Xiphias, have you driven a GTI vs a R? The reason I asked is because although on paper they sound very similar but they feel totally different when going through corners. I don't know how to describe it, I wish I liked the GTI then I would have saved 4-5k. As for near limit driving, I haven't reach that stage yet and I don't think I ever will on public roads, maybe when I go to autoX this summer I will report back but then again I will probably get a proper track car in a couple year.
What should I cross shop with the VW Golf R?
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- pltz77
- Sr. Member
- May 9, 2012
- 520 posts
- 173 upvotes
- SF Bay Area
- Xiphias
- Member
- May 17, 2009
- 246 posts
- 18 upvotes
First of all, enjoy your car. It sounds like you are the owner of a Golf R, so congratulations. You don't have to listen to me, I'm wrong 90% of the time, lol. You didn't like the GTI when you drove it, that's all that matters.pltz77 wrote: ↑Xiphias, have you driven a GTI vs a R? The reason I asked is because although on paper they sound very similar but they feel totally different when going through corners. I don't know how to describe it, I wish I liked the GTI then I would have saved 4-5k. As for near limit driving, I haven't reach that stage yet and I don't think I ever will on public roads, maybe when I go to autoX this summer I will report back but then again I will probably get a proper track car in a couple year.
I only have limited experience in the R, while I've driven both my friends' GTIs (DSG and manual). I actually feel the exact opposite to you - on paper, the Golf R looks totally different than a GTI but in practice I've found them to be similar. Well, I'll amend that statement and say that I did not feel a difference in the Golf R that was worth $5-10 thousand. You still can't turn off stability control, it doesn't really produce that much power even with a K04 turbo, the suspension isn't really any sportier, the Haldex controller has an FWD bias and tends to kick in retardedly in the middle of a corner and rotating the car sometimes unexpectedly, there's still a heavy weight bias to the front, there's no mechanical slip differential, etc.
In my opinion, if you're (well, not you, but in general, for a hypothetical Golf R owner...) going to keep your car stock, I just don't think the Golf R is the way to go. It has so much potential (AWD, K04, etc.) that is not realized until you start modifying it, eg. with sway bars, haldex controllers, etc. And yeah, it may be exclusive, but it's difficult to tell a Golf R apart from your standard Golf.
I mean, what's the point of having a $40K exclusive car that looks like every other Golf? At least the GTI has those red highlights.
- CalgaryExotics
- Deal Addict
- Nov 13, 2012
- 1468 posts
- 68 upvotes
- Edmonton
Thats like saying why buy an X5 M over an xdrive50i when they look nearly identical?Xiphias wrote: ↑First of all, enjoy your car. It sounds like you are the owner of a Golf R, so congratulations. You don't have to listen to me, I'm wrong 90% of the time, lol. You didn't like the GTI when you drove it, that's all that matters.
I only have limited experience in the R, while I've driven both my friends' GTIs (DSG and manual). I actually feel the exact opposite to you - on paper, the Golf R looks totally different than a GTI but in practice I've found them to be similar. Well, I'll amend that statement and say that I did not feel a difference in the Golf R that was worth $5-10 thousand. You still can't turn off stability control, it doesn't really produce that much power even with a K04 turbo, the suspension isn't really any sportier, the Haldex controller has an FWD bias and tends to kick in retardedly in the middle of a corner and rotating the car sometimes unexpectedly, there's still a heavy weight bias to the front, there's no mechanical slip differential, etc.
In my opinion, if you're (well, not you, but in general, for a hypothetical Golf R owner...) going to keep your car stock, I just don't think the Golf R is the way to go. It has so much potential (AWD, K04, etc.) that is not realized until you start modifying it, eg. with sway bars, haldex controllers, etc. And yeah, it may be exclusive, but it's difficult to tell a Golf R apart from your standard Golf.
I mean, what's the point of having a $40K exclusive car that looks like every other Golf? At least the GTI has those red highlights.
- trinxified
- Deal Fanatic
- Jul 17, 2011
- 6609 posts
- 3909 upvotes
I'm sure the MS3 has more torque steer than the GTI (if that's the VW you're talking about). They don't have similar power output (much higher on both HP and lbs/tq on the MS3), and I believe torque steer is not as prevalent on the GTI, if any at all.Anonymouse wrote: ↑The VW should have a similar amount of torque steer to the MS3, because they are both FWD vehicles with a similar engine output. Is the Golf braking one of the wheels or something?
- mr_raider
- Deal Expert
- Feb 29, 2008
- 30106 posts
- 5547 upvotes
- Montreal
Volvo doesn't make any hot hatches for the North American market. However the upcoming V60 may be an option, but it will be somewhat more expensive than the golf R. The C30 is not available in AWD.mjl_toronto wrote: ↑I used to say the same about my MKIV GTI 1.8T, but I never actually chipped it.
Most likely won't do any performance modifications for any new car I buy.
Anybody have opinions on Saab or Volvo?
- audiohs
- Sr. Member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 710 posts
- 413 upvotes
Yes you can. The Canadian version of the R (like the European version) can fully disable the stability control. Simply hold the traction control button for two seconds. The US version can only disable traction control, not stability control. But that can be easily recoded with a VAG-COM tool to behave like the Canadian and Euro R.
- Sibica
- Deal Addict
- Aug 22, 2008
- 2891 posts
- 259 upvotes
Actually, I thought I made it pretty clear that I don't currently own, have never owned, and most possibly will never own, a VW.Xiphias wrote: ↑And you're not justifying your purchase to me. You can rationalize it whatever you want, and you have the right to express your opinion on an open forum, just like I have the right to point out that I don't think the Golf R is worth that much more money over the GTI. How many people do you think paid less than MSRP for the Golf R? In comparison, two of my friends have picked up new MK6 GTIs all optioned out (wheels, interior, sunroof, whatever) for $33K OTD, because it's not exclusive and dealers are willing to make the sale at a lower cost.
I was simply agreeing with the rationale behind making such a purchase as the Golf R.
Sorry.
The best way to become ordinary is to follow the advice of ordinary people.
Unless you've actually tried something, your comments are virtually meaningless.
Condemnation before investigation is the highest form of ignorance
Unless you've actually tried something, your comments are virtually meaningless.
Condemnation before investigation is the highest form of ignorance
- Xiphias
- Member
- May 17, 2009
- 246 posts
- 18 upvotes
Sweet, didn't know that.audiohs wrote: ↑Yes you can. The Canadian version of the R (like the European version) can fully disable the stability control. Simply hold the traction control button for two seconds. The US version can only disable traction control, not stability control. But that can be easily recoded with a VAG-COM tool to behave like the Canadian and Euro R.
- ES_Revenge
- Deal Expert
- Mar 23, 2004
- 35606 posts
- 18999 upvotes
Yes the Mk6 GTIs have XDS which is a brake "differential"...it can lightly brake one of the drive wheels (typically the inside wheel) to mitigate understeer in corners. I'm not sure but I'd imagine it should be capable of doing the same thing for torque-steer off the line. However, the FWD PQ35 cars with 2.0T (except perhaps the TT) still suffer from wheel hop if traction isn't great, unless the mounts are all replaced with stiffer/less compliant ones.Anonymouse wrote: ↑I think the Golf must be using its electric steering assist or braking a wheel to compensate for torque steer, because both cars should behave similarly without compensation.
I thought that the "OFF" mode just set it to a higher threshold though? To really turn it OFF don't you need to use VCDS to re-code the steering angle sensor off/unavailable?audiohs wrote:Yes you can. The Canadian version of the R (like the European version) can fully disable the stability control. Simply hold the traction control button for two seconds. The US version can only disable traction control, not stability control. But that can be easily recoded with a VAG-COM tool to behave like the Canadian and Euro R.
- audiohs
- Sr. Member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 710 posts
- 413 upvotes
AFAIK, it is fully disabled. Or the threshold setting is just really really high. I haven't tracked my car yet but have played in empty parking lots over the winter and never felt the stability control intrude at all.ES_Revenge wrote: ↑I thought that the "OFF" mode just set it to a higher threshold though? To really turn it OFF don't you need to use VCDS to re-code the steering angle sensor off/unavailable?
- deepfryleung
- Newbie
- Aug 17, 2011
- 19 posts
- 7 upvotes
- RICHMOND HILL
Wow, looks who's talking: someone who obviously didn't do his own research before posting his opinion here. Do you know how many other cars, including but not limited to those from VW & Audi, carry this "stupid" 4th gen Haldex system? And yes, the stock R is not a full-time AWD but why kill your fuel economy while driving on the HWY in a straight line, I suppose that would be "stupid"? and the $10K difference you mentioned ... must be from a base GTI? because the difference between an equally equipped GTI and an R is no more than CAD $4K. And you try to compare the power of a chipped GTI with a stock R, and not an equally chipped R?Xiphias wrote: ↑Do your research. The Golf R is absolutely NOT worth it compared to the GTI. A simple $600 Stage 1 gives the GTI more equal/greater horsepower and torque than the R. Regarding the AWD, the Golf R uses a stupid Haldex system that delivers power only to the front wheels, until it detects a loss in traction, at which point some power is distributed to the rear wheels. Thus, for 99.9999% of the time the Golf R drives like a FWD car with the weight of an AWD car. Absolute waste of $10K.
Do you always compare products like this? because I can throw in other factors like various haldex controller upgrades available that can completely transform the way the R drives.
Think it through next time before you open your mouth and say something like "XXX is absolutely not worth it compared to YYY"
- deepfryleung
- Newbie
- Aug 17, 2011
- 19 posts
- 7 upvotes
- RICHMOND HILL
If you wish, stability control can be turned off completely without using VCDS in the Canadian version of the R. And I have a feeling that you're describing the classic behaviour of the 3rd gen Haldex. While not perfect the 4th gen is much improved.
- ES_Revenge
- Deal Expert
- Mar 23, 2004
- 35606 posts
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Actually it is "full-time", and "full-time AWD" is a redundant term anyway. But I agree with everything else 4th gen Haldex is actually pretty impressive and it does NOT wait until it loses traction or for wheelspin to engage the rear end. 4th gen Haldex engages the rear end merely upon acceleration, similar to how ATTESA E-TS operates the front end under acceleration.deepfryleung wrote: ↑Wow, looks who's talking: someone who obviously didn't do his own research before posting his opinion here. Do you know how many other cars, including but not limited to those from VW & Audi, carry this "stupid" 4th gen Haldex system? And yes, the stock R is not a full-time AWD
Agreed!deepfryleung wrote:but why kill your fuel economy while driving on the HWY in a straight line, I suppose that would be "stupid"? and the $10K difference you mentioned ... must be from a base GTI? because the difference between an equally equipped GTI and an R is no more than CAD $4K. And you try to compare the power of a chipped GTI with a stock R, and not an equally chipped R?
Do you always compare products like this? because I can throw in other factors like various haldex controller upgrades available that can completely transform the way the R drives.
Think it through next time before you open your mouth and say something like "XXX is absolutely not worth it compared to YYY"
- KevC
- Deal Fanatic
- Mar 24, 2004
- 8683 posts
- 573 upvotes
- Toronto
wat.deepfryleung wrote: ↑Wow, looks who's talking: someone who obviously didn't do his own research before posting his opinion here. Do you know how many other cars, including but not limited to those from VW & Audi, carry this "stupid" 4th gen Haldex system? And yes, the stock R is not a full-time AWD but why kill your fuel economy while driving on the HWY in a straight line, I suppose that would be "stupid"? and the $10K difference you mentioned ... must be from a base GTI? because the difference between an equally equipped GTI and an R is no more than CAD $4K. And you try to compare the power of a chipped GTI with a stock R, and not an equally chipped R?
Do you always compare products like this? because I can throw in other factors like various haldex controller upgrades available that can completely transform the way the R drives.
Think it through next time before you open your mouth and say something like "XXX is absolutely not worth it compared to YYY"
I didn't know the difference was so small ! But there probably isn't much negotiation room on an .:R, right?
- audiohs
- Sr. Member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 710 posts
- 413 upvotes
I'm pretty sure all of the Canadian R's are all sold (500 2012's and 250 2013's). When I was shopping for a 2012, none of the dealers that I had spoken to were selling below MSRP. I managed to squeak out a set of all-weather mats out of them but that's it.
P.S. Well said ES_Revenge and deepfryleung. Haters gonna hate.
- Trooob
- Deal Fanatic
- Oct 25, 2003
- 9294 posts
- 415 upvotes
Poster was correct that the difference is a few thousand when comparing msrp of a loaded manual GTI vs the R but the other guy did bring up a good point in that a GTI can be had thousands less than MSRP...
I for one would rather start from a higher base level, and that's what you get with the R. Did you see the APR Stage 3 kit with the revised calibrations?
Stock internals too! I'd like to see the TSI do that with stock internals
[IMG]http://www.goapr.com/news/wp-content/up ... -3-100.png[/IMG]
- Xiphias
- Member
- May 17, 2009
- 246 posts
- 18 upvotes
Wow, looks like I upset a fanboi. From (http://jalopnik.com/5930559/2012-volksw ... nik-review)deepfryleung wrote: ↑Wow, looks who's talking: someone who obviously didn't do his own research before posting his opinion here. Do you know how many other cars, including but not limited to those from VW & Audi, carry this "stupid" 4th gen Haldex system? And yes, the stock R is not a full-time AWD but why kill your fuel economy while driving on the HWY in a straight line, I suppose that would be "stupid"? and the $10K difference you mentioned ... must be from a base GTI? because the difference between an equally equipped GTI and an R is no more than CAD $4K. And you try to compare the power of a chipped GTI with a stock R, and not an equally chipped R?
Do you always compare products like this? because I can throw in other factors like various haldex controller upgrades available that can completely transform the way the R drives.
Think it through next time before you open your mouth and say something like "XXX is absolutely not worth it compared to YYY"
"Get on the power too early, and you have the unpleasant sound of screaming tires begging you to let off the gas and take it a little easy. And the Haldex all-wheel drive system is up to its old tricks in the middle of the corner and starts rotating it when you might not expect it. Oy."
Regarding pricing, this is straight from the VW.ca website (http://www.vw.ca/en/models.html): Golf GTI starting at $29,375 vs the Golf R starting at $39,675. So...I don't see how I was wrong, since I never once compared "equally equipped" GTI and Rs, just that GTIs start at $10K less.
- ES_Revenge
- Deal Expert
- Mar 23, 2004
- 35606 posts
- 18999 upvotes
That's stage III "GTX" :P
Also let's compare apples to apples here...
You're comparing an upgraded EA113 (CRZ/CDL) to a "regular" EA888 (CCTA/CBFA)...that makes no sense. The upgraded engine has stronger internals and there is no upgraded EA888 yet. If you look at the same turbo kit/level on a "regular" EA113 (the BPY for example) the numbers are much lower. Compare Stage III GTX on a BPY to Stage III+ on a CCTA instead and you'll see which one is out on top. Though I doubt you'd want to run either of those on the regular/standard engines without upgraded internals.
When the upgraded EA888 makes its debut in the next gen .:R/S3, then we can talk about comparing it with an upgraded turbo to a CDL engine with upgraded turbo.
- ar_ken
- Sr. Member
- Sep 4, 2005
- 940 posts
- 64 upvotes
Disclosure: I have a Golf R myself.Xiphias wrote: ↑Wow, looks like I upset a fanboi. From (http://jalopnik.com/5930559/2012-volksw ... nik-review)
"Get on the power too early, and you have the unpleasant sound of screaming tires begging you to let off the gas and take it a little easy. And the Haldex all-wheel drive system is up to its old tricks in the middle of the corner and starts rotating it when you might not expect it. Oy."
Regarding pricing, this is straight from the VW.ca website (http://www.vw.ca/en/models.html): Golf GTI starting at $29,375 vs the Golf R starting at $39,675. So...I don't see how I was wrong, since I never once compared "equally equipped" GTI and Rs, just that GTIs start at $10K less.
While I do see your point on the difference in MSRP, you SHOULD compare it with similar equipment. If you think about it, the C63 is about "15k more" than a C250, the S4 is almost "18k more" than a A4, I can go on and on.... but I'm sure you get my point.
- Trooob
- Deal Fanatic
- Oct 25, 2003
- 9294 posts
- 415 upvotes
Heh hence the winkES_Revenge wrote: ↑That's stage III "GTX" :P
Also let's compare apples to apples here...
You're comparing an upgraded EA113 (CRZ/CDL) to a "regular" EA888 (CCTA/CBFA)...that makes no sense. The upgraded engine has stronger internals and there is no upgraded EA888 yet. If you look at the same turbo kit/level on a "regular" EA113 (the BPY for example) the numbers are much lower. Compare Stage III GTX on a BPY to Stage III+ on a CCTA instead and you'll see which one is out on top. Though I doubt you'd want to run either of those on the regular/standard engines without upgraded internals.
When the upgraded EA888 makes its debut in the next gen .:R/S3, then we can talk about comparing it with an upgraded turbo to a CDL engine with upgraded turbo.
To be fair though the new E888 has quite a number of enhancements to be able to call it a new engine compare to the 2nd gen TSI...
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