Travel

Air Canada sitting on $2.6 billion of passenger money as House of Commons petition to refund passengers gains support.

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Mar 15, 2007
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CuriousC wrote: From the comments section

1600 comments, mostly telling the same thing: this is theft and fraud

If you take the 1600 as a sample size good enough sample for a 2% error margin for a poll, you have right there the general opinion on this: IT IS FRAUD AND THEFT and AC IS NOT LOVED AT ALL (which means they will be in trouble anyway after this)
Image
Not sure where you get those numbers? From this forum? I suspect a good number of those comments are from you and a few other people? LOL

As for Air Canada not being loved....well, Air Canada Named 2019 Airline of The Year by Global Traveler https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2019-12 ... l-Traveler

Air Canada had over 50 million passengers in 2019 so I think there are a lot more satisfied with them and their service than the few on this forum or on the passenger facebook page. https://www.statista.com/statistics/689 ... ir-canada/

Your noting the EU and US are doing so much better refunding but they too are having problems

"The major airlines point out that they’re complying with federal law. They say that since the COVID-19 crisis began, they've allowed consumers to change their travel plans for no fee and have extended the length of time during which credits or vouchers for future travel may be used. "
"CR advocates, who have collected more than 89,000 signatures on a petition demanding cash refunds from airlines, support the proposed legislation. But unless and until it passes, getting your money back may take a little work. " Puts our 30,000 to shame.

https://www.consumerreports.org/returns ... -pandemic/

"EU states back withholding airline passenger refunds" https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-05-04 ... index.html
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namewitheld wrote: Not sure where you get those numbers? From this forum? I suspect a good number of those comments are from you and a few other people? LOL
take you lol somewhere else. Come back after you read my post again
As for Air Canada not being loved....well, Air Canada Named 2019 Airline of The Year by Global Traveler https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2019-12 ... l-Traveler
Guess what my neighborhood believes AC is the worst
https://www.google.com/search?q=airlinn ... +year+2019

Is your Google.com reachable? Do you do any fact checking or you do fact picking?
So far you have two statements that are as off as possible. Should I bother to read the rest of them?
Air Canada had over 50 million passengers in 2019 so I think there are a lot more satisfied with them and their service than the few on this forum or on the passenger facebook page. https://www.statista.com/statistics/689 ... ir-canada/
B$ again, I knew I should not waste my time.
If they had such a strong year where is the money they made last year ? When are they lying, when they say they have no money and they will be bankrupt if they refund or when the say they had a stellar 2019 and they want to buy another Canadian airline

Your noting the EU and US are doing so much better refunding but they too are having problems
"The major airlines point out that they’re complying with federal law. They say that since the COVID-19 crisis began, they've allowed consumers to change their travel plans for no fee and have extended the length of time during which credits or vouchers for future travel may be used. "
"CR advocates, who have collected more than 89,000 signatures on a petition demanding cash refunds from airlines, support the proposed legislation. But unless and until it passes, getting your money back may take a little work. " Puts our 30,000 to shame.

https://www.consumerreports.org/returns ... -pandemic/

"EU states back withholding airline passenger refunds" https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-05-04 ... index.html
[/quote]

Instead of quoting second hand sources that support your view can you point us to a European or US state agency that clearly supports your point of view?
As far as Canada goes yeah let' s have the US EU problems, let's have the government say the airlines must refund and then we will deal with the airlines when the time comes
Last edited by CuriousC on May 30th, 2020 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pete_Coach wrote: A re-post from another thread. This is the protection travelers are getting in other countries.

US is not so quick making airlines give refunds either. They are having the same problems in the US as in Canada.
They have to pass a new law and "If passed, the Cash Refunds for Coronavirus Cancellations Act of 2020 " which may get through the House but the Republican Senate may block it.

"The major airlines point out that they’re complying with federal law. They say that since the COVID-19 crisis began, they've allowed consumers to change their travel plans for no fee and have extended the length of time during which credits or vouchers for future travel may be used. "
"CR advocates, who have collected more than 89,000 signatures on a petition demanding cash refunds from airlines, support the proposed legislation. But unless and until it passes, getting your money back may take a little work. " Puts our 30,000 to shame.

https://www.consumerreports.org/returns ... -pandemic/

Oh and, things are not so wonderful in the EU either. "EU states back withholding airline passenger refunds" https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-05-04 ... index.html
Nice troll bait. That was some talk at the beginning of May. Brussels has held for quite a while now (weeks) that airlines must refund and will face fines if they don't.
And your US statement, that's for refunds if CONSUMERS cancel, on top of mandatory refunds if airlines cancel currently.

Hows the river under your bridge?
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Messerschmitt wrote: Nice troll bait. That was some talk at the beginning of May. Brussels has held for quite a while now (weeks) that airlines must refund and will face fines if they don't.
And your US statement, that's for refunds if CONSUMERS cancel, on top of mandatory refunds if airlines cancel currently.

Hows the river under your bridge?
Trolling...Ha! Didn't write the articles. Just posted them.
"The proposed law would allow airlines to offer vouchers to passengers whose flights were canceled,"
River is flowing just fine thank you :)
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Messerschmitt wrote: Nice troll bait. That was some talk at the beginning of May. Brussels has held for quite a while now (weeks) that airlines must refund and will face fines if they don't.
And your US statement, that's for refunds if CONSUMERS cancel, on top of mandatory refunds if airlines cancel currently.

Hows the river under your bridge?
Face With Tears Of Joy Is he the same person as namewitheld, same type of partisan argumentation and fact picking to support his statements
they are quotig the same link, you would say namewitheld showed up just to relay Pete's posts since I ignore them
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robsaw wrote: Yes, I do agree that AC and Westjet using a reasonable interpretation of law should pay back passengers for flights the airline cancelled. I also agree that forcing the airlines to do so could with reasonable probability trigger insolvency of both AC and Westjet. If you think that will result in a better current and future outcome for Canadian air travel consumers you are likely mistaken - although some people may end up with a refund (perhaps partial) from the airlines.
The Canadian government (read: taxpayers) has bailed out Air Canada numerous times over the decades. This is going to be, if not already given the thousands upon thousands of laid-off employees collecting CERB etc, another case of that. Whether the airlines refund passengers or not, taxpayers are going to be on the hook, yet again, for hundreds of millions or billions of dollars to bale them, and WestJet this time, out. As such, that cost should be spread over the entirety of taxpayers, just like the other $250+ billion that Trudeau's throwing around, rather than having airline customers assuming an additional burden for interest-free financing.

It's difficult to argue that the "new" consumer protection legislation passed in Canada doesn't pale in comparison to that of the US DOT and the EC261/2004 of the EU. The result is an airline industry in Canada that quite effectively calls the shots to the detriment of consumers. For Garneau to publicly take the position he has in supporting the industry over consumers, even if just from an optics perspective, does not cast him or the government in the best light.
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Conquistador wrote: The Canadian government (read: taxpayers) has bailed out Air Canada numerous times over the decades. This is going to be, if not already given the thousands upon thousands of laid-off employees collecting CERB etc, another case of that. Whether the airlines refund passengers or not, taxpayers are going to be on the hook, yet again, for hundreds of millions or billions of dollars to bale them, and WestJet this time, out. As such, that cost should be spread over the entirety of taxpayers, just like the other $250+ billion that Trudeau's throwing around, rather than having airline customers assuming an additional burden for interest-free financing.

It's difficult to argue that the "new" consumer protection legislation passed in Canada doesn't pale in comparison to that of the US DOT and the EC261/2004 of the EU. The result is an airline industry in Canada that quite effectively calls the shots to the detriment of consumers. For Garneau to publicly take the position he has in supporting the industry over consumers, even if just from an optics perspective, does not cast him or the government in the best light.
I agree with your premise. Air Canada, at first a fully government owned airline, then a crown corporation then bailed out at the last epidemic has gotten a lot of government support.
I also have to mention that the government programs ($250 billion worth, or probably much more) are given to almost every company in Canada.
The Canadian passenger rights bill, when introduced, was admonished by consumers groups, passengers and airline alike. No one liked it and few like it yet.
The EU and the US have all given their airlines lots of money to be able to refund (if they do) passengers.
Garneau is a fool, a Trudeau puppet.
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Anyone have any success getting their money back from WestJet or Scotia-Rewards-Travel (read: crooks and scum of an agency!)

Just got an email reply for my MP's office:

Good afternoon ,



I hope this email finds you well. Thank you for getting in touch with MP's office.



I would advise getting in touch with TICO if you booked through a travel agency as your best recourse as they are the agency equipped with handling these requests: https://www.tico.ca/



In regards to flight refunds, I was advised that the Canadian Transport Agency (CTA), which operates at arm's length from Transport Canada, provided guidance on this issue here: https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/statement-vouchers?.



According to the Minister's office, Canadians airlines have had to shut down approximately 85-95% of their networks practically overnight, which is truly an unprecedented situation, and one they could not have foreseen. Our Government is encouraging airlines to take a balanced approach but they may not always be in a position to offer refunds and/or credits on a timely basis, which I understand can put individuals such as yourself in a difficult situation.



I believe you can also file complaint with CTA, however they suspended their services until June 30 due to COVID-19:



https://rppa-appr.ca/file-air-travel-complaint



Please note that this definitely an issue we have flagged to the Minister of Transport’s office. If we hear of any updates on this, I will be happy to share them with you.
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pererac wrote: Anyone have any success getting their money back from WestJet or Scotia-Rewards-Travel (read: crooks and scum of an agency!)

Just got an email reply for my MP's office:

Good afternoon ,.........
Let me guess, your MP is a liberal? Just towing that party line!
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dirtmover wrote:
Let me guess, your MP is a liberal? Just towing that party line!
MP is a liberal.
I also emailed my MPP, who is a conservative. Her office said they'll forward my issue/email to my MP lol

I'm gonna contact the astronaut next...
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sorry if this is old news... but just dissolved flights today with AC reservations...

AC now saying vouchers (instead of refunds which they should but won't) can be broken up across multiple bookings (as opposed to having to use it all up at once), and portions gifted.
adds a bit of value. if only it could be used online.

this whole airline fiasco without any government support (of the passenger) is so disillusioning.
not really in a position to not support the airlines anymore in the future. just gotta accept it for what it is i guess.
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Now that June has rolled around I logged in to check and now have these two options. eCoupon is actually pretty reasonable, I have used them before, once actually to pay for $200 worth on this exact booking when I made it. I think I will just get the ecoupon and call it a day. I do wish to got o Japan still, but my single stop, 12 hour combined flight is now a 2 stop 30 hour option....fml..and like $600 more..
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eblend wrote: I do wish to got o Japan still, but my single stop, 12 hour combined flight is now a 2 stop 30 hour option....fml..and like $600 more..
This is one reason why I think a compromise between full refund on one side and fixed value vouchers on the other is a better alternative. You contracted and paid for a single stop flight to Japan in a particular cabin class. So AC should offer you a coupon that's good for a future single stop or direct flight to Japan in the same cabin class no matter what the airfare may be at that time.

Otherwise what's to stop them from raising the airfare even more in the future such that your eCoupon only gets you part way across the Pacific? And why would any reasonable person assume that AC wouldn't sink that low (or even deeper) in devaluing their commitment to you?
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Well you might see an acceleration in refunds and change of mood
I think the politicians, the business people and the banks are starting to realize that the gun powder needs a spark (see US) and the fire is spreading rapidly (look again)
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CuriousC wrote: There you go...your voucher just lost 30% of its value
Nonsense. As usual.

NAVCAN fees comprise a small percentage of an airline's costs. It's ludicrous to extrapolate a 29.5% increase in NAVCAN fees into the same percentage devaluation of vouchers.

For example, under the current [2016] fee structure, an Airbus A320 full of passengers travelling from Toronto to Vancouver, for example, would pay $1,764.15 in fees to do so, according to a calculator on Nav Canada's website.. An A320 typically seats 150 passengers. Even at 50% capacity due to C-19 distancing that's $24 per passenger. So a 1/3 increase in NAVCAN fees would add a whopping $8 to the airfare, i.e. less than ½%.
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bylo wrote: Nonsense. As usual.

NAVCAN fees comprise a small percentage of an airline's costs. It's ludicrous to extrapolate a 29.5% increase in NAVCAN fees into the same percentage devaluation of vouchers.

For example, under the current [2016] fee structure, an Airbus A320 full of passengers travelling from Toronto to Vancouver, for example, would pay $1,764.15 in fees to do so, according to a calculator on Nav Canada's website.. An A320 typically seats 150 passengers. Even at 50% capacity due to C-19 distancing that's $24 per passenger. So a 1/3 increase in NAVCAN fees would add a whopping $8 to the airfare, i.e. less than ½%.
My bad I did not realize that the cost is shared :-)
Nonsense is what is the increase.
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CuriousC wrote: Nonsense is what is the increase.
No, nonsense is your reading inability. From the article you linked-to but failed to read and/or comprehend:
Nav Canada isn’t allowed to make money but it also has to earn enough to cover costs and with the drastic drop in traffic, the user fees it collects have slowed to a trickle. Since most of its costs are fixed and not influenced significantly by traffic volume, it’s facing a huge shortfall at the current rates, which were based on the record traffic levels recorded in 2018 and early 2019...

Nav Canada says it’s done everything it can to save money but it’s projecting that it will be $242 million CAD short of the minimum revenue level it needs just to borrow enough money to keep operating.
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bylo wrote: No, nonsense is your reading inability. From the article you linked-to but failed to read and/or comprehend:
Your (in)ability to understand the reasoning is not far from mine
The cost should be per aircraft not per passenger. The per passenger cost will be airline's concern
Besides that the charges have been put in place on March 1st when guess what COVID and airline shutdowns were ...a surprise? Nonsense it is
See page 8 https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-an ... 0Final.pdf
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CuriousC wrote: The cost should be per aircraft not per passenger. The per passenger cost will be airline's concern
I already explained that to you and even did the math. Let me try again. More slowly...
1. "an Airbus A320 full of passengers travelling from Toronto to Vancouver, for example, would pay $1,764.15 in fees to do so." That's the per-aircraft fee.
2. Then I looked up the capacity of an A320, "An A320 typically seats 150 passengers."
3. Then I discounted that for C-19, "at 50% capacity due to C-19 distancing."
4. Then I pro-rated it, "that's $24 per passenger."
5 And finally calculated it as a percentage to show just how absurd it is to extrapolate as you did, "So a 1/3 increase in NAVCAN fees would add a whopping $8 to the airfare, i.e. less than ½%."
Besides that the charges have been put in place on March 1st when guess what COVID and airline shutdowns were ...a surprise?
The article you linked-to is dated 31May20. That's two days ago. That's 6 months after the date of the last item you linked. That's 3 months after 01Mar20 and it's 2½ months after C-19 lockdowns began in Canada. So they've had plenty of time to [your words] "guess what COVID and airline shutdowns were."

Moreover the article says, "Most of the increases for various ATC services will come into effect Sept. 1, assuming the proposal survives the 60-day comment period." Now they don't explicitly say what year that "Sept 1." is but I'll place my bet on 2020.

Try again :facepalm:
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