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Locked: Why was the Brampton flooring thread removed?

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  • Jun 18th, 2012 9:38 am
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wilsonlam97 wrote: How could they win in a case when the OP of the previous thread was explaining the truth of his/her experience?

Its only the freedom of speech when it makes sense.
Defamation I believe is only when the person is clearly lying to damage the reputation of a person/company - if the OP said "they have a sweat shop of 13 year old girls in the basement", then I could see the thread being removed. He was just sharing his experience with a company, I would think free speech applies, considering how often there are similar threads on here complaining about Futureshop or CanadianTire.

RFD fail.
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This is pathetic. RFD, you should be ashamed.
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porphyra wrote: This is pathetic. RFD, you should be ashamed.
+1. Completely agree with you. This is censorship at its worst.
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Shaner wrote: Why was that thread deleted? It was an informative thread about a company allegedly scamming an RFD member. Why delete it?
Did Brampton flooring complain directly to someone high up in YellowPages?

It makes no sense to delete a thread warning other RFD'ers about shady business practices. Unless there's something we don't know, such as it was proven the OP was lying or something along those lines. If that's the case, it would be good to know that too.
I believe this particular thread was removed due to (legal) action taken.

Im speaking for myself here, but "scam" threads are (almost) never deleted simply because the business(es) in question complains.
These threads serve as an important resource for the community, and inform shoppers of the negative (and positive) experiences.

Complaints are received on a daily basis from businesses wanting certain posts/threads deleted because it showed up on Google.
But unless something crosses the line (ie: users making threats), it will not be edited/removed.


Personal opinion - I don't think its very nice for everyone to jump to conclusions so fast (as seen from all the heated replies in this thread)... Have some faith in the site you visit. Just saying. :o
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Pathetic, RFD also rolled over when a user threatened legal action because his avatar is religious.

See this post for the avatar issue.
commentary-questions-regarding-inconsis ... st14900411

So that is all it takes for RFD to roll over? The mere mention of legal action and they give up. Maybe users that are banned should use that method.
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AcidBomber wrote: I believe this particular thread was removed due to (legal) action taken.

Im speaking for myself here, but "scam" threads are (almost) never deleted simply because the business(es) in question complains.
These threads serve as an important resource for the community, and inform shoppers of the negative (and positive) experiences.

Complaints are received on a daily basis from businesses wanting certain posts/threads deleted because it showed up on Google.
But unless something crosses the line (ie: users making threats), it will not be edited/removed.
Yeah, I acknowledged that back on page 1.
why-brampton-flooring-thread-removed-11 ... st14901936

I have no doubt why it was removed. The question in the title of the thread really was rhetorical. Even before I created this thread I was confident of the answer to my question, but as you stated, complaints are received on a daily basis from businesses, so why was this one removed while others remain? I'm just wondering where the line is drawn? When legal action is taken or threat of legal action, are threads automatically removed? Is it a case by case basis?

Like I said back on page 1, I would hope RFD would stand up for the ability of RFD members to post experiences with shady businesses; however, I understand court costs could potentially be too expensive to permit that without exception.

I guess I was just looking for an admin to explain what happened, although I guess since some form of legal action has already been taken, it doesn't surprise me that the admin would prefer to stay out of this discussion.

It says a lot about Brampton Hardwood though. They'd rather threaten legal action against the host of the website that contains the information than deal with the actual customer complaint. That business is a joke!
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Shaner, it's my understanding that threads are only removed when RFD has been actually served legal paperwork. I know a while ago a business owner was reporting every single post in a thread about their business and it was not removed as the owner only threatened legal action but never actually did.
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Brampton Hardwoods legal threat was probably nothing but hot air. If they sue the website then they would have to sue the home star website as well. Because that site has nothing but all negative reviews of their business.
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CSK'sMom wrote: Shaner, it's my understanding that threads are only removed when RFD has been actually served legal paperwork. I know a while ago a business owner was reporting every single post in a thread about their business and it was not removed as the owner only threatened legal action but never actually did.
Good to know. So it sounds like in this case an actual affidavit was delivered.
That makes Brampton Hardwood look even worse than before. They've really done themselves an even bigger disservice by serving RFD with an affidavit. Anyone who pays any attention to RFD would know that it really is impossible to silence this community.
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Could someone in Brampton have a look to see how big their ad is in the Yellow Pages? I doubt anyone would still have a copy that didn'nt end up in the recycle bin...but maybe.

I sure as hell hope it has something to do with legal action and not threatening to kill the relationship with a company on life support that can't afford to turn down a few $100 bucks a year.

I just find it odd that a legal paperwork from a company's lawyer would get into the hands of another company's lawyer at noon on a Saturday...
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If RFD/YPG did get a letter from a lawyer from this there isn't much that can be done and IMO if people are saying this wouldn't have happened when BlueSky/Derek owned RFD I don't believe that.

However instead of just nuking the thread may I suggest:
  • Deleting the old thread
  • Creating a new thread titled "Brampton Flooring Legal Complaint regarding reviews"
  • Mention that the old thread was deleted because of this and include scans of the letter from the lawyers office
  • Make a note saying that reviews aren't allowed in this new thread. If users don't comply the thread will be locked.
This is basically what Google does when they get a DCMA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) take down notice for piracy.

Once you have the legal notice from the lawyers office there's nothing forbidding RFD from making the notice as public as possible. That way YPG can "pass the buck" and not be seen as the censors.

This should also make future businesses *seriously* reconsider if they want to go this route if they know their grievances will be made so public.

I know if someone pulled this BS with me I'd take that letter from the lawyers office and plaster it in sooooo many places so sooooo many more people would know about what was going on than ever would have from a little thread on the internet.
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Just a couple of points to add.

1.) Being served a legal notice does not obligate RFD to take down the posts in question. They can file an appeal or defense and have the issue escalated.

2.) Posting the legal paperwork is a good idea and it should have its own sticky thread. Full disclosure and transparency are important and I feel this is something we can all stand behind.
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Ojam wrote: Pathetic, RFD also rolled over when a user threatened legal action because his avatar is religious.

See this post for the avatar issue.
commentary-questions-regarding-inconsis ... st14900411

So that is all it takes for RFD to roll over? The mere mention of legal action and they give up. Maybe users that are banned should use that method.
I don't like Allan. He was being a real ***** in the thread. We as a community could've mediate the situation instead of going on under fire and targeting each other. Allan should just change his avatar.

My opinion is a little bias because I'm an atheist but I still give an open-minded response otherwise. Allan, if you feel threatened and you want to fight back by taking legal action then I have no good words for you. Take it easy.
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Cas77 wrote: Could someone in Brampton have a look to see how big their ad is in the Yellow Pages? I doubt anyone would still have a copy that didn'nt end up in the recycle bin...but maybe.

I sure as hell hope it has something to do with legal action and not threatening to kill the relationship with a company on life support that can't afford to turn down a few $100 bucks a year.

I just find it odd that a legal paperwork from a company's lawyer would get into the hands of another company's lawyer at noon on a Saturday...
I still have the Yellow Pages. It says on it that I have to "Keep until February 2013" so I couldn't throw it out :) No ad in the Yellow Pages, just two listings: one under Floor Laying, Refinishing, Resurfacing and the other under Floor Materials. The first listing is in Caps so they paid a little more for that and it includes their fax number. The second is just a regular listing.

Can anyone answer the question from a legal perspective if a website is responsible for the content of the postings of a member? I don't think they are. This is not hate speech or something prohibited, it is his account of his experience dealing with Brampton Hardwood Floors. I realize that RFD would want to avoid a lawsuit but I don't see it being successful and giving in, is a slippery slope.
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Cheap Cat wrote: Can anyone answer the question from a legal perspective if a website is responsible for the content of the postings of a member? I don't think they are. This is not hate speech or something prohibited, it is his account of his experience dealing with Brampton Hardwood Floors. I realize that RFD would want to avoid a lawsuit but I don't see it being successful and giving in, is a slippery slope.
I can't say for sure, but look at all the lawsuits against Torrent websites. Torrent websites don't even host the content, they just allow you to search for it, yet they've been successfully sued and shut down. So could RFD be held responsible for the information posted by the users? I would think potentially they could in the right (or wrong) circumstances. At the very least, if a business was serious, RFD would have to spend money defending itself in court, and I imagine RFD would rather just delete the content than spend money on lawyers.
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Shaner wrote: I can't say for sure, but look at all the lawsuits against Torrent websites. Torrent websites don't even host the content, they just allow you to search for it, yet they've been successfully sued and shut down. So could RFD be held responsible for the information posted by the users? I would think potentially they could in the right (or wrong) circumstances. At the very least, if a business was serious, RFD would have to spend money defending itself in court, and I imagine RFD would rather just delete the content than spend money on lawyers.
I think that case is different because they are facilitating copyright infringement ie an illegal activity. RFD is doing nothing of the sort. They are merely providing a forum where a user has written about his experience. In the US (yes I realize it is a different country with different laws), owners of websites hide behind the law and apparently nothing can be done. I am specifically referring to sites that allow users to post to "dirt" on others and when the victims ask to remove the "dirt" it can only be done for a fee even when there is no truth to what was written. Having seen lawyers interviewed on the subject, they have admitted that nothing can be done to force the site to remove the content although some victims were attempting legal action.
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Shaner wrote: At the very least, if a business was serious, RFD would have to spend money defending itself in court, and I imagine RFD would rather just delete the content than spend money on lawyers.
Exactly. RFD is not going to lose clients/income due to deleting the content, so it would be counterproductive to challenge it in court. Yes, some members will be mad about the deleted thread. But they aren't going to stop using RFD because of it.

It would help if admins explained that the thread was deleted due to threat of legal action though. at least members would know that there is some transparency.
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I think a bunch of you should read Michele Mandel's column in yesterdays Sun. It tackles the changes happening in the online world in regards to libel, defamation, etc. This past week the Ontario Court of Appeal overturned a lower court ruling that dismissed a blogger's libel complaint because it appeared on the net. ;) That case is now going to trial. The forum owners have already spent $50k and now more that it's going to trial.

Here's the link... http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/17/ma ... efame-game
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CSK'sMom wrote: I think a bunch of you should read Michele Mandel's column in yesterdays Sun. It tackles the changes happening in the online world in regards to libel, defamation, etc. This past week the Ontario Court of Appeal overturned a lower court ruling that dismissed a blogger's libel complaint because it appeared on the net. ;) That case is now going to trial. The forum owners have already spent $50k and now more that it's going to trial.

Here's the link... http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/17/ma ... efame-game
Interesting. But that situation is a lot different from the Brampton flooring one. Nobody is lying here in the RFD thread.
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the thread was removed due to RFD receiving an a affidavit from the company. They went about having the thread removed in the proper fashion. There is nothing we could do.

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