Automotive

Why ICE (petrol/gas/diesel) cars are garbage

  • Last Updated:
  • Jul 21st, 2018 5:07 pm
Deal Addict
Feb 19, 2017
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Andro wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 10:15 am
With every freedom comes some responsibility. Adults can generally understand this concept. You are free to do as you please, within the law, but one would think a rational human being strives for more than just a bare minimum. Human life evolved beyond basic survival and consumption.

As a fellow Canadian you should understand these concepts very well.
I most certainly do, but you shouldn't apply your standards of what the bare minimum is. I enjoy my life to the maximum I can, you can consider it wasteful, or basic, or whatever it is you desire. Do I like to burn gas in big car? God yes. Do I toss whatever I want in the garbage? Hell yes. Do I eat a lot of meat? T-bone steaks every week! Do I care that my house has basically gravel for a garden? Absolutely not.

So ya I enjoy all that, I also enjoy helping my elderly neighbors at my cottage cut and split wood at the cottage so they can still be able to live there during the spring and fall. I help them carry heavy loads to and from their boats if needed, heck I'll weed their damn gardens if they need it. I may not give two hells about what you find important and you may not give two hells what I find important but the fact is everyone lives their lives their own way and you should learn to respect that. You drive a Nissan Leaf? Good for you. I drive a V8 from 2006, well good for me. I hope we both enjoy our cars and I don't fault you for having that opportunity.

Everyone gets through life their own way and how they want. I don't need to help my elderly neighbors, but I want to so I do. I don't need to drive a V8 gas guzzler, but I want to so I do. Are these bare minimum things? Sure. At least I think so, maybe others wouldn't. But they're free to do what they want and I'm free to do what I want so I will. Stop judging start living :)
RFD is love. RFD is life. I wish I had an RFDer for a wife.
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Mar 22, 2004
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LoANeal wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 11:10 am
I most certainly do, but you shouldn't apply your standards of what the bare minimum is. I enjoy my life to the maximum I can, you can consider it wasteful, or basic, or whatever it is you desire. Do I like to burn gas in big car? God yes. Do I toss whatever I want in the garbage? Hell yes. Do I eat a lot of meat? T-bone steaks every week! Do I care that my house has basically gravel for a garden? Absolutely not.

So ya I enjoy all that, I also enjoy helping my elderly neighbors at my cottage cut and split wood at the cottage so they can still be able to live there during the spring and fall. I help them carry heavy loads to and from their boats if needed, heck I'll weed their damn gardens if they need it. I may not give two hells about what you find important and you may not give two hells what I find important but the fact is everyone lives their lives their own way and you should learn to respect that. You drive a Nissan Leaf? Good for you. I drive a V8 from 2006, well good for me. I hope we both enjoy our cars and I don't fault you for having that opportunity.

Everyone gets through life their own way and how they want. I don't need to help my elderly neighbors, but I want to so I do. I don't need to drive a V8 gas guzzler, but I want to so I do. Are these bare minimum things? Sure. At least I think so, maybe others wouldn't. But they're free to do what they want and I'm free to do what I want so I will. Stop judging start living :)
Go post that same message in this thread: why-evs-garbage-2206607/
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May 24, 2008
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LoANeal wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 11:10 am
I most certainly do, but you shouldn't apply your standards of what the bare minimum is. I enjoy my life to the maximum I can, you can consider it wasteful, or basic, or whatever it is you desire. Do I like to burn gas in big car? God yes. Do I toss whatever I want in the garbage? Hell yes. Do I eat a lot of meat? T-bone steaks every week! Do I care that my house has basically gravel for a garden? Absolutely not.

So ya I enjoy all that, I also enjoy helping my elderly neighbors at my cottage cut and split wood at the cottage so they can still be able to live there during the spring and fall. I help them carry heavy loads to and from their boats if needed, heck I'll weed their damn gardens if they need it. I may not give two hells about what you find important and you may not give two hells what I find important but the fact is everyone lives their lives their own way and you should learn to respect that. You drive a Nissan Leaf? Good for you. I drive a V8 from 2006, well good for me. I hope we both enjoy our cars and I don't fault you for having that opportunity.

Everyone gets through life their own way and how they want. I don't need to help my elderly neighbors, but I want to so I do. I don't need to drive a V8 gas guzzler, but I want to so I do. Are these bare minimum things? Sure. At least I think so, maybe others wouldn't. But they're free to do what they want and I'm free to do what I want so I will. Stop judging start living :)
Do you believe this planet has limited resources to sustain life? Should be a simple yes/no answer.
4 years of pain for Ontario...
Deal Guru
Mar 22, 2004
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Whoaness wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 10:03 am
It will take some time, but once we figured out how to efficiently build Solid State Batteries, the range and recharge time will be massively improved while avoiding environmental impact with battery manufacturing.
I don't think these Solid State Batteries will be ready for mass production anytime soon. I'm thinking it could take a few decades to reach that point. Until then, manufacturers will stick to what is proven.
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Mar 22, 2004
11213 posts
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retrothing wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 3:53 pm
Electric cars seem like a wonderful idea while their market share is relatively small. However, there are significant problems:

1. Governments will be forced to replace gasoline taxes with new electric vehicle taxes to cover the cost of building and maintaining roads,

2. The power grid already experiences unsustainable load during cold and warm spells. Adding a few million EV quick chargers to the grid will require billions of dollars spent on infrastructure just to keep the system functioning.

3. EVs are dirty to manufacture. The batteries require rare earth elements that are in short supply or from conflict zones.

4. Personal vehicles are unsustainable. We should be investing in effective mass transit systems, not underused metal boxes that sit in driveways or parking lots 90% of the time and have to be replaced every decade. The push to replace ICE engines with electric is a bit like watching Victorian-era travellers attempt to replace their horses with steam powered ponies. It doesn't resolve the underlying problem.
EV's have a VERY SMALL market share. By your logic, we all should stop and ban Smartphones, cameras, laptops, Apple products, anything with a Li-Ion battery, because they contain "rare earth elements" you have suggested coming from those same places because those devices have a far higher market share. Why you need to single out EVs and forget the rest is beyond me.
Member
Jun 1, 2017
221 posts
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radeonboy wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 12:43 pm
EV's have a VERY SMALL market share. By your logic, we all should stop and ban Smartphones, cameras, laptops, Apple products, anything with a Li-Ion battery, because they contain "rare earth elements" you have suggested coming from those same places because those devices have a far higher market share. Why you need to single out EVs and forget the rest is beyond me.
I take it you agree then with his other points? Because these are all legitimate points. What happens when the EV's are everywhere? Then it won't be such a small percentage but I guess looking at it the way you do kind of makes you short sighted.

How do you suggest correcting these issues as the EV "takes over" the market?
Member
Dec 19, 2015
418 posts
213 upvotes
Calgary, AB
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
I feel there should a separate thread on the ICE cars

So why are these dinosaurs bad you may ask?

1. Unsustainable polluters
- While many may not care about environment it is still an important point.
- Some may argue that production of EV and some forms of electricity may pollute as well, which may be true. However, at the end of the day ICE cars pollute MORE than EVs.
- Nitrogen oxides (NOx) coming from diesel garbage contributes to worldwide premature deaths and has a direct impact on people's respiratory system and other bodily functions. It can cause breathing problems, headaches, chronically reduced lung function, eye irritation, loss of appetite, corroded teeth, and much more. Indirectly damages the ecosystems people and animal rely on (plants/animals). Last I read a few years back it is estimated that a minimum of 38,000 people a year die early due to diesel emissions. And more to this it adds to long term illnesses, lost work days because of health, and some children will choke and die because of this crap in the air. (contributed by radeonboy)
Largely agreed, it also has the benefit of moving most pollutants out of cities and away from population centres. It's not completely rosy though. Particulates come from many sources in cars, including tires. The overall lifetime pollution cost varies significantly throughout North America, if your electricity is produced mostly from renewables, gas and nuclear it's a net positive. Conversely there are a number of states in the US that have an over reliance on coal for electricity generation. In those locations BEV actually have a lifetime CO2 emissions rate of more than the equivalent ICE vehicle.
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
2. Performance
- while *some* ICE cars may have impressive 0-60 times, their overall real world performance is poor compared to EVs
- most EVs should be able to take down even performance M/R/AMG/Type R/etc. in regular traffic condition
- EVs have performance where it counts, around the city. You press and pedal and go, no nonsense of putting into S (or other sport mode), engaging launch control, or making sure you are in the right power band. EVs have 100% torque everywhere.
- Many, if not most, ICE cars have poor weight distribution due to engine location and other components. At the same time pretty much all EVs have optimal weight distribution as there is no engine weight and battery is located at the bottom, giving most (if not all) EVs that perfect 50/50 weight distribution
- It is much easier to pass other cars in EV than ICE. Just press (or floor) the pedal and your are done. ICE would generally require a slight (or major) engine/transmission/turbo hesitation, preventing you from instantly passing the other car.
"Real world road performance" means most vehicles are just as good as each other. Realistically your Civic and your leaf are going to get to the same place at the same time, same with your Model S and 5 Series, same with handling. Your performance arguments are largely based on track use, where people are happy to set things up to get the fastest time. If they aren't then may I suggest you stay off the road and leave it to the safe drivers? :p There are pros and cons to both, on roads (as I don't really care about track) there's basically no performance benefit to either, rather it's a preference of the drivers driving style and the manufacturers choices (engine size etc).

"Its much easier to pass other cars in EV than ICE?" Hows that? It's going to depend on a myriad of factors, including engine/motor size for one. For road use, unless you're really pushing an overtake tight this is a non issue.

That said, for road use the real benefit over ICE vehicles is the one pedal driving style. That isn't exclusive to BEV's though, PHEVs can have that too.
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
3. Cost
- Now, many may argue that EVs cost more initially and while that partially may be true they pretty much cost you almost nothing to drive and maintain
- there is almost zero maintenance, mostly consisting of battery test every few years and tire rotations
- ICE on the other hand have maintenance cost, such as oil change, spark plugs, and are more prone to failures due to multiple moving engine/transmission/drive terrain parts
- Of course, all ICE cars need GAS to drive and it is not cheap. Most also need premium gas, which costs even more
- EVs do need electricity to run, which only costs fraction of the gas cost. However, a prudent EV owner mostly charges at FREE charging locations. Many are available, even with Level 3 charging
There are plenty of things to maintain on a BEV (and even moreso on the PHEV), that's why BEVs still have service intervals. The transition to BEV isn't going to stop rust and steering issues (for example). The service of a modern ICE involves cleaning door seals, swapping filters and doing an oil change (which is around $30 if done at home). Tesla vehicles need a battery coolant change (IIRC after 4 years) way before I need to worry about transmission fluids (250k) or spark plugs (160k). There is likely to be a small benefit for EV's however with breakdown issues, they shouldn't have drive-train issues as often as ICE vehicles.
Do not change or top up the Battery coolant
or brake fluid. Tesla service technicians replace
fluids at the regularly scheduled service
intervals:
• Brake fluid. Every 2 years or 25,000 miles
(40,000 km), whichever comes first.
• Battery coolant. Every 4 years or
50,000 miles (80,000 km), whichever
comes first.
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/fil ... _en_us.pdf

Brake fluid far more often than most ICE vehicle, presumably because of regenerative braking?

Most vehicles don't need "premium" gas, in fact very few actually require premium. Some people "feel" like it makes a difference though, even if science shows it doesn't.

The cost of electricity varies significantly across the country, with the cost per mile for something like a leaf being only half the cost of the equivalent Civic (see the other thread). That changes with high performance vehicles with large engines, but at the same time the initial outlay will be higher too. It's also worth remembering that much of that price differential is down to tax on gas that isn't present on electric. With a transition to BEV's the government is going to have to make up that tax shortfall somewhere else. Increased registration costs, pay per mile, increased tax on electricity?

Cost is a major factor at the moment, and without rebates the cost is more for most people at this point. That's likely to change in a few years however when battery costs go down and there is more competition. I'm predicting around 3-5 years (although the new Hyundai/Kia may be pretty close).
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
4. Obnoxious exhaust/engine sound
- some may like this part and shoot of their fart cannons, but most members of the society *over the age of 18* do not appreciate these goofs. No one wants to hear your machine gun going off.
- In addition, it is very easy to tell when someone is gunning it in ICE, where EV is whisper quite even when pedal to the floor
Many of those issues are actually illegal (same for coal rolling). Enforcement of the law may be a better option for this.

What's the betting to that when BEV's become commonplace people will start making them louder/more obnoxious too. Jaguar already point out the specific noise of their I Pace for example.

Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
5. Convenience
- ICE cars cannot drive in HOV lane unless they meet their restrictions (min people or completely banned out of them at traffic time). On the other hand EV can be in those lanes at ALL times without any restrictions. This could be a big deal to some that commute in traffic
- Summer times means no idling in certain location, so your ICE needs to be shut off or a ticket is due. EVs never idle as they don't have an engine and once stopped no idling would happen.
HOV lanes are very specific to certain locations, but that is a positive, same with many of the low/no emissions zones in cities around the world (London/Paris). That is a benefit, although remains to be seen how long it will last when they become popular as they're all designed as perks for EV's while reducing congestion in city areas. If everyone has an EV congestion is going to be an issue again and they'll remove that perk.

Many ICE cars have auto start/stop tech. Not as good as BEV but it negates most of the issue with idling.
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
- Some argue that EVs are pain in the ass to charge as you need to plug them in at home. I would argue the opposite. Charging at home is as easy as plugging in your cellphone and is rather convenient that going to gas station when you need to refuel. In addition, going to gas station may mean waiting in line, sometimes this may also include an interaction with not the most pleasant members of the society. There is also a possibility of being mugged in certain areas + scammed by some cashier while using your credit/debit card (happened to me once)
- Overall ICE cars are pain the ass to refuel, as compared to EV
Charging at home is a big benefit, but it's negated by the time it takes to charge and whether you can actually charge at home. You obviously have a garage (like me) but many don't. Like most things ICE/EV it's very circumstance dependent and what is a benefit for some is not a benefit for others. Neither tech is the golden bullet.

I have a fuel station 300m from my home and have never had to queue there so it's a minimal issue for me, and hydrocarbons are beneficial for me at the moment because the charge time is significantly longer than refuel time.

"ICE cars are a pain to refuel compared to EV". I can go to any fuel station, swipe my card and begin fuelling. That's not the case for EV's at the moment, with the myriad of connection and charger types. They're far less common than fuel stations and you're more likely to have to go out of your way to find one than a fuel station. It may be less of a hassle for you, but that doesn't translate for everyone. Currently EV is more of a hassle for the majority than ICE, especially if you live outside of Toronto. That may well change in the future with the proliferation of charging points (most of which will take most of the economic benefit out of BEV) at existing fuel stations and fast food locations.
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
- In the summer your ICE car gets quite hot due to engine heat and once parked in the garage will create an *oven like* environment in there. EVs do not suffer from this, as there is no engine, hence no heat produced from it. I know this from personal comparison.
Honestly never found this an issue, but then I have a triple garage with 10 foot ceilings so it would take a lot of heat to change the temperature by a noticeable amount.
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
- Due to the whisper quiet nature of EV they are better cars for families with small children or pets. My dog hates driving ICE due to sound and lack of smoothness. ICE cars have transmissions which are jerky and certainly not as smooth as no transmission driving in EV. She loves driving in EV as its quiet, has stadium style seats at back (better visibility for her), and the car has the smoothest driving so my dog does not fly around the car. I can imagine this would be very similar with small children too.
This is very vehicle dependent. Some vehicles have very loud engines (poor sound proofing between the engine compartment and cab or just plain loud engines) while in others wind and road noise are far louder than the engine (I have a vehicle with the latter, unless you accelerate hard, just like the I Pace for example).

My ICE vehicle has stadium style seats. I love the fully flat floor, it's really useful. They're not unique to BEV, but are more common, especially for sedans and hatchbacks. The smoothness can be a benefit, but how much will depend on the vehicle being driven. I do like the idea of not having a gearbox though, it would be nice, not that driving an auto is particularly taxing anyway.
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
- EVs can be driven with one pedal. Press pedal to accelerate, release to decelerate. ICE needs at least 2(gas+brake, in auto), sometimes 3+shifting (gas+brake+clutch pedal+constant shifting, in manual) pedals to operate. This may not sound like a big deal at first, but try both in city driving (especially in traffic) and you will immediately know that EV is much less taxing to drive in those conditions.
As mentioned above this is actually a fairly big benefit, although again it depends on preference. Some people don't like it.

Same with the benefit of not having a manual gearbox. A lot of people, especially in europe, like changing gears. In North America if you're driving a manual it's almost certainly because you specifically chose to do so.
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
- ICE cars need warm up before going, especially in winter. Many may argue that is not true, but the reality is that when you turn on ICE car, especially after longer stay, you need to wait at least 30s so that the engine would turn over and oil would pass through the engine. Doing otherwise would make your car feel like a slow slug without much power. In addition, avoiding to do so may ultimately mean problems down the road. In comparison, you just turn ON EV with button and go right away. There is no warm up, as there is no engine/components to warm up
This is a bit of myth, and again it's going to be very dependent on the vehicle and the use case.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 9b16efdafb
Auto experts today say that you should warm up the car no more than 30 seconds before you start driving in winter. "The engine will warm up faster being driven," the EPA and DOE explain. Indeed, it is better to turn your engine off and start it again than to leave it idling.
Perhaps you used to drive an old carburetor engined vehicle before you switched to BEV?

It is usually worth waiting 10-15 seconds until the engine revs drop before pulling off it it's completely cold though, which coincidentally is almost exactly the same amount of time it takes for my garage door to open.

So yes, it is a benefit, but it's negligible at best for most people.
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
- Preconditioning temperature without use of the engine. Means I can do it at home in a closed garage without the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning. Can also schedule to precondition it to a known departure time. Very handy in winter and hot summer days (contributed by seafish)
This is going to be one of the most debatable points based on specific usage patterns.

I love the idea of preconditioning the cabin before I go, and not have to idle the engine to do it, HOWEVER there are a myriad of caveats you need to consider before deciding if EVs show a positive or negative for this.

If you're leaving from a garage and plugged into power then it's certainly a benefit. No idling in a garage stinking yourself out if you did it with an ICE vehicle.

If you're leaving from an outdoor/open area with a plug/or you have plenty of range to get home/destination then it's basically neutral. The ICE vehicle can be remote started to heat/cool the cab just as the EV can.

If you're leaving from an outdoor/open area without a plug or you don't have the range to get to home/destination without charging then the ICE vehicle takes the lead due to the greater range ICE vehicles have over BEVs at the moment.

For a commuter the former and middle points may be most pertinent. For me (I take public transport to work and most city trips) the first and third are major factors, so it would benefit me at some times (plugged in, in a garage) but negated at others (sat in carpark tens of miles from the nearest charger and potentially hundreds from home).

Scheduling is not an EV specific option either. I can do it on my ICE vehicle, along with most vehicles that have an app. I can also see how much range (fuel) I have and set the temperature I want the cabin be.
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
6. Buying ICE car means buying GAS/DIESEL for it, which means supporting its ultimate source.
- This ultimately means that whether you like or not, you support gas company, which supports the refinery, which supports the original source/country of origin.
- Why is this bad? Well, some GAS/DIESEL produced comes from dictatorship or *dictatorship style* countries (ex. Russia, Saudi Arabia, USA etc.) who pretty much abuse their society members and/or wage wars around the world by using YOUR money. Whether you like it or not, YOU may support state sponsored terrorism and/or their dictatorship regime.
- gas companies like to gouge their consumers and there is nothing you can do about it, you must pay. No, Doug Ford is not going to save you. The only realistic solution is to get an ev or not drive, drive less.
Again, another contentious issue. Much of the hydrocarbon consumed in Canada is produced in Canada (partly dependent where in the country you are), so rather than propping up a despotic regime you're propping up the Canadian economy...

Conversely materials that go into batteries may well come from despotic countries and expolited populations. An example being Cobalt, important in batteries. More than half comes from the DRC where many children are used to mine it and large proportions come from illegal mines.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cobalt-chi ... stigation/

Russia and the Philippines are big producers of Nickel, another important element for battery production.
https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable ... -batteries

This is an issue with all our resources, not just cobalt or oil. Blood diamonds are another widely known example, but extraction of things like Lithium and iron aren't all roses and light either. Large open cast mines (where many of our resources come from) are arguably more environmentally damaging than the actual extractive part of hydrocarbons. Unfortunately humans make a mess of the environment no matter what we do, especially if it involves money.

That's not to say they are worse, just that a move from oil is not going to solve the worlds problems, it's just going to exchange most of them for others.

Most gas companies don't usually gouge consumers, contrary to popular belief. There isn't much profit in retail sales of petrol/diesel and the price of oil is based on supply/demand, like all resources (including Lithium and Cobalt, the prices of which have shot up recently because of increased demand). It's unlikely they do an more than electricity companies at the very least.
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 12:50 pm
7. Driving ICE car may mean driving aggressively/unsafe/rude
- EVs push their owners to drive them efficiently and conserve, prolonging range and ultimately promoting safe driving (lower speed, less weaving in out, anticipating with regen braking)
- ICE cars, especially with obnoxious exhausts, beg to be revved out, which generally means speeding and aggressive driving.
- Overall ICE cars may make terrible drivers, while EVs make polite and law abiding drivers. I know it made a difference in my driving style for sure.
- Fart cannon pilots also create obnoxious atmosphere for everyone around them, while EV is whisper quiet and does not disturb/stress anyone around them. This ultimately may mean less road rage, accidents, etc.
This contradicts your performance points. Fast acceleration and braking will wear down the range, you're right, so your interpretation of that as a benefit is a very glass half full viewpoint.

It's also contradicted by insurance data.

[/quote]https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/04/el ... to-insure/
Helge Leiro Baastad, CEO of Gjensidige — one of Norway’s largest insurance agencies — tells Bergens Tidende that hybrid and electric cars are involved in more accidents than conventional cars, which in Norway usually means cars with diesel engines. His company has looked at the stats from several thousand accidents that occurred between 2012 and 2017.
Taking the arguments in other parts of your post, you could flip that argument and state that EV's make more dangerous drivers - they "accelerate faster", giving people the exhilaration of G force moreso than ICE vehicles, causing more dangerous driving and objectively more accidents. That's unlikely to be the real story though, realistically it's going to depend on the vehicle (the leaf/Civic comparison with similar performance specs, or the Model S in ludicrous mode?) and the person driving it. If they're an obnoxious driver in an ICE it's unlikely they aren't going to continue being an obnoxious driver in the equivalent BEV.

Overall, as in the "Why EVs are garbage", it really depends on what you want from a vehicle and what your usage case is as to whether an EV or an ICE vehicle is a better option for you. Currently ICE vehicles make more sense for the majority of the population (because of range, cost, convenience) but that will probably change in future as prices come down and range/charging locations increase. Both types of vehicles have their benefits and negatives and neither is going away for the foreseeable future.

The rampant fanboyism on both sides is rather tiresome though, just as the fanboyism of certain vehicle types gets boring fast too, especially when people use unfounded arguments to "make their case".
Jr. Member
Mar 3, 2012
151 posts
83 upvotes
Montreal, QC
Andy34 wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 1:06 pm


There are plenty of things to maintain on a BEV (and even moreso on the PHEV), that's why BEVs still have service intervals. The transition to BEV isn't going to stop rust and steering issues (for example). The service of a modern ICE involves cleaning door seals, swapping filters and doing an oil change (which is around $30 if done at home). Tesla vehicles need a battery coolant change (IIRC after 4 years) way before I need to worry about transmission fluids (250k) or spark plugs (160k). There is likely to be a small benefit for EV's however with breakdown issues, they shouldn't have drive-train issues as often as ICE vehicles.


https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/fil ... _en_us.pdf

Brake fluid far more often than most ICE vehicle, presumably because of regenerative braking?
please check this:

https://www.tesla.com/Support/maintenance-plans-ms-mx
Give you an idea of how much it cost.

factor your gas your pay each year and compare the chart they have on their website.
Member
Dec 19, 2015
418 posts
213 upvotes
Calgary, AB
deadtorights wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 1:19 pm
please check this:

https://www.tesla.com/Support/maintenance-plans-ms-mx
Give you an idea of how much it cost.

factor your gas your pay each year and compare the chart they have on their website.
For some reason that specific link makes you log in. This one doesn't

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/support/Maintenance-plans

And is the reason I said what I said. It costs more to service a Tesla than a BMW ICE vehicle.

Can you provide a bit more explanation as to what you're trying to say, so we can have a reasoned debate.

I spend $1500 a year on fuel (for a large vehicle) and shouldn't have to touch my engine/drivetrain for around 10 years. Now tell me if the up front uplift of an EV is worth it right now? (I'll give you a hint. No where near).
Member
Dec 19, 2015
418 posts
213 upvotes
Calgary, AB
NoPistons wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 8:12 pm
What about producing EV's ? What about waste batteries after they went past their usefulness ? What about the electricity that's being produced to power your car ?

Here is a good article

https://www.dw.com/en/how-eco-friendly- ... a-19441437
The "waste" batteries can be used in less energy dense applications. Many will become cells in grid storage applications, where space and weight aren't a premium.

It really isn't as big an issue as many people make out, although there will undoubtedly be some unintended consequences of a transition to batteries, there is with every advancement.
Member
Dec 19, 2015
418 posts
213 upvotes
Calgary, AB
Andro wrote:
Jul 11th, 2018 8:45 pm
Hard to respond to all your concerns in one post, but I'll try.

1. No matter how dirty my electricity was on that day, your ice car using fuel was worse. I actually did charging from solar on many occasions. Can you do that in your ice? Regarding production. As I said before no matter how dirty it was, your ice is worse in its lifetime. But here is a mostly green production vehicle, bmw i3



2. Large family. Tesla makes SUV for you. How large is large for you? Most ice cars have same capacity as ev or less.
3. Towing a jetski. Good for you. Sell the jetski and save some money or, here is some Tesla towing for you
The issue is not whether they can physically tow anything, but the range restrictions when they do.

Towing a basic trailer can halve the Model X's range. Having to refuel every 120 miles will be a pain in the ass if you're going on a long distance camping trip (which isn't exactly an uncommon application of vehicles). Add a roof rack or box and you lose 30% of your normal range.

This is something that can be solved by copious use of extra batteries, but that means more weight and greater vehicle size to fit the batteries in. That again will probably be fixed by changing tech as well (solid state batteries), but they aren't here or now, so for many people BEV's aren't practical and won't be for a while yet.

Just dismissing this issue is not the answer.
Jr. Member
Mar 3, 2012
151 posts
83 upvotes
Montreal, QC
Andy34 wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 1:32 pm
For some reason that specific link makes you log in. This one doesn't

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/support/Maintenance-plans

And is the reason I said what I said. It costs more to service a Tesla than a BMW ICE vehicle.

Can you provide a bit more explanation as to what you're trying to say, so we can have a reasoned debate.

I spend $1500 a year on fuel (for a large vehicle) and shouldn't have to touch my engine/drivetrain for around 10 years. Now tell me if the up front uplift of an EV is worth it right now? (I'll give you a hint. No where near).
Good for you to spend 1500 on gas alone. Hope you enjoy waiting on the gas line before the price increase.

you spend 1500$ a year. how much Tesla service plan for 1 year? Go check and you will see the price is lower.

YOU SHOULDN'T touch engine or drivetrain.
How long your BMW warranty on the motor if it break?

BMW Limited Warranties

Automobile Warranty Coverage
Warranty Summary Years / Kms
New Car Limited Warranty 4 years / 80,000 km
No-Charge Scheduled Maintenance 4 years / 80,000 km
Limited Emissions Control Warranty
Specific Control Devices 8 years / 130,000 km
Component Warranty 4 years /80,000 km
Emissions Performance 2 years /40,000 km

Tesla S and X warranty have 8 years on battery and drivetrain with unlimited millage.
For model 3:
Vehicles with Standard Range Battery - 8 years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
Vehicles with Long Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles (192,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.

Enjoy your BMW. Hope it doesn't fail after 4 years.
Member
Dec 19, 2015
418 posts
213 upvotes
Calgary, AB
Sorry but your post makes absolutely no sense at all.
deadtorights wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 2:02 pm
Good for you to spend 1500 on gas alone. Hope you enjoy waiting on the gas line before the price increase.
As far as I'm aware that's not a particularly high cost for fuel, but it is an example of how much I could save going BEV. Realistically I'm looking at in the range of $700 a year saving. So in 10 years that's around a $7000 saving on fuel. That'll go a long way towards buying a Model X LR, or more precisely it won't, at all.
deadtorights wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 2:02 pm
you spend 1500$ a year. how much Tesla service plan for 1 year? Go check and you will see the price is lower.
Why are you comparing cost of fuel to cost of a service plan?
deadtorights wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 2:02 pm
YOU SHOULDN'T touch engine or drivetrain.
How long your BMW warranty on the motor if it break?
My BMW? I don't own a BMW. I'm using BMW as an example for those that insist that servicing an EV is magically cheaper. It's not, although it depends on the vehicle. Leafs are serviced for free.

I own a Ford, which costs a lot less to service at a main dealer, and a WV, which costs a lot less to service too.
deadtorights wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 2:02 pm
BMW Limited Warranties

Automobile Warranty Coverage
Warranty Summary Years / Kms
New Car Limited Warranty 4 years / 80,000 km
No-Charge Scheduled Maintenance 4 years / 80,000 km
Limited Emissions Control Warranty
Specific Control Devices 8 years / 130,000 km
Component Warranty 4 years /80,000 km
Emissions Performance 2 years /40,000 km

Tesla S and X warranty have 8 years on battery and drivetrain with unlimited millage.
For model 3:
Vehicles with Standard Range Battery - 8 years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
Vehicles with Long Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles (192,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
And? Warranties vary depending on manufacturer as anything else, as already explained. That said, 100k miles is a pretty standard drivetrain warranty for ICE vehicles.
deadtorights wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 2:02 pm
Enjoy your BMW. Hope it doesn't fail after 4 years.
I don't own a BMW.

Presumably you're claiming that even with the current initial price of an EV it should be cheaper in the long run, but so far haven't provided any evidence of that, rather just gone off on a tangent unrelated to the point being made.
Deal Addict
Feb 19, 2017
1279 posts
675 upvotes
Little Tim wrote:
Jul 12th, 2018 12:00 pm
Do you believe this planet has limited resources to sustain life? Should be a simple yes/no answer.
Well duh of course it has limited resources. There's finite space and materials on this planet.

Do I believe we will ever consume them all in my, my child's, my grandchild's, etc's lifetimes? No. To be fair I doubt we'll ever fully consume them all before we reach a technological point where we can harvest resources elsewhere in the solar system. Humanity has technologically advanced faster and unlocked more resources in the last 30 years than any other time in our history and that is only accelerating really. It's like 15 years ago (approx) we used to talk about Peak Oil, where we would consume more than we produce and the economy would explode or whatever. Well guess what technology advanced and we found ways to unlock more resources (oil in this case) than ever before. Even Cobalt now is a fairly rare resource, with something like 50% of it being sourced from the DRC, which is just super, but as EV usage explodes and prices continue to climb for the resource I'm sure yet another technology will emerge to find, extract, or process more sources. It's how humanity works. Or hell we'll invent a different type of battery that uses less or uses something more abundant (and goodness willing from a more stable nation). Heck oil prices climbed to catastrophic levels and industry invested in new technological research and experiments to be able to find that product to sell to consumers, it's why capitalism is amazing, everything humanity wants has a dollar figure, and someone is always willing to try and make money off it and thus solves a lot of resource problems.

Really by the time we got to really start worrying about running out of resources is probably centuries away, and I'm sure by then we'll look into resources off our planet and continue consuming more and more as humanity expands. Nothing wrong with it. People want more stuff, they want better lives, they want to eat better, and get out of poverty consuming ever more. We'll find a way to do so, and we probably always will.
RFD is love. RFD is life. I wish I had an RFDer for a wife.

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