Calgary - Edmonton travel future, High Speed Rail vs Hyperloop

US$550M secured to help finance ultra-high-speed hyperloop between Edmonton and Calgary
https://globalnews.ca/news/8718640/albe ... y-funding/


High-speed hyperloop, energy-efficient homes could help Edmontonians save money as gas prices remain high
https://edmonton.citynews.ca/2022/03/29 ... -edmonton/

High-speed rail is very expensive to construct and usually requires government subsidies to operate (even in places like France, where the network is extensive). Europe is far more advanced than North America in this regard, but even there the network is patchy (no high-speed connection between the German and Polish networks, or Spain and Portugal, or Germany and Czechia). HSR requires significant investment and long-term commitment from successive governments.

There are already multiple options between Edmonton and Calgary--air, bus, private car, ride-sharing--and the basic economics of a high-speed rail project are questionable. Passenger numbers and fare options mean that the project would be unlikely to stand on its own two feet on a commercial basis. However, the project COULD be justified as part of a larger move towards greener transport--if the focus is more on shifting travel away from more-polluting options in favour of sustainability, regardless of potential profitability. In other words, a proposal that is unlikely to be commercially viable on its own merits could nevertheless be worthy of pursuit in terms of meeting climate goals.

HSR is proven technology and is definitely doable in the corridor. It would likely be a better option than a hyperloop. There have been proposals in the past to do an Edmonton-Calgary HSR line as part of a larger scheme to connect the Edmonton-Calgary-Vancouver triangle.

Government and public would have to be very clear on what exactly they want this project to accomplish, as it could very quickly become a mishmash. Is meeting climate goals sufficiently worthy that the public is willing to fund the system at a loss? (It is unlikely that fares could be set high enough to fully recoup construction and operating costs, as this would simply depress ridership.) Is connecting Edmonton and Calgary sufficient, or should there be stops along the way? (The temptation would be for communities and politicians in places like Red Deer to insist that stops be added in their cities, but this of course would lead to increased costs and travel times.) Is there a longer-term goal of connecting a QE2 line to a larger North American HSR network? Would this project help or rather hinder the goals of both Edmonton and Calgary to maintain and develop longer-haul service from their airports?

Dhanushan wrote: ↑ US$550M secured to help finance ultra-high-speed hyperloop between Edmonton and Calgary
https://globalnews.ca/news/8718640/albe ... y-funding/

Video posted to YouTube

TravellingChris wrote: ↑ There are already multiple options between Edmonton and Calgary--air, bus, private car, ride-sharing--

all of these options are 3+ hours though.

KingMoobot wrote: ↑ all of these options are 3+ hours though.

Absolutely. But are potential passengers willing to pay the much-higher cost of a high speed rail ticket in order to save two hours over a car or bus? Is the taxpayer willing to fund the immense capital cost of construction and the ongoing operating costs of high speed rail, when competing infrastructure--airports, highway--is already in place?

To use an extreme example, there have been multiple proposals over the years--even recently--to build a bridge or tunnel between Ireland and Scotland. Aside from the immense cost and specific geotechnical challenges involved, the main argument against such a project is that the UK would be crazy to spend billions of pounds on a tunnel when someone can simply get on a plane in London (using existing infrastructure) and be in Belfast in just over an hour, for less than 50 pounds.

Nice proposal, never happening

Amtrak loses money. Acela Express connecting boston nyc and Washington makes some money after years of problems.

Are we sure calgary to Edmonton is as important as nyc to Washington. Not sure….

In eastern Canada we have the Via Rail Windsor to Quebec City Corridor (with offshoots to both Niagara & Ottawa).
It works extremely well.
To the point where a great many people use it to commute between the major cities for business or leisure.
Esp as most of the major cities in this region lie between 2 and 5 hours apart

Examples …
Quebec City to Montreal = 3.0
Montreal to Ottawa = 2.0
Ottawa to Toronto = 4.5
Toronto to Windsor = 4.75
Toronto to Montreal = 5.25

Service is great.
Cheaper than flying … and for many much faster than other options when you consider airports are on the outskirts of cities, and you have to also get early to the airport to check in and get thru security etc. So less bother too. Hence its extremely popular with business travellers as there is downtown to downtown service … and also with leisure travellers as the trains also usually have at least one stop in the burbs too (Ste-Foy - St Lambert - Dorval - Fallowfield - Guildwood - Aldershot etc)

So cheaper, and the same time … or faster
Plus no traffic headaches.
Work, drink, eat. Sit back & relax.
Train runs pretty much no matter the weather.

Never understood WHY no one hasn’t built a train line … public or private between these 2 popular cities before this.

PointsHubby wrote: ↑
Never understood WHY no one hasn’t built a train line … public or private between these 2 popular cities before this.

As I understand it--I recall an Alberta Department of Transportation official saying something to this effect, years ago--the issue is that every single road that currently crosses the north-south CP rail line (which is the corridor that would be used) would have to be grade-separated. Every single rural, secondary and primary road, which would add a huge amount to the cost. The reason is that when VIA used to run a standard-speed service between Edmonton and Calgary (the Dayliner) which ended in 1989, it was constantly hitting vehicles at grade crossings.

Which ties back into my original point: the project is certainly doable and definitely exciting, but taxpayers would have to accept from the outset that fares would never earn enough to cover the massive construction costs and ongoing operating costs--this would be a long-term commitment from the public purse to set it up and keep it going.

We travel Calgary-Edmonton a couple of times a year for personal/family reasons, always by car as a family (of usually 4). We always need a car for what we are doing while there. A few weeks ago, cost was $150 gas in our gas guzzling truck (cheaper in my little car)
My friend does it by bus because it's just her and she doesn't like driving herself in the winter. It's $120 round trip and she has access to a vehicle there.

I have flown to Edmonton a few times for work. $250-400 (maybe more now) With having to get to the airport back then an hour earlier (I think it's more now), and then all the processes it took over 2 hours if I have checked luggage and a car rental. It was just over an hour faster than when I drive fast.

From convenience stand point, the high speed train or the hyperloop sounds like a great idea. $90 a person is fair but not realistic or sustainable. How much demand is there really to go to Edmonton - Calgary on a daily or even weekly basis? Where will this money come from? It's estimated at $20 BILLION, they have funding for $550 MIL, so only have about 3%. There are many technical and logistic issues to get it built. The costs for building and operating far outweigh any benefit. I can't see this happening.

Macx2mommy wrote: ↑ We travel Calgary-Edmonton a couple of times a year for personal/family reasons, always by car as a family (of usually 4).

{snip}

From convenience stand point, the high speed train or the hyperloop sounds like a great idea. $90 a person is fair but not realistic or sustainable. How much demand is there really to go to Edmonton - Calgary on a daily or even weekly basis?

I wonder whether this is a bit of “If you build it, they will come.”?

I remember travelling from Vancouver to Whistler in the 1970s. The drive took several hours. There wasn’t much demand for such trips. The provincial government invested a lot of money into the highway. When they built it, people came.

PointsHubby wrote: ↑ In eastern Canada we have the Via Rail Windsor to Quebec City Corridor (with offshoots to both Niagara & Ottawa).
It works extremely well.
To the point where a great many people use it to commute between the major cities for business or leisure.
Esp as most of the major cities in this region lie between 2 and 5 hours apart

Examples …
Quebec City to Montreal = 3.0
Montreal to Ottawa = 2.0
Ottawa to Toronto = 4.5
Toronto to Windsor = 4.75
Toronto to Montreal = 5.25

Service is great.
Cheaper than flying … and for many much faster than other options when you consider airports are on the outskirts of cities, and you have to also get early to the airport to check in and get thru security etc. So less bother too. Hence its extremely popular with business travellers as there is downtown to downtown service … and also with leisure travellers as the trains also usually have at least one stop in the burbs too (Ste-Foy - St Lambert - Dorval - Fallowfield - Guildwood - Aldershot etc)

So cheaper, and the same time … or faster
Plus no traffic headaches.
Work, drink, eat. Sit back & relax.
Train runs pretty much no matter the weather.

Never understood WHY no one hasn’t built a train line … public or private between these 2 popular cities before this.

You can easily do a day trip to/from Toronto Montreal as a business traveller by air. With the added benefit of the island airport. Island to Montreal flights on air Canada alcohol is free. As porter gives free alcohol. There also is “rapid air” on toronto to Montreal Ottawa so you can hop an early flight if there is room. Adds to flexibility. Also flight passes for frequent travelers including unlimited travel can make sense by offsetting hotel costs. I hate 1 night trips. Check in to check out at hotels. Many want to be home for kids can’t do that with train.

I love trains and was not traveling Toronto to Montreal often. I always flew and my peers did the same way.

Also not every business traveller is downtown to downtown. Lots of companies and business to be done near yyz and the suburbs to Montreal.

The train is not reliable whatever the fastest train is rarely meets its time and it does get impacted by weather (sadly suicides happen too which stops the rail lines). Planes of course in harsh weather are prone to delays as well (but you can hop earlier flights which slightly offsets that.

Certainly Toronto to Montreal deserves a high speed corridor. Also not going to happen. Too much Nimbyism debates about this and that and then whoever builds or delivers it will be horrible delayed.

Leisure travel sure train it’s nice but it isn’t cheap and toronto to Montreal I dont think they make much money or likely lose.

Quebec City /Montreal /Ottawa is a reasonable choice for via rail.

Again I love trains but this part of the world is cursed on the fun stuff.

There's zero chance high speed rail gets constructed. There's not enough density on either cities to support this. The only case you can make for high speed rail in Canada is in the southeast/west Ontario, Quebec, Michigan corridor. Trains linking Detroit, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City.

Extrahard wrote: ↑ There's zero chance high speed rail gets constructed. There's not enough density on either cities to support this. The only case you can make for high speed rail in Canada is in the southeast/west Ontario, Quebec, Michigan corridor. Trains linking Detroit, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City.

Canada doesn’t end at the Ontario-Manitoba border.

Rapid rail for Cascadia? B.C., Washington and Oregon sign pact on high-speed transportation

Washington, Oregon and British Columbia agreed to work together to bring bullet trains or other forms of ultra-high-speed ground transportation to connect the major population centers of the Cascadia region. Under a memorandum of understanding (MOU) announced at the Cascadia Innovation Corridor conference in Vancouver, B.C., on Tuesday afternoon, the U.S. states and Canadian province will form a joint policy committee to coordinate their planning and seek funding for the long-discussed initiative.

Ultimately, the goal is to get people from Portland to Vancouver, B.C., in as little as two hours.

Washington State approves $150 million to plan Vancouver-Seattle high-speed rail

The legislature of Washington State has approved a spending measure of US$150 million (CA$192 million) to proceed with advanced planning work on the proposed Cascadia high-speed rail passenger service linking Vancouver, Seattle, and Portland.

Update

Alta. hyperloop project awaiting government meeting, committing to stop in Red Deer
https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/alta-hyperl ... -1.6217544

Dhanushan wrote: ↑ Update

Alta. hyperloop project awaiting government meeting, committing to stop in Red Deer
https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/alta-hyperl ... -1.6217544

This just shows how unrealistic the entire project is from the outset. One BILLION dollars--not the total cost, but the price tag simply to add a single stop. In a city of only 101,000 people.

When Red Deer gets an NHL team and an IKEA, we can talk about spending the extra cash to add a hyperloop station.

Extrahard wrote: ↑There's zero chance high speed rail gets constructed. There's not enough density on either cities to support this. The only case you can make for high speed rail in Canada is in the southeast/west Ontario, Quebec, Michigan corridor. Trains linking Detroit, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City.

MexiCanuck wrote: ↑ Canada doesn’t end at the Ontario-Manitoba border.

Rapid rail for Cascadia? B.C., Washington and Oregon sign pact on high-speed transportation

Washington State approves $150 million to plan Vancouver-Seattle high-speed rail

This very recent video discusses the future plan and outlook for high speed rail in the Pacific Northwest region.

High Speed Rail In The Pacific Northwest: Connecting Portland, Seattle and Vancouver!
High speed rail makes the most sense, when it's able to connect major population centers in a more convenient way than either personal vehicles or airplanes. With this in mind, the Pacific Northwest makes for almost a perfect scenario for high speed rail. In this video, we break down passenger rail efforts, current rail infrastructure, and future plans and the outlook for high speed rail for the region.

Dhanushan wrote: ↑ This very recent video discusses the future plan and outlook for high speed rail in the Pacific Northwest region.

High Speed Rail In The Pacific Northwest: Connecting Portland, Seattle and Vancouver!
High speed rail makes the most sense, when it's able to connect major population centers in a more convenient way than either personal vehicles or airplanes. With this in mind, the Pacific Northwest makes for almost a perfect scenario for high speed rail. In this video, we break down passenger rail efforts, current rail infrastructure, and future plans and the outlook for high speed rail for the region.

Having recently flew yvr-sea it really isn’t faster than driving but the amount tarmac time in SEA which is a huge airport would make a HSR rail line viable time wise.

However I don’t think this will ever really happen. We’re lucky to even have rail service on the line. Look at all the problems with Acela Express on the east coast it finally sort of makes money while the rest of Amtrak bleeds.

The question is… who would pay a substantial (and if you want some high speed train with frequency omg it’s going to be pricey ) amount more money to get from Seattle to Vancouver? Both airports are also connected by mass transit (though SEA is a ways out from downtown). Harbour air has seaplane service right into the heart of Seattle from Vancouver downtown for those who value time.

I say do the opposite. Put a comfortable sleeping car train in to do the route overnight slowly. Go back to the old days of rail with a good meal with a solid cocktail in the dining car. Good service, generous luggage and a nice bed to sleep in. Mix in 6 bed couchettes a premium 4 person and a premium 2 bed or private.

That way people from either city can go to and from. Both cities don’t really require cars to enjoy and you can get into Seattle or Vancouver bright and early. Enjoy the weekend and spend transit time while sleeping. Cross market with hotels in either city and put together weekend packages. I’d certainly do one of those. Use tourism board dollars to market Vancouver by rail in Seattle (which they do advertise Vancouver in Seattle) do the same in Vancouver. Hopefully both cities can aim to fill trains going both directions with hotel booking commission. Advertise conveying bikes. Go green etc

The train can put along slowly.

That would be an idea. However I think we should be grateful we have this line and it’s even getting new trains.

This is way too forward thinking for this side of the world.

70% the passengers on my air Canada sea-yvr were connecting from long haul. How do I know? Lol. Trying to bring standard carry on into an old q400.