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Basement beam installation done properly?

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  • Jul 26th, 2022 9:28 am
[OP]
Newbie
Mar 4, 2022
12 posts
26 upvotes

Basement beam installation done properly?

We're in the Greater Toronto Area. We have had a 6" steel beam in our basement replaced with a 10" steel beam in order to have a supporting post removed. The old 6" beam was installed directly beneath the wooden joists. The new 10" beam was supposed to be the same, but after a failed first installation attempt to get the promised headroom our contractor recommended it be installed partially flush-mounted instead, by cutting into the joists.

We have, since the beam replacement, noticed things like creaking floors on the above floor(s) (not just floorboards or surface creaks, but deep groans underfoot), doors that no longer latch or have to be continually re-sanded on top to close, gaps appearing between baseboards and floors upstairs, and more. The floor noises getting worse and the continual re-sanding indicate, to me, an issue that is progressing.

We are concerned that there may be a potential issue with the stability of the beam installation, and whether it is properly supporting the two floors above it.

I have uploaded an album of photos to: https://imgur.com/a/DnmPx6n

In looking at the installation as a layperson, I notice a number of things that I am hoping that someone more knowledgeable than me might comment on.

1. The notches cut in the joists for the beam leave a considerable gap, and the joists do not rest on top of the beam. The only point of contact with the joists seems to be the overlap with the ledger board edge bolted to the side.

2. In some places, the joists don't even firmly rest on the ledger board edge. Either the joist wood is damaged, or there is a gap between the joist and the ledger board, or they've shimmed between the joist and the ledger board with a little wooden shim (that looks like it's getting compacted).

3. The ledger board is cracking in places where it's been bolted to the beam.

4. The beam on the other side of the basement — i.e., the next nearest thing providing any support to the joists on one side — is more than 12' away. On the other side, it's 10' to the foundation wall. I have seen discussion of joists resting on a ledger board: is that limited at all by joist length?

It's passed inspection, we're told — although the original building permit plans would have presumably been for under-joist installation as initially planned. Since it was subsequently reinstalled as partially flush-mounted, I don't know what revisions might have been submitted, if any.

We have asked for whatever plans, etc. are available from the contractor but have so far not been provided any.
66 replies
Deal Addict
Dec 5, 2009
2019 posts
2359 upvotes
Stop whatever you are doing and call a structural engineer asap.
Deal Addict
Jun 26, 2019
2013 posts
1749 upvotes
GTA
What did your structural engineer and City inspector say?

What do your drawings call for?
Deal Addict
Jun 26, 2019
2013 posts
1749 upvotes
GTA
To elaborate a bit more.....
GeneralT wrote: We have asked for whatever plans, etc. are available from the contractor but have so far not been provided any.
This just all around sounds sketch AF. Did you ever see the permit or plans?

I think you need to figure out what is going on, this work should have a required a full drawing set stamped by a PEng. I think first step would be to call your Town or City and ask them for the permit on your house, or if there is even a permit here. If there is a permit, find it, find the stamping PEng, and give them a call asap. If there is no permit, then you're going to have to blame the contractor, throw them under the bus and beg for forgiveness. If thats the case you need to hire a structural eng asap and get them to check it out. You could play it one of two ways with the City/Town, either tell them everything and get them involved asap, which should be fine - everyone is in the wrong here, but at least it shows you are doing the right thing as soon as you were made aware of it. Otherwise, you could just figure out there is no permit and wait to notify the City/Town until you know more.

If you go with the first option, perhaps the Town/City can send someone asap while you get an Engineer out. The reaction of every building department is going to be different. Lets just hope there is a permit and drawing set and this mess can be avoided.
Deal Addict
Nov 17, 2012
4851 posts
4397 upvotes
Toronto
GeneralT wrote: ...failed first installation attempt to get the promised headroom...

...It's passed inspection, we're told...
First off, a 10 inch beam is 4 inches taller than a 6 inch beam, so the change in headroom shouldn't have been a surprise and if you believed a "promise" that by some miracle that the 10" beam would somehow leave as much headroom as you had with the old 6 inch beam, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Call the city and get their help with whatever permits were applied for and inspections completed for your property. There would have been building permits posted to your front door and you should have known when inspections were happening.

You can't be hands-off with stuff like this on your house - your biggest investment. It's your house, not the contractor's, and it's your responsibility to have at least some understanding of what's happening and invest some of your time and energy into following it along at the major milestones like permits and inspections.

If the engineer passed the idea of a ledger board bolted to the beam to support the joists and the overall design, then this would be reflected in new drawings etc. for the builder to follow.

All that being said, when you start messing around with the structure supporting your floor joists, things are going to change for the better or worse. You're down the rabbit hole now, so all you can do is keep digging.

If there are no engineering drawings/permits/inspections, then fire your contractor, recoup whatever money you can and call in a structural engineer of your choosing to see if the current design/installation is up to snuff and what remediation is possible to deal with some of the new issues. With any luck you're into just some shimming of the joists against the ledger board and correction of some doors/trim on the floor above.

Get your 4 foot level and check the beam and floor joists yourself - are they level?
Deal Addict
Apr 18, 2005
3604 posts
1833 upvotes
Mississauga
The new 10" beam was supposed to be the same, but after a failed first installation attempt to get the promised headroom our contractor recommended it be installed partially flush-mounted instead, by cutting into the joists.

1. 6" - 10"... it won't be the same.
2. You cannot go with what a contractor "reccomends" with structure ... that's what stamped engineered plans are for.
[OP]
Newbie
Mar 4, 2022
12 posts
26 upvotes
SubjectivelyObjective wrote: What did your structural engineer and City inspector say?

What do your drawings call for?
Thanks. To answer your questions: It has apparently passed inspection, which we thought was good, until we started experiencing what seem to be ongoing side-effects. I don't know how deeply an inspector goes into the details looking at something like this onsite. We don't know what was submitted in terms of drawings. We've asked for them from both the contractor and the municipality. The contractor is refusing to given them to us right now, and I don't know how long the municipality will take to get them to us. I haven't had an independent structural engineer come in to look at it yet.
Deal Addict
Jun 26, 2019
2013 posts
1749 upvotes
GTA
GeneralT wrote: Thanks. To answer your questions: It has apparently passed inspection, which we thought was good, until we started experiencing what seem to be ongoing side-effects. I don't know how deeply an inspector goes into the details looking at something like this onsite. We don't know what was submitted in terms of drawings. We've asked for them from both the contractor and the municipality. The contractor is refusing to given them to us right now, and I don't know how long the municipality will take to get them to us. I haven't had an independent structural engineer come in to look at it yet.
Municipalities are very backed up and have been for the last two years, so sadly some things may take longer unless you can really push and escalate it.

Where do you live? Some places post permits online.

Did you have a building permit posted on your front door or window?

Also, on your billing was the structural a sub or was it part of the main company? Im guessing you were never given or shown a drawing set for your records?

There's a lot of missing info here that makes it sounds sketchy AF. If there is any outstanding payment I would withhold it.
[OP]
Newbie
Mar 4, 2022
12 posts
26 upvotes
torontotim wrote: First off, a 10 inch beam is 4 inches taller than a 6 inch beam, so the change in headroom shouldn't have been a surprise and if you believed a "promise" that by some miracle that the 10" beam would somehow leave as much headroom as you had with the old 6 inch beam, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
Thanks. To clarify, the 10" was supposed to hang down to the lowest acceptable point: that of the 10" ductwork, and would then form a consistent bulkhead. After installation, we saw that they had put a 2" nailer on top, which they said had to be done if it was installed below the joists. That had never been told to us previously, until the beam was up and right over my head. The loss of 2" in the middle of the ceiling made a significant difference, and they then recommended the new (re)installation. So they took it all down again and did that.
torontotim wrote: Call the city and get their help with whatever permits were applied for and inspections completed for your property. There would have been building permits posted to your front door and you should have known when inspections were happening.
Yeah, no permits posted to the door (as we've since found should have been the case) but we have asked the municipality for permit submissions and inspection reports. No idea how long that will take them.
torontotim wrote: You can't be hands-off with stuff like this on your house - your biggest investment. It's your house, not the contractor's, and it's your responsibility to have at least some understanding of what's happening and invest some of your time and energy into following it along at the major milestones like permits and inspections.
Oh, we're definitely not hands-off. Sometimes we do get a little tired of being yelled at and hung up on by our contractor because we have questions or would like clarification, but we're not hands-off.
torontotim wrote: All that being said, when you start messing around with the structure supporting your floor joists, things are going to change for the better or worse. You're down the rabbit hole now, so all you can do is keep digging.
For sure. And we had been prepared by the contractor for, say, grout cracking on the upstairs tile. I don't mind a door that has to be sanded once or twice. But ongoing and/or progressive problems are more worrisome for us.

Thanks again for your detailed response.
[OP]
Newbie
Mar 4, 2022
12 posts
26 upvotes
TLSRULZ wrote: 1. 6" - 10"... it won't be the same.
2. You cannot go with what a contractor "reccomends" with structure ... that's what stamped engineered plans are for.
Thanks. To clarify, "supposed to be the same" meant it was supposed to also be installed below the joists. The 10" beam was going to hang down as far as the 10" ductwork, making a consistent bulkhead. The unexpected requirement of a 2" wooden nailer on top of the beam brought it down too low, forcing the alternative installation.

We're trying to get ahold of the stamped drawings.
Deal Addict
Apr 26, 2003
2349 posts
1417 upvotes
GTA
From my unprofessional view, it looks like a complete mess. It looks like the joists are being held by the ledger board that's bolted to the beam and it's sagging. The fact that the joists aren't even resting against the beam is a tell tale sign that it was a hack job. Looks like there's about 2-3" of clearance between the joists and the beam, which is probably the flex you're feeling since the joists aren't supported.

Get on your contractors like glue and don't let up until it's sorted out. Did you see when the inspector came and went or was this on your contractor's word?
Deal Addict
Jun 26, 2019
2013 posts
1749 upvotes
GTA
exrcoupe wrote: From my unprofessional view, it looks like a complete mess. It looks like the joists are being held by the ledger board that's bolted to the beam and it's sagging. The fact that the joists aren't even resting against the beam is a tell tale sign that it was a hack job.
Yeah, and especially that shim spot - that looks like a good half inch, so its safe to assume that any gap that isnt secured correctly, is going to settle at least that much over time.

Also, another question that kinda just came up, when your contractor did this, did they build two temporary walls on each side of the beam to remove the old one and install the new one?
[OP]
Newbie
Mar 4, 2022
12 posts
26 upvotes
SubjectivelyObjective wrote: Also, another question that kinda just came up, when your contractor did this, did they build two temporary walls on each side of the beam to remove the old one and install the new one?
Not walls, I don't believe, but they did shore it up with wood and/or temporary posts. I'm not sure of the specifics, though.
Member
Nov 27, 2020
274 posts
543 upvotes
I have a feeling we're about to find out that permits weren't pulled.
Deal Addict
User avatar
Jan 14, 2007
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GTA
Would I be overreacting by saying I wouldn't feel comfortable living in that house until this issue was resolved? The contractors "solution" looks like a disaster.

OP, where are you located?
Deal Fanatic
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Oct 19, 2008
7306 posts
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Whitby
No chance what is in pics has a permit.

Possibly the contractor installed 10" beam if a permit was ever pulled...had that inspected and then started over?

Depending on span/load it might have been possible to simply increase capacity of the original 6" beam enough to remove the post. That is done by welding in stiffener plates on sides of the beam and possibly along the bottom. I saw an I beam turned into a box, steel plate welded onto both sides...a post removed to make room for a pool table....all engineered.
Deal Addict
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Feb 25, 2004
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Longueuil
I can think of only 2 reasons why the contractor would not give you the plans:
1. He didn't follow the plans
2. There are no plans...

Both reasons are pretty bad Disappointed Face

and obviously no permits and inspections...
Try not! Do or do not, there is no try...
Deal Addict
Nov 9, 2008
1852 posts
875 upvotes
Toronto
GeneralT wrote: Thanks. To clarify, "supposed to be the same" meant it was supposed to also be installed below the joists. The 10" beam was going to hang down as far as the 10" ductwork, making a consistent bulkhead. The unexpected requirement of a 2" wooden nailer on top of the beam brought it down too low, forcing the alternative installation.

We're trying to get ahold of the stamped drawings.
This appears to be a very serious issue. All of your main floor load, and likely whatever load you have above that, is sitting on a 1 1/2'' wide ledger board that has a few carriage bolts through a steel beam. Your joists have also been significantly notched and there is no load resting on the top of the beam itself.

Were the joists notched in the "first attempt"? You mention 2'' nailer ontop of the beam - the gap between the joists and the beam where they have been notched looks about 2''. They should at minimum be packed down to transfer load onto the beam, but they look to have had a significant amount of material removed from them that you likely need to sister them.

You also said they took it all down after the first attempt and did it again. Did they properly support the load/joists when they took the beam out? If not, that could be what has caused the sagging you are seeing.

Regardless of if there is a permit pulled or not, I would stop work immediately and bring in someone to inspect this and not allow your contractor to do anything further.
Deal Guru
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Mar 13, 2004
13323 posts
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Ontario
What city do you live in?

I would be calling them again and asking to mark your request as urgent because you believe you are having major structure issues and are not sure if the contractor went by the permit & this could be a safety issue.

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