Entrepreneurship & Small Business

Web Design: Do you really "get what you pay for?"

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Oct 27, 2004
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Web Design: Do you really "get what you pay for?"

Me and some colleagues are trying to get a "Web 2.0" videogame business off the ground. We have an idea we think will generate some significant revenue, but we have zero funding to get it started.

I've tried using Craigslist to find a web designer who will do the initial website for no charge, with the understanding that once we get to the money stage, there will be more than enough to afford to pay a monthly retainer for web services.

I found a guy who I initially thought was great: very enthusiastic and we seemed to hit it off. He was OK with doing the work for free, and believed we had a concept that would work. He told me he could get the relatively simple (no flash or anything fancy) site up in two weeks. It's now been almost 6 weeks, and the guy has disappeared after doing 2/3 of the job.

I reposted the ad to Craigslist, but it got flagged and removed almost immediately (don't know why :( ).

I guess my question/vent is: is it even possible to get good, creative web work done for no charge with the promise of a bigger payoff on the backend?
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Sep 20, 2003
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Short answer: No.

If your idea is as good as you say it is, then do a friends and family round to raise some capital so you can invest in your site. Anyone who's got half a brain wouldn't work for free or shares.
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Nov 19, 2002
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Password wrote: I guess my question/vent is: is it even possible to get good, creative web work done for no charge with the promise of a bigger payoff on the backend?
Through blackmail, or some other treachery? Possibly.

Legitimately, no.

Like DaFonz said, if an idea is REALLY that good, someone should be willing to invest. Like, say.....you. If you cannot find traditional investors, you must be willing to finance it through whatever means possible. Zero interest credit cards, etc.
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May 29, 2007
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Password wrote: It's now been almost 6 weeks, and the guy has disappeared after doing 2/3 of the job.
That sucks... if they disappeared it sounds like a clear indication that you should start looking elsewhere...

2/3 of the job is nothing... it's that 1/3 where you pull your hair out fixing all the bugs and tweaking thing incessantly for hours that really count...

IN fact... it's that last 1/3 where a lot of people find out really fast that they have no idea what they are doing and bail...

actually... it's usually that last one 1/3 of the project which makes you realize there is another whole 2/3 of the project to begin...

Typically... programming and development is hard work... it's really easy to burn out... if the person does know what they are doing but has decided that it's just not worth it... consider paying them to complete the job...

Or better yet... find somebody who knows what they are doing and pay them to do the job... that way... when the last 1/3 really digs into the patience of the developer and turns into a brand new development cycle... they will be able to afford to eat food...

But... to answer your original question... Do you really "get what you pay for?"

In your case... Yes...
I reposted the ad to Craigslist, but it got flagged and removed almost immediately (don't know why ).
I think Craigslist is attempting to improve the quality of their job postings by elimiating those who do not offer money for the services they require... You can read it here...

https://post.craigslist.org/tor/J?guide=yes
James - Programmer -
If it wasn't for GOOG, I'd be a communist. http://www.googlesux.com/ What couldn't you find on Baidu? http://www.baidu.com/
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Mar 16, 2007
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You are banking on someone taking a risk on your business with what they do as a living. That is asking a lot. You should save up, get family and friends to invest, anything to get some capital so that you can invest in a designer and get it done right.

The only times I've done sites for free have been for my partners since they provide me clients. Even then, they reimburse me later on with equipment. As a designer, it cheapens your product if you do freebies so I could see why he may bail.

And like it was said, the last 1/3 is usually the toughest.
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Feb 4, 2002
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I'm going to be completely honest.

You're not very serious about the business if you have multiple people involved and absolutely zero startup money.

No self respecting business owner is going to do what you're asking.

You're asking someone to "do all the work up front and then if we make any money you might get paid in the future".

If you're not even willing to invest in your own business or do the leg work to get even the slightest amount of startup money how can you expect anyone to take you seriously.
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Aug 28, 2007
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I'll add my voice to the chorus.

Yes, you do get what you pay for. Website design "on the cheap" will give you exactly that. Your group either needs to get serious and pony up some personal cash or else you'll sit back and play "shoulda, coulda, woulda". There are lots of good ideas that never make it out of the concept stage because the champion didn't take action on it.

You need to realize that running a business is "selling" something all the time. You're either selling your idea to raise capital... selling your financial integrity to your suppliers and vendors... selling your business abilities to accountants, lawyers, landlords & bankers... right down to finally selling your product to your customer.

If you can't sell your business case to someone to fund a simple website, you should re-evaluate your business model.
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Just Confused wrote: I'll add my voice to the chorus.

Yes, you do get what you pay for. Website design "on the cheap" will give you exactly that. Your group either needs to get serious and pony up some personal cash or else you'll sit back and play "shoulda, coulda, woulda". There are lots of good ideas that never make it out of the concept stage because the champion didn't take action on it.

You need to realize that running a business is "selling" something all the time. You're either selling your idea to raise capital... selling your financial integrity to your suppliers and vendors... selling your business abilities to accountants, lawyers, landlords & bankers... right down to finally selling your product to your customer.

If you can't sell your business case to someone to fund a simple website, you should re-evaluate your business model.
+1 .. I absolutely hate it when (sorry OP) when people keep asking me to be "their partner" and make their "Great" web idea a reality without them having a sense of how much work is actually needed to make the business work (not talking about you OP, just in general).
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Here are some reasons on why you shouldn't hire cheap web designers (let alone.. free?):

1) No Talent: Obviously someone who's willing to work on a large project for $500 has nothing else lined up and their work is worth next to nothing.

2) Irresponsible: People who aren't getting paid much for a project really have no incentive to do a great job or even work hard to make it work. They have no incentive to stay late or work late nights to make sure everything is perfect. They'll just do the bare minimum and give you something sloppy and half-functional just to get their "quick" cash

3) Outsoursing: A bunch of these people will just quickly turn your money around and send it out to India or somewhere and get someone with no experience to work on it and pay them only half the price. What do you get? An outdated website that
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TheFuteballer wrote: 1) No Talent: Obviously someone who's willing to work on a large project for $500 has nothing else lined up and their work is worth next to nothing.
Weren't you the one who mentioned they sold joomla templates for $50.00...

What exactly do you get for +$500.00?

I know... it's a cheap shot...

some people can do for $500.00 what others charge significantly more for... some people after all... are just looking for joomla templates... right?

anyways... you struck a nerve.... some people will bid low... to prevent losing a good project to an offshore development company...

Cheap does not always mean bad... and expensive certainly does not always mean good... I've seen $50,000 dollar projects go months over budget and fall short of their objectives... it happens...
7) Can't deliver: Most $500 designers have limited expertise.
How are your VML / SVG skills? being a web designer does not require that you learn everything... $500.00 designers are completely entitled to use nothing but photoshop/illustrator if they want to... hell... they could drop $50.00 on a joomla template and raise their price to $550.00.

But I agree for the most part... it's very frustrating remaining competitive and delivering product in an industry which is filled with people who have no money to spend on development... so your always cutting corners to make things work cheap, but good, and still within a reasonable timeframe... it's always a trade off as to what you can do within the time available... there are virtually a million different web technologies out there and everybody has their own little unique way of making something "work"... unless you have a budget and can go to somebody who is going to outsource your project to "specialists" no single web developer is going to be able to do everything which a "large" project can demand ( not without taking their sweet time )... and not for under $500.00... certainly not game development... you'll end up with a partially working prototype carved from a well-known template... which sort of works so long as you don't click your mouse too fast...
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Yes, you often get what you pay for. That doesn't mean that a $10,000 website will be twice as good as a $5,000 website, but for the most part, be wary of someone who is willing to do a site on the cheap. It usually means they won't be any good.
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MrGamma wrote: Weren't you the one who mentioned they sold joomla templates for $50.00...

What exactly do you get for +$500.00?

I know... it's a cheap shot...

some people can do for $500.00 what others charge significantly more for... some people after all... are just looking for joomla templates... right?
No I don't sell Joomla templates, although I did use Joomla to learn about web development. Now it obviously depends on the website. There are some people who all they want is a static page with basic graphics and just to have their presense on the web, in which case yes a sub $500 website is obviously warranted.

I'm generally speaking about websites that require a team and generally are much more complicated systems than just a bunch of static pages, such as what the op was asking for.

How are your VML / SVG skills? being a web designer does not require that you learn everything... $500.00 designers are completely entitled to use nothing but photoshop/illustrator if they want to... hell... they could drop $50.00 on a joomla template and raise their price to $550.00.
I'm not speaking about those specifically fine details that they need to know. But when I started out and I hired a lot of developers from elance or such places, and half of them didn't know how to do such basic things that I feel if you want to becoming a web developer, you just need to know!


Either way, I just feel that web developers / designers are often played down and people find it ridiculous how much a websites costs and how much time it actually takes to make a good website as I'm sure you'd agree.
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TheFuteballer wrote: +1 .. I absolutely hate it when (sorry OP) when people keep asking me to be "their partner" and make their "Great" web idea a reality without them having a sense of how much work is actually needed to make the business work (not talking about you OP, just in general).
hehe, I agree 100%. It's absolutely crazy.


OP: Would you trust a security guard you paid nothing for? Or a plumber you didn't pay? Or someone who agreed to paint your house for free? Or do your landscaping for free?
People who are in my gang: Nikita, Spidey, weedb0y, jcoltage, deep, pitz, Sylvestre, Icedawn, 3weddings, Ambermoon, CSK'sMom, jazzsax, bokep, matdwyer, Dash, KorruptioN, angekfire, sxz, WontonTiger, YYZFA, king_george, 45ED, sxz, Ojam

*WE GONNA GIT YOU!
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ullyeus wrote: Would you trust a security guard you paid nothing for? Or a plumber you didn't pay? Or someone who agreed to paint your house for free? Or do your landscaping for free?
Hang on a sec...at my house I AM all those people....! :|

OP, here's a somewhat interesting article on raising money for a startup....maybe you can find some inspiration there, and hire yourself some proper employees.

http://www.jasonnazar.com/2008/07/03/ra ... p-company/
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Password wrote: I guess my question/vent is: is it even possible to get good, creative web work done for no charge with the promise of a bigger payoff on the backend?
Yes, and you're not the only one. Over the last 10 years, I have come across quite a few such "entrepreneurs" who tried to talk me into doing work for them either free or at unreasonably low prices. I of course refused, but some of them did eventually get somebody to do that sh*twork for them. Keep trying, there are stupid people around. Good luck.
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TheFuteballer wrote: Either way, I just feel that web developers / designers are often played down and people find it ridiculous how much a websites costs and how much time it actually takes to make a good website as I'm sure you'd agree.
I agree 100%... There is nothing worse that somebody coming to you for your services... asking for a deal... getting a deal and a half... and then refusing to follow your better judgement for the welfare of the project... no matter how many obvious flaws you point out...

and then going behind your back 24/7 to "advisors" for the stuff your telling them straight up...

I am never giving people a deal ever again... it's almost like it gives them an excuse not to listen to what you have to say... and it gives them an even bigger excuse to ask for more than what you can deliver based on the deal which has been given...
James - Programmer -
If it wasn't for GOOG, I'd be a communist. http://www.googlesux.com/ What couldn't you find on Baidu? http://www.baidu.com/
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MrGamma wrote: I agree 100%... There is nothing worse that somebody coming to you for your services... asking for a deal... getting a deal and a half... and then refusing to follow your better judgement for the welfare of the project... no matter how many obvious flaws you point out...

and then going behind your back 24/7 to "advisors" for the stuff your telling them straight up...

I am never giving people a deal ever again... it's almost like it gives them an excuse not to listen to what you have to say... and it gives them an even bigger excuse to ask for more than what you can deliver based on the deal which has been given...
I couldn't agree w/ you more. Too many times have clients tried to milk more out of a contract after a set quote and service was made. This isn't a garage sale... :rolleyes: There's a reason that 'good' web development costs as much as it does.
I like to shop... and cook...
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Psylocke wrote: There's a reason that 'good' web development costs as much as it does.
I'm more concerned with people ignoring everything I have to say regarding a project. For example... if you made a website which had the majority of its pages accessible only via a search form... would you raise concerns if it was buried three clicks deep into an obscure series of pop up windows... now imagine after that first search you could never get back to that series of pop up windows without hitting the back button several times after using it initially...

Of course you would say something... who wouldn't?... now why should I waste my time giving people a deal on something who are going to make me waste a week building something the wrong way... maybe I should accept it as an opportunity to charge top dollar to fix it down the road... but it goes against my better judgement...

If I charged top dollar from the start... maybe they would listen a little more... and not expend my time like it was worthless...

Does anybody go to a dentist... and say... "fill the cavity partially... and let's see what happens..."

Then why go to a web developer and say, "screw what you think... let's do it this way... I don't care if the website actually works or not..."

I listen to others when something is problematic... why can't some people listen to their web developer when they find something which is problematic?

Honestly... I'm not really against people milking everything they can get out of a project... a good project almost demands that that happens... when things spiral off in a direction which is impossible... that's when I lose it...
James - Programmer -
If it wasn't for GOOG, I'd be a communist. http://www.googlesux.com/ What couldn't you find on Baidu? http://www.baidu.com/

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