Automotive

Ask me anything about fighting your traffic ticket (Speeding, Parking, etc.)

Deal Guru
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Mar 23, 2008
13006 posts
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Edmonton
BearBullBear wrote: Very unfortunately i got a ticket today for Handheld Device,,, my phone and wallet dropped and it was distracting with my accelerator and brakes so when i stopped at the red light i picked them up, then a cop passed by next lane and suddenly reversed back and said he saw me holding a phone.. made me stop and i told him, i was picking it up as it was on the floor but he did not care and gave me a ticket.. i did not even know picking it up was a violation. He said he saw me on my phone but that's complete lie because i just picked it up and did not use it. and i had a wallet together in my hands.

He drove pass the car so i doubt he saw anything clearly, he wasnt stopped next to me or anything, passed me by almost a car length and reversed back, so i am sure it was a glimpse and he thinks i was texting or something,,, if i violated the law i will pay, but this time it is so unfair, if i picked up my wallet only he wouldnt ticket me, both items were dangerous and it was unfortunate they fell on the ground..

i want to get a paralegal to fight, could you recommend me any company to work with? i got ticketed near Eglinton and Kennedy (scarborough). thank you

*just to add, i had my navigation on as well directing me to next destination, i had no reason whatsoever to use the phone, but i guess he can say i was browsing or something,, cop was a nice person but he did not care and just said i can appeal and go to the court. do you think his car may have a recording? i want to look at it so i can prove him wrong, he said he saw me on my phone but i think he saw my wallet on top of the phone because it's white and he thinks that was a screen turned on, he drove pass my car at like 10+km/h no way he saw anything properly,,,
Before you get all bent out of shape, you need to read the law you’re most likely charged with violating.
78.1 (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway while holding or using a hand-held wireless communication device or other prescribed device that is capable of receiving or transmitting telephone communications, electronic data, mail or text messages. 2009, c. 4, s. 2; 2015, c. 27, Sched. 7, s. 18.
Bold added for emphasis. As soon as you held your device, you were breaking the law. So be very careful what you admit to in court in your effort to fight it. And if you told the officer you were just picking up your phone, you just admitted your guilt.

C
Newbie
Jul 15, 2020
69 posts
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CNeufeld wrote: Before you get all bent out of shape, you need to read the law you’re most likely charged with violating.



Bold added for emphasis. As soon as you held your device, you were breaking the law. So be very careful what you admit to in court in your effort to fight it. And if you told the officer you were just picking up your phone, you just admitted your guilt.

C
You are absolutely right. I did violate it.. i shouldnt have said that to him but it was the truth. I dont want to lie.

Just want to know what my options are now,, if i could get away with lesser fine so demerit points are at least lower and maybe no suspension to save cost.

I am leaning towards xcopper or something. They said demerit points start from ticketed day and due to covid maybe trial will take 14month, cop may not show, or i could reduce days of demerit point to few months...

Anyways i shouldnt have touched it at all. Lesson learnt.
Deal Guru
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Mar 23, 2008
13006 posts
10009 upvotes
Edmonton
BearBullBear wrote: You are absolutely right. I did violate it.. i shouldnt have said that to him but it was the truth. I dont want to lie.

Just want to know what my options are now,, if i could get away with lesser fine so demerit points are at least lower and maybe no suspension to save cost.

I am leaning towards xcopper or something. They said demerit points start from ticketed day and due to covid maybe trial will take 14month, cop may not show, or i could reduce days of demerit point to few months...

Anyways i shouldnt have touched it at all. Lesson learnt.
Keep in mind that demerits don’t matter, unless you’re close to getting you license suspended. Convictions matter. But in your case, pretty much anything is better than the handheld device conviction.

If I was you, I’d probably try to represent myself with an “early resolution meeting”, and see if you can negotiate a deal. As I said, pretty much anything is better than a conviction on this charge. If that fails, then hire a paralegal.

C
Newbie
Jul 15, 2020
69 posts
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CNeufeld wrote: Keep in mind that demerits don’t matter, unless you’re close to getting you license suspended. Convictions matter. But in your case, pretty much anything is better than the handheld device conviction.

If I was you, I’d probably try to represent myself with an “early resolution meeting”, and see if you can negotiate a deal. As I said, pretty much anything is better than a conviction on this charge. If that fails, then hire a paralegal.

C
I see

My understanding was if i fail to negotiate at early resolution i give paralegal less options and they are left with no choices.. i will do more research.
Sr. Member
Mar 16, 2007
502 posts
38 upvotes
BearBullBear wrote: I see

My understanding was if i fail to negotiate at early resolution i give paralegal less options and they are left with no choices.. i will do more research.
If early resolution attempt fails to satisfy your level of fines/points/conviction reduction, then you can still request trial either representing yourself or use a paralegal, and hope the officer does not show up on the day of trial, which means the charge will likely be dismissed, if the officer does show up on the dat of the trail, typically you will still have an opportunity to work out a deal with the Crown prior to the start of the trial process on the day of the trial.
Deal Fanatic
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May 8, 2002
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KL wrote: If early resolution attempt fails to satisfy your level of fines/points/conviction reduction, then you can still request trial either representing yourself or use a paralegal, and hope the officer does not show up on the day of trial, which means the charge will likely be dismissed, if the officer does show up on the dat of the trail, typically you will still have an opportunity to work out a deal with the Crown prior to the start of the trial process on the day of the trial.
More likely is an adjournment if officer does not show, especially if first court date. Cases are not automatically dismissed if officer does not show/cannot show, prosecutor can request adjournment and will likely be granted at first trial date...this will help with your eventual 11b application though
Newbie
Jul 15, 2020
69 posts
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joshmxpx wrote: More likely is an adjournment if officer does not show, especially if first court date. Cases are not automatically dismissed if officer does not show/cannot show, prosecutor can request adjournment and will likely be granted at first trial date...this will help with your eventual 11b application though
so basically, if at early resolution if they allow some kind of reduction i should accept it because last thing i want is being convicted. However if they refuse, i should hire a paralegal then, and then try to fight which is 50/50 chance (too many variables). I shouldnt have said i was picking up my phone to the police, because he told me he was recording it, but i wanted to tell him the truth only.. do you think i should tell the truth at the early resolution? i really dont want suspension or conviction, i have no problem paying the fine though... thank you
Deal Fanatic
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May 8, 2002
5863 posts
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BearBullBear wrote: so basically, if at early resolution if they allow some kind of reduction i should accept it because last thing i want is being convicted. However if they refuse, i should hire a paralegal then, and then try to fight which is 50/50 chance (too many variables). I shouldnt have said i was picking up my phone to the police, because he told me he was recording it, but i wanted to tell him the truth only.. do you think i should tell the truth at the early resolution? i really dont want suspension or conviction, i have no problem paying the fine though... thank you
See what they offer you at early resolution (if anything), if it's not acceptable, take it to trial. Check for errors/discrepancies in disclosure, hope for a no show...

I wouldn't recommend a paralegal, they'll only be able to get the same thing you'd be offered at the early resolution. For a hand held device ticket, there's not really anything they can drop/plead it to unlike a speeding ticket. It'd either be conviction/withdrawal/dismissal, and paralegals typically only do pleas.
Sr. Member
Mar 16, 2007
502 posts
38 upvotes
joshmxpx wrote: More likely is an adjournment if officer does not show, especially if first court date. Cases are not automatically dismissed if officer does not show/cannot show, prosecutor can request adjournment and will likely be granted at first trial date...this will help with your eventual 11b application though
Correct, which is why I qualified with "likely" to be dismissed in my post. About 20 years ago I had the misfortune of losing a case after the case was rescheduled twice, first time when my name wasn't even in the list to go before the court at the courthouse as shown on my notice to appear, second time when the officer was called last minute to attend training just before the trial date and I still couldn't get the case dismissed when the J.P. accepted the Crown's request to adjourn a second time, I went to the court the third time and lost the fight. Wished there was a resource as good as this thread back then that I could have used the Chart of Rights 11b defense!
Newbie
Jun 24, 2013
51 posts
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Toronto, ON
Just wanted to post about a red light ticket I got back in Jan 2020 in case anyone wanted to know how the process is like during COVID.

Jan 12, 2020 - Got caught on camera for failing to stop 3 secs on a right turn on a red light by Danforth & Brimley. [I stopped for 2 secs didn't see anyone and turned - saw the flash and knew that a ticket was probably coming in the mail.] Section code 144.18.1 (in case anyone was wondering).

Jan 23, 2020 - Received the ticket in the camera for $325

Feb 2020 - Mailed in my return slip to say I wanted an early resolution - (aka meet with prosecutor)

Dec 23, 2020 - Got an Early Resolution Meeting Notice to call in to the prosecution #

Jan 25, 2021
- Called in, put on hold for 15 minutes before they had a prosecutor ready
- Had the choices to be transferred to the following telephone lines a) plead guilty b) set trial date (was told if I went to court, they could possibly up the fine to $1k)
- I chose to plead guilty (the prosecutor said I could say I have financial hardship to try to lower the fine)
- She transferred me over to the judges line, where I could hear another person plead guilty as well
- I was next, plead guilty, received a lower fine of $200 & requested for 180 days to pay the fine

Overall, I was not sure if this was the right way to go, but I'm still glad I went to the early resolution meeting, so they could at least lower the amount paid. And lesson learned, to stop a full 3 secs by the red light cameras before making the turn.

Edit: grammar
Last edited by bodycombat78 on Jan 25th, 2021 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Newbie
Jan 21, 2021
1 posts
Two Questions:
1. In light of the Jordan decision AND COVID-19 pandemic, is it still valid to reasonably expect "10 months or more since you received the ticket to your trial date" as being a reason to stay the trial?
2. If the Crown Prosecutor does not produce field testing for a laser unit that was used to detect my speed and write a ticket, is that sufficient to meet the test for "disclosure material is lacking the requested information"?

Thanks so much!
Sr. Member
Mar 16, 2007
502 posts
38 upvotes
bodycombat78 wrote: Just wanted to post about a red light ticket I got back in Jan 2020 in case anyone wanted to know how the process is like during COVID.

Jan 12, 2020 - Got caught on camera for failing to stop 3 secs on a right turn on a red light by Danforth & Brimley. [I stopped for 2 secs didn't see anyone and turned - saw the flash and knew that a ticket was probably coming in the mail.] Section code 144.18.1 (in case anyone was wondering).
Never heard of must stop for 3 seconds on a red light before turning right, not even called out in the Ontario government Ministry of Transportation web page:

https://www.ontario.ca/document/officia ... directions

Which states:
Right turn on a red light
Unless a sign tells you not to, you may make a right turn facing a red light as long as you first come to a complete stop and wait until the way is clear. Remember to signal your turn and yield to pedestrians and others using the road.
Are you sure you did come to a stop?

I am told by someone who worked at MoT in the group dealing with setting up these cameras that they don’t set the camera to go off unless the speed around the corner is above a certain threshold, ie full stop is not required, and certainly not this “3 second” rule, as well as someone else who got a ticket when he turned right too quickly at a red light because he could see there are no vehicles or pedestrians as he approached the light, the trigger of red light camera is based partially from speed when entering the intersection either going straight through or turning right, in the second case only the first picture captured the car, as he went around the corner fast enough his car was out of the camera frame of the second image.
Newbie
Jun 24, 2013
51 posts
72 upvotes
Toronto, ON
KL wrote: Are you sure you did come to a stop?

I am told by someone who worked at MoT in the group dealing with setting up these cameras that they don’t set the camera to go off unless the speed around the corner is above a certain threshold, ie full stop is not required, and certainly not this “3 second” rule, as well as someone else who got a ticket when he turned right too quickly at a red light because he could see there are no vehicles or pedestrians as he approached the light, the trigger of red light camera is based partially from speed when entering the intersection either going straight through or turning right, in the second case only the first picture captured the car, as he went around the corner fast enough his car was out of the camera frame of the second image.
Maybe I came to a full stop past the line at 30 km/hr? My car was still in the 2nd picture.
Deal Guru
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Mar 23, 2008
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Edmonton
JLiuCA wrote: Two Questions:
1. In light of the Jordan decision AND COVID-19 pandemic, is it still valid to reasonably expect "10 months or more since you received the ticket to your trial date" as being a reason to stay the trial?
2. If the Crown Prosecutor does not produce field testing for a laser unit that was used to detect my speed and write a ticket, is that sufficient to meet the test for "disclosure material is lacking the requested information"?

Thanks so much!
The Jordan decision set the benchmark at 18 months, not 10. And until the courts re-open and start processing, nobody knows what the new "standard" will be.

If you want to argue that you didn't get the appropriate disclosure, you'll need to put forth an argument to persuade the judge. In ON, as long as the officer believes that the device is working correctly (i.e. has done the beginning/end of shift tests), that's all that's required. If you want a different outcome, you'll have to make your case.

C
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Mar 23, 2008
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bodycombat78 wrote: Maybe I came to a full stop past the line at 30 km/hr? My car was still in the 2nd picture.
Yeah, I think you learned the wrong lesson. Stop at the stop line. If you stop at the wrong place, it doesn't matter how long you stop for.

C
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Mar 23, 2008
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BearBullBear wrote: so basically, if at early resolution if they allow some kind of reduction i should accept it because last thing i want is being convicted. However if they refuse, i should hire a paralegal then, and then try to fight which is 50/50 chance (too many variables). I shouldnt have said i was picking up my phone to the police, because he told me he was recording it, but i wanted to tell him the truth only.. do you think i should tell the truth at the early resolution? i really dont want suspension or conviction, i have no problem paying the fine though... thank you
From the time the officer pulled out his ticket book, you never had a "50/50" chance. You had MAYBE a 5% chance. That went down severely when you admitted that you picked up your phone. And keep in mind that if you take it to trial and lose, your fine can go up to $1000, instead of $600.

And you don't get a fine without a conviction. Not the way the system works, even if that's the way you'd prefer it.

C
Member
Oct 29, 2015
445 posts
235 upvotes
Hi all,

I received a speeding ticket on the transition from the 410 to highway 10 in north brampton/caledon.

The offence says "speeding 114 km/h in a 80 km/h zone"
The ticket is for $259.

I would like to get an opinion on whether I should just pay it and move on or if its worth speaking to a Prosecutor.

My renewal date is late March.
:D
Newbie
Jul 15, 2020
69 posts
51 upvotes
CNeufeld wrote: From the time the officer pulled out his ticket book, you never had a "50/50" chance. You had MAYBE a 5% chance. That went down severely when you admitted that you picked up your phone. And keep in mind that if you take it to trial and lose, your fine can go up to $1000, instead of $600.

And you don't get a fine without a conviction. Not the way the system works, even if that's the way you'd prefer it.

C
Thanks, i understand 100%, what would you advise me to do now? I would like to take best possible steps to not get convicted. Thank you
Deal Guru
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Mar 23, 2008
13006 posts
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Edmonton
BearBullBear wrote: Thanks, i understand 100%, what would you advise me to do now? I would like to take best possible steps to not get convicted. Thank you
There is no “best possible steps” to avoid a conviction. You did what the officer accused you of, and admitted it to him. You can choose to fight it in court, and hope for an officer no show or extensive COVID delays, or you can try to work out a deal. If you do the deal, you eliminate the other options. If you take the trial, you can still try to work out a deal, even on the day of your trial. But there’s no “right answer” to avoid a conviction, unless you have a time machine.

C
Member
Oct 29, 2015
445 posts
235 upvotes
DecayHeat wrote: Hi all,

I received a speeding ticket on the transition from the 410 to highway 10 in north brampton/caledon.

The offence says "speeding 114 km/h in a 80 km/h zone"
The ticket is for $259.

I would like to get an opinion on whether I should just pay it and move on or if its worth speaking to a Prosecutor.

My renewal date is late March.
Can anyone shed some light?
:D

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