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What a Fraternity Hazing Death Revealed About the Painful Search for an Asian-American Identity

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  • Aug 15th, 2017 1:13 pm
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peanutz wrote:
Aug 13th, 2017 3:51 am
I wasn't saying that he said the label or identity was "useless", I was specifically disagreeing that it's mostly meaningless.

It's no more or less meaningless than any other generalized group identity, in my opinion. Let's say we broke down discussions into groups such as "The Koreans and Chinese" and "Indians and Pakistanis" and "Filipinos and Pacific Islanders"...you're still not going to be accurately reflecting each individual, or family, or community in each of these subgroups. You can do state identities, "Texans", or even go national, "Americans", or "young males", or "college students", you'll run into the same pitfalls and shortcomings of addressing every facet of every person who it might apply to. That doesn't make it meaningless, in my view.

a) I've been led to believe that not all initiation rituals are brutal. b) I'd hope that if I were to become a parent, by the time they've gone off to college I'd have taught them enough to make decently good decisions of their own. And that this is not a decision that comes down to me "letting" them. LOL

I wanted to add another thing...maybe this is splitting hairs but some racial (or gender, or group-identity-politics) discussions veer into uncomfortable territory for me because I think there is a fine distinction between individuals thinking of themselves as individuals who can belong to any multitude of generalized groups or broad labels...and individuals who define themselves by those labels.

We like to say that racism is wrong, or sexism, etc. because it's wrong to apply stereotypes to individuals, but people often label themselves, or build their identities around their group associations. I'm not sure if this is increasing due to contemporary aggressive identity-related sociopolitics, but it's definitely louder than I'm used to. I'm not completely on board with all aspects and permutations of it.

For example--the writer alludes to it--one of the accused reached out to him as an "Asian writer" and asked him to write something from "Asian perspective." But what the heck does that have to do with the members' gross negligence of a friend's medical situation? What is the "Asian perspective" on that?

Or, the "Black Lives Matter" movement vis-a-vis say, Affirmative Action debate. "Stop treating me badly by seeing me as a black person,", says one mission...yet the other debate involves grouping people into racial categories and giving certain unequal benefits out of it.
Frats cost a lot of money, on top of the already high cost of attending elite schools. You're not Tiger Momming it properly if you are "letting" them choose their own university and letting him decide whether that cheque to the frat is worth it. You're new to the Bay Area though, a few more years there and you'll be mapping out his future at Stanford or Cal soon enough.

As for the "Asian perspective" in the news article, they might just be afraid of another Peter Liang incident (an Asian male taking the hit because the media just eviscerates him with no political movement to get behind them, unlike white police officers).
Piro21 wrote:
Aug 14th, 2017 12:09 pm
I find the concept of the 'model minority' to be a good thing to aspire to, but it's hardly an indication of how we should act. Trying to 'find an identity' as described in this article just seems to be code for 'develop a stereotype you think you should live by'. That's foolish. It shows that the people who seek that 'identity' still see themselves as the 'other' inside while complaining about exactly that on the outside. We are no different from anyone else here, which means that all aspects of this society are open to us. The only thing that says we need to act one specific way is the law, just like in the countries all our families came from, and that means we can do anything we want within the law just like any other citizen here.
Not "all" aspects of society are open. The c-level executive suites are still closed off, especially in the tech sector where Asians are heavily under-represented despite their high % in non-executive positions. Law firm partnerships are rare. Media and Hollywood representation for Asian males is low. You're taking a very naive view of things if you think your race doesn't play a role in how people view you.

Identity has to do with a lot of things. It's tough for an Asian to grow up thinking he can be an NBA player when there aren't any Asian NBA players (Jeremy Lin has talked about this). You're afraid to go into acting if you've never seen an Asian American actor successful in Hollywood as a romantic male lead, a role non-Asians play frequently (there's an entire RFD thread about this).

The thing is, it's not necessarily how you view your identity either or whether you choose to live up to a stereotype. A lot of it is how others perceive you, which is why problems like the bamboo ceiling exists. You can act like and believe you're executive material all you want, but if the board doesn't think Asians make good leaders, then you're out of luck.
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Corner3 wrote:
Aug 14th, 2017 3:43 pm
Not "all" aspects of society are open. The c-level executive suites are still closed off, especially in the tech sector where Asians are heavily under-represented despite their high % in non-executive positions. Law firm partnerships are rare. Media and Hollywood representation for Asian males is low. You're taking a very naive view of things if you think your race doesn't play a role in how people view you.

Identity has to do with a lot of things. It's tough for an Asian to grow up thinking he can be an NBA player when there aren't any Asian NBA players (Jeremy Lin has talked about this). You're afraid to go into acting if you've never seen an Asian American actor successful in Hollywood as a romantic male lead, a role non-Asians play frequently (there's an entire RFD thread about this).

The thing is, it's not necessarily how you view your identity either or whether you choose to live up to a stereotype. A lot of it is how others perceive you, which is why problems like the bamboo ceiling exists. You can act like and believe you're executive material all you want, but if the board doesn't think Asians make good leaders, then you're out of luck.
I'm not naive enough to believe that race plays no part in how people view us, but I don't think it plays any more of a role than how it affects any other race. The identity issues that I've seen all over the internet lately seem to be from kids who grew up here thinking that the process was over, that everything that needed to be done had been done by those that came before, and that they would be the ones to sit back and reap the harvest instead of having to plant for the next generation too. That's not the case. Large-scale immigration from Asia is still relatively new here, and our numbers are still low. It will take time and numbers to be fully integrated into the society the way the various European groups are, but it will happen with us faster than it happened with them.

The success of people like Sundar Pichai, Lisa Su, Jensen Huang, John Chen, Indra Nooyi, Satya Nadella, and so on shows that things aren't closed, but more 'yet to be opened'. They rose to the top in tech, an industry where we are represented and accepted. That sort of acceptance is there in fields like medicine, engineering, science, education, office jobs, and the restaurant industry, but it's not there in a lot of other fields. Law, law enforcement, the arts, politics, social services, farming, the military, etc are still fields where anyone who enters these days would face the same struggles their parents faced in the field we're accepted in today. Finance is another field where we aren't represented at the top levels, but put enough skilled people into that sector and we'll start seeing more representation on boards of directors and at the C level in every industry.

The sports arena is only starting to be opened by people like Yao Ming, Jeremy Lin, Vijay Singh, etc, and the historically racist hollywood arena is starting to open up with people like Dev Patel, Ken Watanabe, and so on in leading roles, but more people are joining in. Media representation will happen as our market both domestic and abroad grows. For those born here, the only real option is to do what your parents did and 'act like a CEO' to ensure that you make the most of every opportunity. We still have to hack a path for ourselves and everyone after us even though the forest isn't as thick anymore, and the last thing we need is people believing external stereotypes about themselves.
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Corner3 wrote:
Aug 14th, 2017 3:43 pm
Frats cost a lot of money, on top of the already high cost of attending elite schools. You're not Tiger Momming it properly if you are "letting" them choose their own university and letting him decide whether that cheque to the frat is worth it. You're new to the Bay Area though, a few more years there and you'll be mapping out his future at Stanford or Cal soon enough.
I haven't decided whether Tiger parenting is something I'm convinced of. I've also never been based out of the Bay Area. Was around the Sacramento part of NorCal for a bit, I'm back in Toronto until I decide what to do next.
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Poor undermined Asians. Nevermind the fact that they perform much better economically and educationally, and have a lot of cliques and intermingling events which allow them to network and to be much more integrated and supported socially. The average young Caucasian North American who tries to get his life started, on the other hand, is on his own, shut out of everything and spends his evenings browsing YouTube, to the point of some getting fed off and tying a noose around their neck.

I'm so sick of this constant oppression olympics. No one does the same thing for the millions of laid off blue collar workers who might become homeless or unable to pay medical bills.

https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/ ... h-incomes/
Drawing on Census Bureau and other government data as well as telephone surveys from Jan. 3 to March 27 of more than 3,500 people of Asian descent, the 214-page study found that Asians are the highest-earning and best-educated racial group in the country.

Among Asians 25 or older, 49 percent hold a college degree, compared with 28 percent of all people in that age range in the United States. Median annual household income among Asians is $66,000 versus $49,800 among the general population.

In the survey, Asians are also distinguished by their emphasis on traditional family mores. About 54 percent of the respondents, compared with 34 percent of all adults in the country, said having a successful marriage was one of the most important goals in life; another was being a good parent, according to 67 percent of Asian adults, compared with about half of all adults in the general population.

Asians also place greater importance on career and material success, the study reported, values reflected in child-rearing styles. About 62 percent of Asians in the United States believe that most American parents do not put enough pressure on their children to do well in school.
As we all know, the Greater Toronto Area is the center of the universe!
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Poutinesauce wrote:
Aug 14th, 2017 8:25 pm
Poor undermined Asians. Nevermind the fact that they perform much better economically and educationally, and have a lot of cliques and intermingling events which allow them to network and to be much more integrated and supported socially. The average young Caucasian North American who tries to get his life started, on the other hand, is on his own, shut out of everything and spends his evenings browsing YouTube, to the point of some getting fed off and tying a noose around their neck.
Allow me to offer these "Caucasians" some advice from a conservative, capitalist perspective.

Work hard, study hard and you will make something of yourself. No one will give you handout. It's up to you to upgrade your skillset and find a job. Oppurtunity is there, you must seize it. Feeling sorry for yourself won't accomplish anything. Get to it. Chop chop.
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Poutinesauce wrote:
Aug 14th, 2017 8:25 pm
Poor undermined Asians. Nevermind the fact that they perform much better economically and educationally, and have a lot of cliques and intermingling events which allow them to network and to be much more integrated and supported socially. The average young Caucasian North American who tries to get his life started, on the other hand, is on his own, shut out of everything and spends his evenings browsing YouTube, to the point of some getting fed off and tying a noose around their neck.

I'm so sick of this constant oppression olympics. No one does the same thing for the millions of laid off blue collar workers who might become homeless or unable to pay medical bills.

https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/ ... h-incomes/
Be white

Live on a continent with literally hundreds of millions of other white people who all speak the same language, follow the same religion, and come from the same place

See white people in every position in every sector of the economy, media, government, and everywhere else you look

Have a family with more money and connections than any other group they use to help you

See examples to follow no matter what you feel like doing

See cliques like churches, sports teams, country clubs, 'old boys clubs', political parties, drinking buddies, professional associations, family businesses, and so on again everywhere you look

Complain on the internet that you have no societal support, no cliques, no networking events, and can't integrate into your own society. Say other people are the ones playing 'oppression olympics'.


I guess this is what they mean when they talk about the 'tyranny of freedom'. It makes sense. When someone is given every opportunity in life but doesn't make anything of them they have to find some external group to blame for their lack of success instead of looking in the mirror.
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Piro21 wrote:
Aug 15th, 2017 9:42 am
Be white

Live on a continent with literally hundreds of millions of other white people who all speak the same language, follow the same religion, and come from the same place

See white people in every position in every sector of the economy, media, government, and everywhere else you look

Have a family with more money and connections than any other group they use to help you

See examples to follow no matter what you feel like doing

See cliques like churches, sports teams, country clubs, 'old boys clubs', political parties, drinking buddies, professional associations, family businesses, and so on again everywhere you look

Complain on the internet that you have no societal support, no cliques, no networking events, and can't integrate into your own society. Say other people are the ones playing 'oppression olympics'.


I guess this is what they mean when they talk about the 'tyranny of freedom'. It makes sense. When someone is given every opportunity in life but doesn't make anything of them they have to find some external group to blame for their lack of success instead of looking in the mirror.
First off, I was not talking about myself at all, I have done well at life.

I stand by everything I have said. Even studies, such as the one I pointed to, shows that Asians are more educated, have significantly higher median income, have higher social capital, are more likely to be in stable marriages, and many other things.

And then they complain that society is persecuting them. I find such claims farcical.

If white men were so "privileged", there wouldn't be millions and millions of poor blue collar workers struggling to make ends meet, something that statistics show is far less prevalent among Asians.
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Poutinesauce wrote:
Aug 15th, 2017 11:12 am
First off, I was not talking about myself at all, I have done well at life.

I stand by everything I have said. Even studies, such as the one I pointed to, shows that Asians are more educated, have significantly higher median income, have higher social capital, are more likely to be in stable marriages, and many other things.

And then they complain that society is persecuting them. I find such claims farcical.

If white men were so "privileged", there wouldn't be millions and millions of poor blue collar workers struggling to make ends meet, something that statistics show is far less prevalent among Asians.
Who here is claiming society is persecuting us aside from you? I see a reasonable discussion of the path ahead of us and the difficulty of breaking into unfamiliar industries, that's all. You seem to have an issue with people who work hard reaping the rewards despite coming from a weaker position in society, and are claiming that a group with far more advantages in every conceivable arena is somehow being persecuted.

As for your latter comment, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can send students to the best schools in the world but you can't make them study, and you can give people all the opportunities in life but you can't make them use them. Those 'millions of blue collar workers' grew up in the richest nation in human history during a time when it was on top of the world. They made their choices in life with input from nobody but themselves. Now they continue to vote against their best interests and attack others instead of trying to improve. The clown in charge down south busy running his country into the ground is just the latest example of that.
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If white men were so "privileged", there wouldn't be millions and millions of poor blue collar workers struggling to make ends meet, something that statistics show is far less prevalent among Asians.
It depends on what type of Asian. There are lots of Asians on this forum that would be estactic in a steady blue collar job. Just look at the Careers section of RFD, a thread about power engineering/electrician/fort mac all the time.

The success of the type of Asians in the US happens in spite of discrimination, not because there's less of it. Just look at the dumbasses that tried to step to in this thread, as if RFD was somehow their property and Asian topics were off-limits (despite RFD's Founder being of Chinese descent).

If anything, white people are the ones getting handouts at the expense of Asians. Asians still need to scorer higher on standerdized exams and have higher GPAs then white Americans to get into the same universities.
peanutz wrote:
Aug 14th, 2017 5:16 pm
I haven't decided whether Tiger parenting is something I'm convinced of. I've also never been based out of the Bay Area. Was around the Sacramento part of NorCal for a bit, I'm back in Toronto until I decide what to do next.
Unless your kid is very naturally motivated to study (unlikely, because like most kids he'd rather play XBox or hoop with friends), Tiger mom-ing works. A couple of my cousins were raised in a laid-back Canadian way, their parents thinking they'd do fine and if the kid was meant good enough he'd get into a good university regardless. 1 ended up at and dropping out of UBC and 1 ended up at York. AFAIK they're not doing anything, my aunts don't even talk about them at get-togethers. You definitely don't want to go full out psycho like Amy Chua, but if you want them in med school or Berkeley, it's going to take some early planning.

Also, you've left NorCal for Toronto? "How you expect to run with the wolves come night when you spend all day sparring with the puppies?" - Omar, "The Wire"
I'm At The W, But I Can't Meet You In The Lobby, Girl I Gotta Watch My Back, Cuz I'm Not Just Anybody, I Seen Em' Stand In Line, Just To Get Beside Her, That's When We Disappear, You Need GPS To Find Her, Oh That Was Your Girl? I Thought I Recognized Her."

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