Travel

Canadian airlines scamming consumers again as hoped-for bounceback in demand fizzles

  • Last Updated:
  • Sep 20th, 2020 6:58 pm
[OP]
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Pete_Coach wrote: Bottom line is that you do not know what flights have been cancelled. You are making broad based assumptions and claims. Lots of talk but no evidence...
If you have evidence to the contrary, e.g. that the cancelled flights were empty, then post it here. Otherwise you're also making assumptions and speculating. Pot. Kettle. Black.
You also do not know if anyone is getting or not getting refunds on the recently announced flights.
As always you shoot from the hip without bothering to read the linked article or even just the snippet I quoted. That's all the evidence a reasonable person with basic English comprehension skills needs ;)
As for you taking other airlines for international flights, go for it. Take a code shared flight and still sit on Air Canada aircraft...that'll show them LOL
Read what I actually wrote rather than making up nonsense. For example anyone who wants to fly to say Frankfurt would be better off to book an AC flight on LH's site as a code-share rather than directly with AC. If the flight gets cancelled, they're eligible for a refund. If they booked the same flight on AC's site all they'd get is a voucher. Same plane. Same seat. Same price. Same crew. Same food. Very different result.
Oh and, if you need to fly within Canad, find that code shared flights
Oh and did you read (and comprehend!) the adjective "overseas" in my post? (I used that adjective twice just in case you might miss it the first time. Evidently that still wasn't enough ;) )
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Happened to me so it's going on for sure. There better not be any bailouts.
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bylo wrote: If you have evidence to the contrary, e.g. that the cancelled flights were empty, then post it here. Otherwise you're also making assumptions and speculating. Pot. Kettle. Black.
Never claimed to have any evidence at all, that is why I asked you if you knew something others did not. I made no exclamations about the schedules or routes. You are the one that are having a problem with unannounced plans..
bylo wrote: As always you shoot from the hip without bothering to read the linked article or even just the snippet I quoted. That's all the evidence a reasonable person with basic English comprehension skills needs ;)
Not shooting from anywhere. I rad the article and got no more out of it than I have expressed. I will wait till announcements are made before whining....unlike you. What evidence? What routes, what flights are cancelled? Again, if you know, please share.[/quote]

Read what I actually wrote rather than making up nonsense. For example anyone who wants to fly to say Frankfurt would be better off to book an AC flight on LH's site as a code-share rather than directly with AC. If the flight gets cancelled, they're eligible for a refund. If they booked the same flight on AC's site all they'd get is a voucher. Same plane. Same seat. Same price. Same crew. Same food. Very different result.
bylo wrote: I did read what you wrote but thought it was all rhetorical since neither you nor I know what route and flights are cancelled hence, worth of only what I responded.
Oh and did you read (and comprehend!) the adjective "overseas" in my post? (I used that adjective twice just in case you might miss it the first time. Evidently that still wasn't enough ;) )
bylo wrote: Again, I felt it was totally rhetorical statement since you do not know (or are not sharing what you think you know) so, you get a rhetorical response to what you wrote.
Bottom line, once Air Canada and Westjet actually list what flights and routes are affected, all of your disdain and bitterness is wasted. Personally, and this is just supposition as I have no insight (as you seemingly have) I suspect the majority of the cancelled flights and routes are within Canada with a few international. I am neither right or wrong and have no crystal ball but that seems to be a problem for you as you seem to be making judgement on ......what? .....your imagination?
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[OP]
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Sigh. Not only struggling with basic reading comprehension but also post formatting skills. I didn't say most of which you claim I said so I'm not going to respond to this mish-mash of verbiage.

BTW if you're such a staunch defender of AC and WS, why not start a separate "fan thread" on their behalf?
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tripwire wrote: Many of us keep telling others to stop giving these interest-free loans to Air Canada and others. People don't listen, and are not smart enough to make the right decisions for themselves.
It's only the canadian airline companies that are scamming people, because they can and have the govt support.

I flew KLM this summer and my flight went just fine, even though transatlantic it was only 33% full. That's because Euro and US airlines know they can't scam people by taking reservations and then just cancelling flights with no recourse.

Planning to fly again KLM this Christmas/New Years.
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dealguy2 wrote: Happened to me so it's going on for sure. There better not be any bailouts.
No bail-out yet, but drag out this COVID thing a bit more and it will be inevitable.

Their friends at the CTA and government will definitely have some cushy executive/consultant/board positions waiting for them once they leave office.
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I suspect there are a lot of people who tried to chargeback when they decided to cancel their own flight reservation preemptively rather than AC cancelling the flight first.

As Pete_Coach can attest to, I'm definitely not a fan of credit, but those who preemptively cancel definitely are not in a position to justify or receive a chargeback.
secretalcoholic wrote: That worked during the beginning of the pandemic but I've been hearing more and more stories about banks refusing to do the chargeback or open a case because the passenger got a voucher. Neutral Face
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Me262A1 wrote: It's only the canadian airline companies that are scamming people, because they can and have the govt support.

I flew KLM this summer and my flight went just fine, even though transatlantic it was only 33% full. That's because Euro and US airlines know they can't scam people by taking reservations and then just cancelling flights with no recourse.

Planning to fly again KLM this Christmas/New Years.
Well they received billions in bailout, dont expect canadian airlines to refund if they get no support.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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bylo wrote: Sigh. Not only struggling with basic reading comprehension but also post formatting skills. I didn't say most of which you claim I said so I'm not going to respond to this mish-mash of verbiage.

BTW if you're such a staunch defender of AC and WS, why not start a separate "fan thread" on their behalf?
Chuckle.
No retorts or issues with what I have said except for your claim of issues I have comprehension problem and formatting? That is all you have?

I believe that if you read the entire article, there are exact reasons for A/C and WS and Transat doing what they are doing (anyone booking Transat is clearly not paying attention to the status of Transat...they may not even be around next Spring...that is yet to be seen). So, I seem to be correct as you cannot disprove any of it.

I am not a "staunch defender of AC and WS", just trying to bring realism into the conversation. I deal with fact (such as "airlines are cancelling the half-booked flights and consolidating passengers on remaining ones to cut costs.") and logic and do not get overwhelmed by emotion as some (?) do. No need for a "fan thread" by me because more and more people are realizing what is going on is a necessary business decision. If A/C and Westjet would be getting the millions and millions in bail out money that other world airlines were getting from their governments, I would also be jumping on their backs but they are not.

So, don't let facts get in the way of your emotions and imagination.
Me262A1 wrote: It's only the canadian airline companies that are scamming people, because they can and have the govt support.

I flew KLM this summer and my flight went just fine, even though transatlantic it was only 33% full. That's because Euro and US airlines know they can't scam people by taking reservations and then just cancelling flights with no recourse.

Planning to fly again KLM this Christmas/New Years.
Actually, being 1/3 to 1/2 full has somewhat been the norm, to satisfy safety and social distancing requirements. This is why some routes and schedules have been altered.
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Pete_Coach wrote: Chuckle.
No retorts or issues with what I have said except for your claim of issues I have comprehension problem and formatting? That is all you have?

I believe that if you read the entire article, there are exact reasons for A/C and WS and Transat doing what they are doing (anyone booking Transat is clearly not paying attention to the status of Transat...they may not even be around next Spring...that is yet to be seen). So, I seem to be correct as you cannot disprove any of it.

I am not a "staunch defender of AC and WS", just trying to bring realism into the conversation. I deal with fact (such as "airlines are cancelling the half-booked flights and consolidating passengers on remaining ones to cut costs.") and logic and do not get overwhelmed by emotion as some (?) do. No need for a "fan thread" by me because more and more people are realizing what is going on is a necessary business decision. If A/C and Westjet would be getting the millions and millions in bail out money that other world airlines were getting from their governments, I would also be jumping on their backs but they are not.

So, don't let facts get in the way of your emotions and imagination.



Actually, being 1/3 to 1/2 full has somewhat been the norm, to satisfy safety and social distancing requirements. This is why some routes and schedules have been altered.
So any company that doesn’t feel like they got enough government money during Covid is allowed to make their own rules? The rest of us are just supposed to say ‘oh we know those bandit airlines’ and let them do what they want? I can’t think of another industry or business that has the government turning a blind eye to taking someone’s money for a promised service, miscalculating their business model, canceling that service as a result and then giving out a coupon. No contract anywhere allowed for this. But then again when you’ve got your money back you haven’t walked a mile in the shoes of someone who hasn’t it’s hard to be objective.

These airlines are offering flights that they know will never depart in an attempt to secure 0 interest loans. That is wrong. Period.
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benjicash wrote: So any company that doesn’t feel like they got enough government money during Covid is allowed to make their own rules? The rest of us are just supposed to say ‘oh we know those bandit airlines’ and let them do what they want? I can’t think of another industry or business that has the government turning a blind eye to taking someone’s money for a promised service, miscalculating their business model, canceling that service as a result and then giving out a coupon. No contract anywhere allowed for this. But then again when you’ve got your money back you haven’t walked a mile in the shoes of someone who hasn’t it’s hard to be objective.

These airlines are offering flights that they know will never depart in an attempt to secure 0 interest loans. That is wrong. Period.
Did I say that? Answer...no. As a matter of fact, the Canadian airlines announce the policy long before subsidy was even contemplated.

They could have declared bankruptcy and then everyone would have been completely out of luck. Is that what would have satisfied you? Your quick to accuse and do not, in any way, understand that when you buy a ticket, you buy it with the fare rules and regulations that are in place. It is also written that changes can be made without requiring your assent. The moment you bought the ticket, you accepted all the rules of that purchase....plain and simple.

Argue with me all you want, call me what you want, accuse me of what you want but, the results are not of my making. My stance has been the same form the very beginning of this and while I have been constantly admonished, the fact is, most of the situations are still as it was in the beginning. The airlines are doing what is within their legal framework. Don't like it, take them to court and pay your legal team for the effort and relish the remaining funds (if any) should you win.

The airlines made schedule they hoped would be supported but, since they are not, they change them, as they have the right to do.

I got money back for some trips but also had to accept vouchers or miles for others so, I have walked a mile in those shoes..
Last edited by Pete_Coach on Sep 20th, 2020 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pete_Coach wrote: Did I say that? Answer...no. As a matter of fact, the Canadian airlines announce the policy long before subsidy was even contemplated.

They could have declared bankruptcy and then everyone would have been completely out of luck. Is that what would have satisfied you? Your quick to accuse and do not, in any way, understand that when you buy a ticket, you buy it with the fare rules and regulations that are in place. It is also written that changes can be made without requiring your assent. The moment you bought the ticket, you accepted all the rules of that purchase....plain and simple.

Argue with me all you want but, the results are not of my making. They are what is within their legal framework. Don't like it, take them to court and pay your legal team for the effort and relish the remaining funds (if any) should you win.

The airlines made schedule they hoped would be supported but, since they are not, they change them, as they have the right to do.

I got money back for some trips but also had to accept vouchers or miles for others so, I have walked a mile in those shoes..
Yes. Those are called business decisions. When you get them wrong you don’t use your customers as a safety net. Unless you’re a Canadian airline. That they might fail if they aren’t allowed to conduct business irresponsibly is hardly reason to allow it. What incentive is their to make wise decisions or even try to if you can just keep the money?

The bogus statement from CTA that started this entire thing has afforded Canadian airlines a business strategy. Sell non existent flights and get 0 interest loans. I notice you’ve not once condemned that action.

You keep saying this is all in the tariffs. Point out where that is because it isn’t. That is why they needed Morneau and the CTA to issue their make it up as we go statement you once called a ruling. If there were clear rules in the tariffs they would not have needed that. Morneau as we know, is happy to handle the testicles of the airlines and the CTA issues their bogus statement that every airline employee is magically trained on within 24 hours. How fast do you think these same employees will be trained on a favourable court ruling that says refunds are to be given? Weeks, months or never?
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benjicash wrote: Yes. Those are called business decisions. When you get them wrong you don’t use your customers as a safety net. Unless you’re an Canadian airline. That they might fail if they aren’t allowed to conduct business irresponsibly is hardly reason to allow it.

The bogus statement form CTA that started this entire thing has afforded Canadian airlines a business strategy. Sell non existent flights and get 0 interest loans. I notice you’ve not once condemned that action.

You keep saying this is all in the tariffs. Point out where that is because it isn’t. That is why they needed Morneau and the CTA to issue their make it up as we go statement you once called a ruling. If there were clear rules in the tariffs they would not have needed that. Morneau as we know, is happy to handle the testicles of the airlines and the CTA issues their bogus statement that every airline employee is magically trained on within 24 hours. How fast do you think these same employees will be trained on a favourable court ruling that says refunds are to be given? Weeks, months or never?
Oh my. :facepalm:
Bottom line is that it is what it is......since March. Blame whomever you wish but it is still where it is. Arguing with me and calling me out and calling me names gets you.....nothing.
If there are no clear rules...the courts would be able to tear down what is happening but... CTA has nothing to do with an airline making route and schedule changes at this time. These changes are not COVID but are low passenger support and so, they make the changes.
As I said earlier, this recent change in schedule and route, while similar, is not the same as the past. One is business based and the past was legislated. Arguing with me will change, as I already said, absolutely nothing. Getting emotional with me also gets you the same.
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Pete_Coach wrote: Oh my. :facepalm:
Bottom line is that it is what it is......since March. Blame whomever you wish but it is still where it is. Arguing with me and calling me out and calling me names gets you.....nothing.
If there are no clear rules...the courts would be able to tear down what is happening but... CTA has nothing to do with an airline making route and schedule changes at this time.
As I said earlier, this recent change in schedule and route, while similar, is not the same as the past. One is business based and the past was legislated. Arguing with me will change, as I already said, absolutely nothing. Getting emotional with me also gets you the same.
I’m hardly getting emotional there Pete. And I don’t recall calling you any names.

The airlines, like many others use the courts as a strategy. They know it takes an eternity and is expensive. That alone makes people in the right capitulate. They know that and the number that are likely to capitulate is factored into the decision making.

I’m curious, is there another industry that could take this approach and have your support or is it just the airlines?
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benjicash wrote: I’m hardly getting emotional there Pete. And I don’t recall calling you any names.

The airlines, like many others use the courts as a strategy. They know it takes an eternity and is expensive. That alone makes people in the right capitulate. They know that and the number that are likely to capitulate is factored into the decision making.

I’m curious, is there another industry that could take this approach and have your support or is it just the airlines?
Look, as I have said, and have said from the beginning of this crisis, the airlines initially were legislated into doing what they had to or could do. Not just Canadian airlines but all airlines. Airlines (and many big businesses) operate on small cash flow and they ran out of cash early on and in order to give clients something, they offered vouchers and credits. They had no money to give so they gave what they could. As this dragged on, it got even worse for their financial position. Those are facts and the situations. I may or may not agree with it but I am realistic and logical enough to understand this. So many were not and let emotion and falsehoods and group dynamics overtake the reality of things.

The situation that exists now, with A/C and WS is not of the past issues, it is diminished passenger capacity and underused routes and schedules. The routes and schedules have to been announced yet but people are jumping up and down about scams and getting screwed. So hence, they make changes. Schedule change all the time for a variety of reasons but now it seems it is a scam. No one has yet said their flights are cancelled or altered or changed yet this thread has turned it into some sort of airline screwing everyone issue. They have already said they will change the passenger sot a different flight. No one is getting screwed, inconvenienced maybe but,...

Yes, the legal recourse will take time and will most likely cost more to adjudicate than the cost of the ticket, that is a given. That is why I have suggested the non expiring vouchers be take so that when this is all over, at least you can go n a vacation again.

As for the story, it starts off with a Transat issue, not even A/C or WS. Thing with Transat is that they were under the possibility of a buy out prior to COVID and who knows now. They have no money to operate in their own so what is happening wit them? Booking with them, during COVID , is not a smart thing to do. If any airline is screwing anyone, it would be Transat by accepting booking for the Fall and Winter southern vacations.

I am not supporting, I am only trying to reason and inject reality into what is clearly an emotional issue. Of course it would be great if everyone got all their money back, I have said that in other threads but the reality is no money, can't do it. No matter how much hate, they cannot give what the don't have.

As a seasoned traveler with many decades of business travel and as many vacations, I am very supportive of the travel industry, be it airlines, hotels, agencies, tour operators, cruise lines, railways and all the ancillary businesses that depend on the travel sector. I actually supported the auto industry when they went into crisis and got big bail outs so they could operate and produce. I would support airline bail out as well, so they could keep operating and refund passengers.

Sorry about the length. I am not arguing, just trying to be undramatic.
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