives and that there is a review/assessment being done at this time. It looked like to me there was a wall of silence against the community's critiques.
Great suggestion as right now I can only see what posts of mine have been upvoted (and downvoted because I am a mod). Would be great if we could see the reverse as not even the mods can see that (likely not written into the base code for the voting system).

I know the admins are often busy with new projects, but they definitely read these conversations. As well, we do have many behind the scenes conversations with Tom with feedback for enhancements across the website. The voting system is one of many conversations happening.
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WorldIRC wrote:
Jul 16th, 2017 7:13 pm
Great suggestion as right now I can only see what posts of mine have been upvoted (and downvoted because I am a mod). Would be great if we could see the reverse as not even the mods can see that (likely not written into the base code for the voting system).
Right. Just an "extra", not really necessary request. If it's a bit of work to implement, then disregard, as there are going to be other efforts more worthwhile to everyone's experience here.
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@WorldIRC thank you for talking to the RFD administration about making the downvotes public. I think that is a great idea.
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SickBeast wrote:
Jul 16th, 2017 9:32 pm
@WorldIRC thank you for talking to the RFD administration about making the downvotes public. I think that is a great idea.
Ditto.

Also kudos to WorldIRC and Pete_Coach for demonstrating that it's possible to hold a respectful, civil discussion about a contentious issue.
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bylo wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 7:17 am
Ditto.

Also kudos to WorldIRC and Pete_Coach for demonstrating that it's possible to hold a respectful, civil discussion about a contentious issue.
I just hope that the right people address the feedback and hopefully take it into account when the program is reviewed.
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I have one concern with making downvotes public, and that's the potential for backlash, or flame wars on the site. What are other's thoughts on opening up the list vs. removing downvotes all together and avoiding that situation?

The other thought that came to mind was keeping the downvotes private but removing the total downvote count from a user's profile, therefore removing any associated "stigma" with downvotes.
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My choice would be to get rid of downvoting altogether. I have never used it and I don't think it does much good. It might have been started out with the best intentions, but it has resulted in some members posting less because they don't want to get downvoted for frivolous reasons. Alternately, there are members who hardly, if ever, post, and all they do is downvote. That is not right, imo.
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Mars2012 wrote:
Jul 17th, 2017 10:03 am
My choice would be to get rid of downvoting altogether. I have never used it and I don't think it does much good. It might have been started out with the best intentions, but it has resulted in some members posting less because they don't want to get downvoted for frivolous reasons. Alternately, there are members who hardly, if ever, post, and all they do is downvote. That is not right, imo.
I do believe overall, this is the best option.
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