2021 - Shopping discussion - Hybrid vs EV

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Aug 29th, 2021 1:27 pm

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Jul 27th, 2021 1:24 pm

delangelo [OP]: Banned; Jun 25, 2019; 163 posts; 212 upvotes; Montreal

Jul 27th, 2021 1:24 pm

2021 - Shopping discussion - Hybrid vs EV

Hi all,

I would like your input on the following dilemma: Hybrid or Electric (EV).

One of the main reason why I hesitate to get an EV is because I just feel that ALL the gouvernement incentives have mainly been gobbed-up by the middleman (aka dealers) or the manufacturer themselves. I don’t think it’s a fair way of doing business, so I really don’t want to throw my money at them as if it did not matter. As a consumers, we should be able to vote with our money and leave them with a big enough unsold stock that will force them to lower the price and finally share part of that 13 000 dollars of subsidies with the consumer.

On the other hand, I feel like the market is going in another direction which may lead to more expensive fuel (1.40 as i write this in Montréal.). And less resell value towards the end of the life of the véhicule. I usually sell them after 10 years.

I seem to lean towards the hybrid since:
-The overall price is much cheaper, 27k-31k range
-Has more flexibility for long road trips.
-Peace of mind as in never left stranded somewhere.
-while also having the cost savings associated with replacing gas by electricity for everyday usage.

I know that a lot of you RFDers out there do your homework’s when it comes to making big item purchases. So I decided to rely on the combined wisdom of the community in order to make my decision.

Gouvernement subsides :

EV Federal : 5000
HYBRID Federal : 2500
EV Provincial: 8000
HYBRID Provincial: 4000

Some other factors that I need to factor in my decision making:

# of Kilometres per year = 12000
Distance house / work = 50KM round trip.
Charging station work = Yes
Charging station home = No (to be installed)

What I am expecting to get out of this thread:

EV OR hybrid and why
Minimum battery capacity
Minimum range
Other add-ons to consider.

Thanks in advance.

45 replies

Jul 27th, 2021 2:49 pm

matrixfwd: Sr. Member; Oct 4, 2010; 918 posts; 506 upvotes; Surrey

Jul 27th, 2021 2:49 pm

note that not all hybrid vehicles get the rebate for federal. It's only the plug in hybrid isn't it?

+3

Jul 27th, 2021 2:51 pm

Rob_EV: Deal Fanatic; Sep 10, 2008; 9737 posts; 8467 upvotes; Kitchener

Jul 27th, 2021 2:51 pm

matrixfwd wrote: ↑ note that not all hybrid vehicles get the rebate for federal. It's only the plug in hybrid isn't it?

It's the ones that aren't 100% powered by gasoline that qualify.
If it doesn't have a plug, it doesn't qualify for any incentives.

Here's the Federal incentive vehicle list (I don't see many $27-31k vehicles on here as the OP states is the price range):

https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transporta ... ev-program

+1

Jul 27th, 2021 3:05 pm

Rob_EV: Deal Fanatic; Sep 10, 2008; 9737 posts; 8467 upvotes; Kitchener

Jul 27th, 2021 3:05 pm

You should get out there and test drive some. The difference in driving characteristics between something like a Kia Niro PHEV (our least popular vehicle at the CIAS test drive event - I was often stuck taking people out in it) and a Mini Cooper SE Electric and a Tesla Model 3 SR+ is enormous.

We took the Mini Cooper SE out for a 2 day extended test drive in June and had a bunch of fun. Over those two days we discovered some things we liked and some things we didn't. I couldn't believe that my wife actually commented on the handling (compared to the RWD i3 and RWD Model 3 she's used to driving).

https://mini.ca/en/Discover/ElectricExtendedTestDrive

+3

Jul 27th, 2021 3:46 pm

death_hawk: Deal Expert; Aug 22, 2006; 30418 posts; 15910 upvotes

Jul 27th, 2021 3:46 pm

There'll be 2 parts to my argument: Technically correct and logically correct.

Technically correct:
Based on your criteria of 12k KM/year, 50KM round trip, and a charging station at work (assuming level 2, but you seem willing to install one at home as well so this isn't really an issue) even the compliance Model 3 at $39k after incentives would technically work. It only has 151km range which fits within the 50km round trip easily. You could easily regain this while plugged in at work without needing to charge at home.
I personally have a Kia Soul right now that has 150km (more like 120km in the winter) range. It was my first foray into electric cars before I bought my big boy car.
If you go on trips, you'd need a 2nd car, either owning or renting or sharing. This is also me since my primary vehicle before this is a full sized SUV capable of 400km which I kept.
I'm planning on just storage insurance this vehicle and taking out a $40/day insurance for when I need it. There's also car rentals and car shares that I can take advantage of.

Logically correct:
Model 3 standard range plus is $45k. $6k for 400km vs 150km is a no brainer, especially over 10 years. That's $50/month.

As for hybrids.... I wouldn't. I haven't owned a hybrid but I've driven a bunch through car sharing and car rentals. Performance is usually terrible. Plus gas is expensive.
If you're talking about PHEV, based on your criteria it may work. You'd use a bit of gas which is technically a good thing since gas does go stale.
Price is right at like $30ish range. So effectively you're looking at $30 vs $45k.
Since there's still a gas engine, regular maintenance would probably apply, which can add up. You're probably not blowing much on gas based on your criteria.
$15k over 10 years means $1500/year for an EV.

Is this going to be your only car? Do you live in a place near car rentals/car sharing? How often do you exceed 150km?

Do you not have anything else to do rather than argue with strangers on the internet

Nope. That's why I'm on the internet arguing with strangers. If I had anything better to do I'd probably be doing it.

+4

Jul 27th, 2021 3:56 pm

Evil Baby: Deal Expert; Mar 18, 2005; 23486 posts; 4953 upvotes; Niagara Falls

Jul 27th, 2021 3:56 pm

You're likely to get a lot of bias reviews in here, but imo just get the M3 SR+.

IMO (with no evidence to back this up), I'd much rather commit to one system than have both systems and hope nothing goes wrong with either.

Tesla's do have their faults, but they are great cars to drive and imo far superior to the rest of the EV's out there, especially at the M3 price tag.

The SR+ is more than enough for your daily commute and likely enough for your regular road trips unless you do a lot of northern excursions.

The M3 will be more fun to drive than the hybrids as well.

Jul 27th, 2021 3:59 pm

Rob_EV: Deal Fanatic; Sep 10, 2008; 9737 posts; 8467 upvotes; Kitchener

Jul 27th, 2021 3:59 pm

At 12k driving per year, you might be better off buying something like a USED Toyota Camry hybrid. Obviously you're not doing a lot of driving and will only likely save $1000 per year on gasoline by getting a PHEV or BEV.

Jul 27th, 2021 6:42 pm

xrvr: Deal Addict; Sep 30, 2007; 2760 posts; 3617 upvotes; Toronto

Jul 27th, 2021 6:42 pm

Rob_EV wrote: ↑ You should get out there and test drive some. The difference in driving characteristics between something like a Kia Niro PHEV (our least popular vehicle at the CIAS test drive event - I was often stuck taking people out in it)

Plug and drive has a lot of EVs available for test drives.
No sales pressure too.
Rob, its funny how you mentioned CIAS test drives.
I worked at CIAS since 2010, doing IT support.
I still remember the first year they did this in the north building, with 5 or 6 cars.
I think it was 2016. I took a quick ride in Bolt, thinking its OK, but downtown traffic, and seating position like in the minivan, completely disappointed me.
Tesla at the time had a tiny, 30x30 booth at the level 100, exotic cars, with S and X. Or maybe S only.
But it was still super busy.
In later years, I remember the Tesla booth being swamped all the time, meanwhile exotic cars beside them, Ferrari, Lambo, RR, etc., were completely empty with boring car girls looking at their smartphones.
Ah, a sign of the things to come.
After TM3 came out in 2018, Im pretty sure they didn't even bother going to the auto shows anymore.
And why would they? Cars sell themselves, no need for flashy video walls, $2 mln. booths, and pretty girls explaining to you how ICE is forever.

Camping bed for Tesla Model Y

Jul 27th, 2021 9:59 pm

delangelo [OP]: Banned; Jun 25, 2019; 163 posts; 212 upvotes; Montreal

Jul 27th, 2021 9:59 pm

Rob_EV wrote: ↑ It's the ones that aren't 100% powered by gasoline that qualify.
If it doesn't have a plug, it doesn't qualify for any incentives.

Here's the Federal incentive vehicle list (I don't see many $27-31k vehicles on here as the OP states is the price range):

https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transporta ... ev-program

Where do you see the prices on the link that you sent. I looked for pieces at local dealers as well as autotrader as well as other places where they sell cars.

Jul 27th, 2021 10:06 pm

delangelo [OP]: Banned; Jun 25, 2019; 163 posts; 212 upvotes; Montreal

Jul 27th, 2021 10:06 pm

death_hawk wrote: ↑ There'll be 2 parts to my argument: Technically correct and logically correct.

Technically correct:
Based on your criteria of 12k KM/year, 50KM round trip, and a charging station at work (assuming level 2, but you seem willing to install one at home as well so this isn't really an issue) even the compliance Model 3 at $39k after incentives would technically work. It only has 151km range which fits within the 50km round trip easily. You could easily regain this while plugged in at work without needing to charge at home.
I personally have a Kia Soul right now that has 150km (more like 120km in the winter) range. It was my first foray into electric cars before I bought my big boy car.
If you go on trips, you'd need a 2nd car, either owning or renting or sharing. This is also me since my primary vehicle before this is a full sized SUV capable of 400km which I kept.
I'm planning on just storage insurance this vehicle and taking out a $40/day insurance for when I need it. There's also car rentals and car shares that I can take advantage of.

Logically correct:
Model 3 standard range plus is $45k. $6k for 400km vs 150km is a no brainer, especially over 10 years. That's $50/month.

As for hybrids.... I wouldn't. I haven't owned a hybrid but I've driven a bunch through car sharing and car rentals. Performance is usually terrible. Plus gas is expensive.
If you're talking about PHEV, based on your criteria it may work. You'd use a bit of gas which is technically a good thing since gas does go stale.
Price is right at like $30ish range. So effectively you're looking at $30 vs $45k.
Since there's still a gas engine, regular maintenance would probably apply, which can add up. You're probably not blowing much on gas based on your criteria.
$15k over 10 years means $1500/year for an EV.

Is this going to be your only car? Do you live in a place near car rentals/car sharing? How often do you exceed 150km?

This was one of the most comprehensive replies. Well I think for the moment it will be one of two cars. The other one being a Nissan vers Note. (Full tank gives me 600-620 km.

As per how often I do more than 150 KM, I would say a few days in the sommer. And usually those days I could technically use the other car.

+1

Jul 27th, 2021 10:13 pm

delangelo [OP]: Banned; Jun 25, 2019; 163 posts; 212 upvotes; Montreal

Jul 27th, 2021 10:13 pm

xrvr wrote: ↑ Plug and drive has a lot of EVs available for test drives.
No sales pressure too.
Rob, its funny how you mentioned CIAS test drives.
I worked at CIAS since 2010, doing IT support.
I still remember the first year they did this in the north building, with 5 or 6 cars.
I think it was 2016. I took a quick ride in Bolt, thinking its OK, but downtown traffic, and seating position like in the minivan, completely disappointed me.
Tesla at the time had a tiny, 30x30 booth at the level 100, exotic cars, with S and X. Or maybe S only.
But it was still super busy.
In later years, I remember the Tesla booth being swamped all the time, meanwhile exotic cars beside them, Ferrari, Lambo, RR, etc., were completely empty with boring car girls looking at their smartphones.
Ah, a sign of the things to come.
After TM3 came out in 2018, Im pretty sure they didn't even bother going to the auto shows anymore.
And why would they? Cars sell themselves, no need for flashy video walls, $2 mln. booths, and pretty girls explaining to you how ICE is forever.

This would have been a great way to try them. Unfortunately I don’t live in Toronto. I live in MTL.

Jul 28th, 2021 12:19 am

thelastword: Sr. Member; Feb 14, 2010; 906 posts; 910 upvotes; Toronto

Jul 28th, 2021 12:19 am

Go for an EV. You already have an ICE as a backup car so I see no reason to buy a hybrid.
In Quebec the rebates are so juicy that the topic of EV or hybrid wouldn't even come to my mind.
I do suggest the Bolt/ID4/Niro however if you have the money just go for the best of the best; M3.
It all comes down to which one you like most. Watch a few YouTube videos and go to the dealers prepared.
EV owner for four years so if you have any questions ask. Currently I own both an EV and Hybrid.

Jul 28th, 2021 12:49 am

geokilla: Deal Expert; Mar 1, 2008; 17697 posts; 7522 upvotes; Toronto, Ontario

Jul 28th, 2021 12:49 am

Check out the PHEVs. I know Quebec gets most of them as they sell well due to government incentives. We have a Honda Clarity almost 60km range in the summer and 50km range in the winter. We replaced the Michelin Energy Saver with Falken tires for more grip, hence the lower range. Otherwise we used to get 80km range. It was the best driving PHEV at the time and is extremely spacious.

RFD is love. RFD is life.

Jul 28th, 2021 7:44 am

yanksingh: Sr. Member; May 21, 2008; 909 posts; 155 upvotes; Ottawa

Jul 28th, 2021 7:44 am

For PHEV cars, the only way to charge battery is by plugin or does battery charge too while driving the car?

Jul 28th, 2021 7:49 am

thelastword: Sr. Member; Feb 14, 2010; 906 posts; 910 upvotes; Toronto

Jul 28th, 2021 7:49 am

yanksingh wrote: ↑ For PHEV cars, the only way to charge battery is by plugin or does battery charge too while driving the car?

Must plug it in to charge the battery to full. It will work as a hybrid if you don't charge the battery.

Jul 28th, 2021 9:01 am

delangelo [OP]: Banned; Jun 25, 2019; 163 posts; 212 upvotes; Montreal

Jul 28th, 2021 9:01 am

The end price between an EV and a hybrid is still huge. It’s almost 7k-10k

How do you justify the difference in place compared to the plug in hybrids?

Also mind telling me how do they perform in winter?

Jul 28th, 2021 9:07 am

mxzxops: Newbie; Dec 31, 2017; 87 posts; 71 upvotes

Jul 28th, 2021 9:07 am

yanksingh wrote: ↑ For PHEV cars, the only way to charge battery is by plugin or does battery charge too while driving the car?

As stated charge by plugging it in. However if you don't plug it in, it will charge with the regenerative braking. Also our PHEV (Volvo) you can charge the battery with the engine as you drive. The engine drives a generator to charge the battery. So if you wanted, while on the highway get the battery charged for upcoming city driving.

Jul 28th, 2021 9:13 am

Bevatron: Deal Fanatic; Jan 8, 2009; 5301 posts; 3733 upvotes; Ontario

Jul 28th, 2021 9:13 am

yanksingh wrote: ↑ For PHEV cars, the only way to charge battery is by plugin or does battery charge too while driving the car?

Hybrids will charge the battery through regenerative braking and using waste torque (e.g. when going slightly downhill fast on highway).

PHEVs do this plus have the capability to charge the battery from a 120v or 240V AC outlet.

Hybrid and PHEv are types of powertrain - there can be significant differences in design / implementation between brands. For example - transmissions, battery types and size.

Jul 28th, 2021 9:23 am

kronos288: Deal Addict; Jan 19, 2007; 1130 posts; 1094 upvotes

Jul 28th, 2021 9:23 am

I went through a similar dilemma while shopping for a new vehicle for the last month. I test drove the RAV4 Hybrid, Tucson Hybrid, Niro EV, 2018 Model 3, 2021 Model 3, Two Escape Hybrids, and the Mach-E.

In the end....ordered a model 3. Originally we wanted an SUV for our growing family however 95% of the KM will be commuting KM for us. We also have an ICE powered car as our secondary.

We decided against the Hybrid both for the maintenance cost and resale value. Unless you can find a vehicle on the lot right now, you're probably going to wait until 2022 for any orders of the most popular/best value hybrids or phevs. Toyota told me 8-12 weeks for an ordered rav4 hybrid, Hyundai told me 8-12 weeks for a hybrid Tucson (phev Tucson is around the corner), and the rav4 prime is into 2022. Niro EV is the same price as the model 3 with terrible resale value by comparison.

Last edited by kronos288 on Jul 28th, 2021 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jul 28th, 2021 9:24 am

thelastword: Sr. Member; Feb 14, 2010; 906 posts; 910 upvotes; Toronto

Jul 28th, 2021 9:24 am

besmirlikaj6 wrote: ↑ The end price between an EV and a hybrid is still huge. It’s almost 7k-10k

How do you justify the difference in place compared to the plug in hybrids?

Also mind telling me how do they perform in winter?

Basically you get back most of the cost difference from fuel savings and maintenance. Once you own an EV I can guarantee you'll drive your ICE car less.

Just like any other car winter tires helps a lot. In terms of range 400km in summer is like 200km in winter. highway/130km/h/heat on/snowing/-30/fully loaded

PHEV can also work but most cost the same as a EV and remember stated battery range is for best case scenario.

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