I came here thinking we were going to talk about BS jobs that people get in the bank where they get paid 100k+ and benefit from relaxed work environments while tellers, financial advisors, etc. get stretched so thin to hit their targets that they can hardly live.

i.e, i met somebody at one of the banks who told me their job was to procure art or something for the office buildings and was so happy to talk how the bank was spending $$$ on a 3-d printer that makes different sculptures every hour or day.

+7

Mar 13th, 2022 9:54 pm

Redsanta: Deal Addict; Dec 16, 2015; 4378 posts; 4276 upvotes; Toronto

Mar 13th, 2022 9:54 pm

MasterBD wrote: ↑ I came here thinking we were going to talk about BS jobs that people get in the bank where they get paid 100k+ and benefit from relaxed work environments while tellers, financial advisors, etc. get stretched so thin to hit their targets that they can hardly live.

i.e, i met somebody at one of the banks who told me their job was to procure art or something for the office buildings and was so happy to talk how the bank was spending $$$ on a 3-d printer that makes different sculptures every hour or day.

no banks want u to work to death, so you've improved 130% last year, pls try 150% this year

and 200% the next year, your target is ever increasing but since your performance measurement is on relative basis (where everyone have to exceed 200%), they make it like average performance

To the moon

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 12:00 am

Thorkell: Deal Addict; Sep 28, 2006; 1342 posts; 1420 upvotes; Toronto

Mar 14th, 2022 12:00 am

Streetdancer wrote: ↑ How do you think how much percentage of jobs in banking are simply BS jobs. No career growth. No decent increase in compensation. Jobs can be easily automated in 5 years. Tons of jobs in compliance simply rely on the government and regulators’ policies. Tons of jobs simply data entering and basic analysis. It seems to that banks have already entering a phase where they will only reward top sales talent and tech talent and keep everyone on a shitty pay scale until they get rid of them.

Does it make sense to even stay in banking for long term? I am in my early thirties and working as a credit analyst for commercial banking. I am thinking of existing banking in few years and go back to school and do something that’s in demand and interesting.

Boomers and GenX benefited a lot from banking careers. For the new Crowd though sales jobs are going to be very stressful given the amount of money banks pouring into technology and they want to put all of your energy into sales now.

Automation and AI has been a buzzword for the last 10 years. Way overblown. My former colleagues at the bank from 5 years ago are still there where they used to be. No robot takeover yet.

All the techy stuff Canadian banks are doing now were techy in other continents 15 years ago. And they still have commercial banking credit analysis functions.

As for the pay, I dont think the banks were ever a high paying place to be in. I came to that realization in my 1st year when they wouldnt even let me have jobs I qualified for because of a salary level formality. Everyone is obsessed with levels there, thats the end all be all. God forbid I work in a bank again.

But yeah, your problem is commercial banking. I was a therapist for a couple of commercial credit analysts. It wasn't pretty how overworked they were, or Im not sure they were playing around to get what they wanted fast.

+2

Mar 14th, 2022 12:06 am

jillaryit: Deal Addict; Jan 29, 2010; 1949 posts; 3100 upvotes; Toronto

Mar 14th, 2022 12:06 am

MasterBD wrote: ↑ I came here thinking we were going to talk about BS jobs that people get in the bank where they get paid 100k+ and benefit from relaxed work environments while tellers, financial advisors, etc. get stretched so thin to hit their targets that they can hardly live.

i.e, i met somebody at one of the banks who told me their job was to procure art or something for the office buildings and was so happy to talk how the bank was spending $$$ on a 3-d printer that makes different sculptures every hour or day.

I've been dealing with some financial advisors in the past couple of months, and it's crazy how unknowledgeable and incompetent they are at their jobs. Their work ethnics are questionable as well. I think you're giving them too much credit. They're paid peanuts and it shows.

I'm sure there are good ones out there, but I haven't encountered any. The good ones probably leave quickly and find better jobs.

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 9:20 am

TodayHello: Deal Fanatic; Dec 8, 2007; 5432 posts; 2031 upvotes

Mar 14th, 2022 9:20 am

OP, leave.

Learn as much as you can in your current role, look to learn more, maintain a good attitude, build some relationships, and look to move on after 2 years. You’re building that exit starting in month 6. Even sooner considering the first 3 months or so on any new job you’re setting the tone for the rest of your term. It’s around the 6 month mark where you’ve mastered the day to day that you can allocate time to proactively networking, learning new things, and working on side projects (like updating the model template or creating a how to, or whatever). This is all being done to get you up and out. Either towards a larger team that works on larger deals (national accounts, corporate banking) and will thus pay more, risk adjudication, relationship management, or management.

As for Banks and BS jobs … yes. A lot of people making widgets and moving paper from one basket to the next. The banks, despite their talk, have very little incentive to change in their comfortable coddled home market where they are oligopolies. The downside, for them, is that they are treated as semi government bodies by regulators and courts. Public sentiment is pretty much always against them. Take a bank to court as an employee - and if you actually have a case - just watch the hammer drop. It’s disproportionately against the Banks. That’s why they are big on mediation or just avoiding going to court with settlements.

But that’s besides the point. Aside from very few select areas of a Bank, and for a very select few people, it is not where you go to get rich. These are not “get rich” jobs. They’re “have a comfortable middle class life” job (lower, middle, or upper middle class depending what you do in the organization). So people in banking need to take the long view - how do I work towards a group or role that I want to be in 5 years from now, 10 years from now? What do I need to know, who do I need to work for, etc. This is all classic career management stuff that is applicable across industries.

For some people, especially those who are young and smart and have a bit of risk tolerance (which you should at that part of your life), learn as much as you can and go follow the money. Learning or earning, and ideally both … and if neither, then leave. Maybe that’s sales. Maybe that’s PE. Maybe that’s a boutique IM shop. Finance in Toronto is a very small world and there is lots of competition. But if you’re smart enough and lucky enough, you may get a shot. And these comments aren’t restricted to finance.

One last point … there is an army of young people behind you who are competing for the same jobs. And not just the Ivey, and Rotman, and Schulich grads … but every BCOMM YorkU and Ryerson and Brock grad with a chin strap and a $150 suit with brown shoes working at a branch looking for a way up and out. The bench is deep and a lot of the work people do isn’t rocket science. Yes, managers will bemoan their inability to find “good” talent - which usually just means people who look, think, talk, and act like them - but the reality is they can staff up quickly in a pinch. Everyone is replaceable. So how do you develop some sticking power … or a foundation from which you can further climb the corporate ladder? Relationships. It all goes back to relationships.

Hydropwnics wrote:"TodayHello is a certified hustler and original gangster."

+4

Mar 14th, 2022 2:27 pm

GTA12345: Deal Addict; Jun 18, 2020; 2986 posts; 3591 upvotes

Mar 14th, 2022 2:27 pm

I've wondered about the breakdown of junior jobs vs "better" ones. But really, the %s either way don't really matter to OPs question. Let's forget all the branch people, and forget all the jobs 70k and under. But above that, the thing about the banks is they are so big. Of course, big tech, O and G, some STEM jobs and CPG managers i guess can get someone with a 4 yr degree into 6 figures, but are the absolute number of jobs in these areas even comparable to 1 Big 5 bank? Consulting sure, but good luck having a life outside work.

Sales obviously can make $, but if we're talking middle manager making 130k all in, what industry gives you the most chance to get there with a basic degree?

Now OP you might not think that's enough money, which is fair. If someone thinks their walking into a bank and seeing a straight line path to 250k, well ya that's naive, it gets thin up there and those guys aren't avg schmos. But is there a place that 250k is realistically possible in large numbers?

I know people making that at smaller companies (under 100 employees), but those odds are just long for non sales.

So while I can see there being a ton of BS jobs at banks with no upside, who really cares about those unless you're in one? When it comes to a path to break 100k ASAP with a 4 yr degree, I just don't know one career/industry where the number of paths is greater, where the number of job ads out there on their websites approaches the banks.

I'd gladly take suggestions though, I've got in laws in Uni who will be looking for advice soon.

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 2:35 pm

GTA12345: Deal Addict; Jun 18, 2020; 2986 posts; 3591 upvotes

Mar 14th, 2022 2:35 pm

Thorkell wrote: ↑ Automation and AI has been a buzzword for the last 10 years. Way overblown. My former colleagues at the bank from 5 years ago are still there where they used to be. No robot takeover yet.

All the techy stuff Canadian banks are doing now were techy in other continents 15 years ago. And they still have commercial banking credit analysis functions.

As for the pay, I dont think the banks were ever a high paying place to be in. I came to that realization in my 1st year when they wouldnt even let me have jobs I qualified for because of a salary level formality. Everyone is obsessed with levels there, thats the end all be all. God forbid I work in a bank again.

But yeah, your problem is commercial banking. I was a therapist for a couple of commercial credit analysts. It wasn't pretty how overworked they were, or Im not sure they were playing around to get what they wanted fast.

Sorry if I'm wrong, but IIRC weren't you trying to skip more than one level? One might disagree with the idea of levels, but once you're in an org with them, you can't expect to jump.

I might be mistaking you for another poster. But I just wanted any users here to be aware of the way it works. Most ops roles, ya they will make you go thru levels, and it can be slow cause they are big bureaucracies essentially. Not for everyone.

But to say a bank won't let you go for jobs you are qualified for is misleading. It's not entirely untrue, there is an expectation you commit to roles for a time so one might be held back temporarily, but that's not uncommon generally in big orgs.

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 4:27 pm

MasterBD: Member; Sep 16, 2017; 389 posts; 298 upvotes

Mar 14th, 2022 4:27 pm

jillaryit wrote: ↑ I've been dealing with some financial advisors in the past couple of months, and it's crazy how unknowledgeable and incompetent they are at their jobs. Their work ethnics are questionable as well. I think you're giving them too much credit. They're paid peanuts and it shows.

I'm sure there are good ones out there, but I haven't encountered any. The good ones probably leave quickly and find better jobs.

oh definitely. i have had this same experience. the reason is the turnover.

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 5:24 pm

max88: Deal Addict; Dec 27, 2006; 1689 posts; 291 upvotes; Toronto

Mar 14th, 2022 5:24 pm

People (myself included) don't get a job to BS, they do so to get paid so to put food on the table and to put a roof over the head. If BS gets them a job (and paid), then they BS. Simple as that.

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 5:56 pm

teoconca: Deal Guru; Oct 16, 2008; 10282 posts; 4550 upvotes; Vaughan

Mar 14th, 2022 5:56 pm

Last edited by teoconca on Mar 14th, 2022 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

...

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 6:51 pm

Redsanta: Deal Addict; Dec 16, 2015; 4378 posts; 4276 upvotes; Toronto

Mar 14th, 2022 6:51 pm

jillaryit wrote: ↑ I've been dealing with some financial advisors in the past couple of months, and it's crazy how unknowledgeable and incompetent they are at their jobs. Their work ethnics are questionable as well. I think you're giving them too much credit. They're paid peanuts and it shows.

I'm sure there are good ones out there, but I haven't encountered any. The good ones probably leave quickly and find better jobs.

I think its because ur peanuts to them so they dont care... ie. senior financial advisors service $50 million+ clienteles

To the moon

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 6:53 pm

Redsanta: Deal Addict; Dec 16, 2015; 4378 posts; 4276 upvotes; Toronto

Mar 14th, 2022 6:53 pm

GTA12345 wrote: ↑ Sorry if I'm wrong, but IIRC weren't you trying to skip more than one level? One might disagree with the idea of levels, but once you're in an org with them, you can't expect to jump.

I might be mistaking you for another poster. But I just wanted any users here to be aware of the way it works. Most ops roles, ya they will make you go thru levels, and it can be slow cause they are big bureaucracies essentially. Not for everyone.

But to say a bank won't let you go for jobs you are qualified for is misleading. It's not entirely untrue, there is an expectation you commit to roles for a time so one might be held back temporarily, but that's not uncommon generally in big orgs.

Yes they want you to go through one level at a time like a monkey climbing a ladder one step at a time...they dont care u got a PhD in Machine Learning (they downplay any advanced degrees saying its not needed here), the Seneca undergraduate "senior manager/director" whos been there for 10 years+ won't let you..

To the moon

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 7:13 pm

GTA12345: Deal Addict; Jun 18, 2020; 2986 posts; 3591 upvotes

Mar 14th, 2022 7:13 pm

Redsanta wrote: ↑ Yes they want you to go through one level at a time like a monkey climbing a ladder one step at a time...they dont care u got a PhD in Machine Learning (they downplay any advanced degrees saying its not needed here), the Seneca undergraduate "senior manager/director" whos been there for 10 years+ won't let you..

I mean, in fairness, many would say after ten yrs the degree doesn't matter. I'm on record here defending education, I think it matters, just a counter point.

Regardless, no sen manager is holding back a rock star. It's sen manager. They are more likely to hold back people making 60k but even that's a stretch. Even director, same...but I see your point, they do like to see time in role and I've questioned that for sure.

My knowledge of banks is more to do with operations. So there's just less chance a rock star comes thru. But, if you're super educated and stuck working in a bank role beneath you, then you came in too low, or you don't have the experience...or both.

Banks aren't the place to just get a foot in the door and then expect to wow them in 3 months for a promo. At least not in operations, I can't speak to IB or rev generating areas where you might prove yourself with $$$ coming in.

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 7:30 pm

epiphano: Sr. Member; Jun 6, 2009; 967 posts; 561 upvotes

Mar 14th, 2022 7:30 pm

Thorkell wrote: ↑ Automation and AI has been a buzzword for the last 10 years. Way overblown. My former colleagues at the bank from 5 years ago are still there where they used to be. No robot takeover yet.

All the techy stuff Canadian banks are doing now were techy in other continents 15 years ago. And they still have commercial banking credit analysis functions.

As for the pay, I dont think the banks were ever a high paying place to be in. I came to that realization in my 1st year when they wouldnt even let me have jobs I qualified for because of a salary level formality. Everyone is obsessed with levels there, thats the end all be all. God forbid I work in a bank again.

But yeah, your problem is commercial banking. I was a therapist for a couple of commercial credit analysts. It wasn't pretty how overworked they were, or Im not sure they were playing around to get what they wanted fast.

I used to work in cheque/remittance processing for a bank when I was a student (10-ish years ago), and I'm pretty sure those jobs are gone now. Even then, it was clear those jobs were going to disappear sooner or later. Those who process ABM envelopes are next on the chopping block, if that's not already underway.

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 8:43 pm

Thorkell: Deal Addict; Sep 28, 2006; 1342 posts; 1420 upvotes; Toronto

Mar 14th, 2022 8:43 pm

GTA12345 wrote: ↑ Sorry if I'm wrong, but IIRC weren't you trying to skip more than one level? One might disagree with the idea of levels, but once you're in an org with them, you can't expect to jump.

I might be mistaking you for another poster. But I just wanted any users here to be aware of the way it works. Most ops roles, ya they will make you go thru levels, and it can be slow cause they are big bureaucracies essentially. Not for everyone.

But to say a bank won't let you go for jobs you are qualified for is misleading. It's not entirely untrue, there is an expectation you commit to roles for a time so one might be held back temporarily, but that's not uncommon generally in big orgs.

It might've been me.

I think that is exactly the case. I left a while back, been years. If I stayed I know for a fact I would've been stuck in the same position. Problem is they set a lot of barriers, and additional gender specific quotas they have for senior and managerial role stagnates your progress further. Some of my colleagues have made little to no progress.

I kinda get comitting for a specific time frame, but some folks paying their dues for 3-4+ years, getting educated, certified or whatever, and still can't qualify for even being CONSIDERED for the role because they are 3 levels lower is a joke.

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 9:11 pm

Redsanta: Deal Addict; Dec 16, 2015; 4378 posts; 4276 upvotes; Toronto

Mar 14th, 2022 9:11 pm

Thorkell wrote: ↑ It might've been me.

I think that is exactly the case. I left a while back, been years. If I stayed I know for a fact I would've been stuck in the same position. Problem is they set a lot of barriers, and additional gender specific quotas they have for senior and managerial role stagnates your progress further. Some of my colleagues have made little to no progress.

I kinda get comitting for a specific time frame, but some folks paying their dues for 3-4+ years, getting educated, certified or whatever, and still can't qualify for even being CONSIDERED for the role because they are 3 levels lower is a joke.

This... even though the person 3 levels above you are not certified, doesn't have master, come from college like george brown, and much less knowledgeable are somehow fit for the 4 levels above you...

The iron rule: never enter banking at lower levels...negotiate or look at ways around to get to higher levels (ie. director) before entering, otherwise you WILL get stuck, as those above you being less educated think less of you just because you are lower levels despite having 1000x better education and skills

To the moon

+1

Mar 14th, 2022 9:32 pm

GTA12345: Deal Addict; Jun 18, 2020; 2986 posts; 3591 upvotes

Mar 14th, 2022 9:32 pm

Thorkell wrote: ↑ It might've been me.

I think that is exactly the case. I left a while back, been years. If I stayed I know for a fact I would've been stuck in the same position. Problem is they set a lot of barriers, and additional gender specific quotas they have for senior and managerial role stagnates your progress further. Some of my colleagues have made little to no progress.

I kinda get comitting for a specific time frame, but some folks paying their dues for 3-4+ years, getting educated, certified or whatever, and still can't qualify for even being CONSIDERED for the role because they are 3 levels lower is a joke.

Not to take this thread off base, but 3 levels...I mean, I don't care the certs or degree you have, if you go in at a manager level and expect to move straight to Senior director, or go in as Director and expect a jump to SVP...you're just not being realistic. Not at banks, and not at most orgs I'd say, will that happen. If you're capable of being an SVP, don't go in a Director.

I've known some to stagnate. But generally if you're good, you can make moves within banks - but yes, one level at a time. It might mean a jump to another bank, but within the context of this thread, that should be acceptable. Point is jobs that pay what I think is good money (>150k) are there.

How many? More than other orgs/industries? I'd love to know, if anyone has the stats...

Here's a tidbit that might seem irrelevant to some, I think it's at least semi useful.

Banks release their Proxy circulars around this time each year. All the Big 5 are out now. In there they disclose details of the salary for a few Named Executive Officers. It's usually the CEO, head of Capital Markets, etc. I always take a look just for kicks. Not gonna help anyone's career here.

But this year for the first time I noticed they also release info (less detailed) about other high earners. What they call Market Risk Takers, I've no idea what the def'n is but one bank it seemed to indicate it included SVPs.

Anyway, as an example, RBC had 218 of these people who had a TC of 526m. An avg of $2.4m.

Now, I don't know the breakdown, obviously EVPs, Group Heads and such will be higher than the bottom of this group, but that is a killer average. Any other orgs that can say that for the same % of their total workforce?

Is it realistic to join a bank and expect to make this cut? No, it's a teeny % of total staff. But if we expanded the number to 500 or 750 high earners, the $ number would drop but we're starting at well over $2m. I'd guess the avg for the top even 1000 would be pretty impressive.

So are most bank jobs BS? A lot? I don't know. But the flip side is a lot of them pay a ton. How many people at the top of other orgs do we really think are averaging $2.4m?

All orgs have their lower tier careers. It's the upper tier that interest me more.

+1

Mar 15th, 2022 8:57 am

ProductGuy: Deal Addict; Jan 1, 2017; 1818 posts; 1862 upvotes

Mar 15th, 2022 8:57 am

Thorkell wrote: ↑ It might've been me.

I think that is exactly the case. I left a while back, been years. If I stayed I know for a fact I would've been stuck in the same position. Problem is they set a lot of barriers, and additional gender specific quotas they have for senior and managerial role stagnates your progress further. Some of my colleagues have made little to no progress.

I kinda get comitting for a specific time frame, but some folks paying their dues for 3-4+ years, getting educated, certified or whatever, and still can't qualify for even being CONSIDERED for the role because they are 3 levels lower is a joke.

This will happen in any Org. Nobody is going to let you jump 3 levels at a time unless you are switching orgs and you can sell yourself. Work experience trumps education. Someone 3 levels up has way more experience which is more valuable than education in most cases.

+2

Mar 15th, 2022 9:25 am

MyNameWasTaken: Deal Fanatic; Aug 31, 2017; 5135 posts; 3000 upvotes

Mar 15th, 2022 9:25 am

A lot of jobs are BS, both inside and outside banks. Insurance too is full of BS jobs and well-paying too with minimal stress.

Even talking about levels.
Who put the system in place?
Does the system still work?
What are the pros and cons of the system?
Who benefits from the current system?

Once you start asking questions, and challenge the thought process, you start to notice a lot of mediocrity.

The reality is, what will happen when these jobs go away? Not everyone can be a coder. The previous generations have made their wealth (not all), and we’ll have to compete for diminishing opportunities with more workload. UBI is needed.

+1

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