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*Canucks Talk on RFD*

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Canucks might not lead the league in points next year. But they'll lead in Swiss players, Janniks/Yannicks, and maybe Brandons.
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Haz wrote: Sutter is a 3rd line center. There has to be another part of this deal. On its own, it doesn't make any sense.
I'm guessing the plan is to have Horvat and Sutter compete for the 2nd line centre role. Maybe Sutter does have more to his game, even if both analytics and his career so far suggest otherwise.

Sutter is a UFA after next season, so they could also potentially trade him at the deadline for a 1st. However, considering Benning's previous moves, it's more likely that they'll give him an extension with an overpayment.

Also, the 3rd coming back is apparently the Canucks pick that was initally sent to the NYI for Andrey Pedan a few months ago. This does mean that they have the 1st, 2nd and 3rd for next year, bringing them back into position for an offer sheet.....
i6s1 wrote: Canucks might not lead the league in points next year. But they'll lead in Swiss players, Janniks/Yannicks, and maybe Brandons.
Hopefully this team has something in Horvat, Virtanen, McCann, Shinkaruk and Boeser. Otherwise I can't say I see anything other than mediocrity for a long time.
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scv wrote: I'm guessing the plan is to have Horvat and Sutter compete for the 2nd line centre role. Maybe Sutter does have more to his game, even if both analytics and his career so far suggest otherwise.
Sutter had a 21 goal season but he's a big (6'3") defensive center, a good fit for 3rd line replacing Matthias. Plus he's good faceoff man.
scv wrote: Sutter is a UFA after next season, so they could also potentially trade him at the deadline for a 1st. However, considering Benning's previous moves, it's more likely that they'll give him an extension with an overpayment.
Benning was on TSN 1040 saying he expects to re-sign Sutter in the next few days calling him a foundational player. He's $3.3m now. This can go up to $5m...

Sutter just finished his 1040 interview and was much more talkative than any other Sutter.
scv wrote: Also, the 3rd coming back is apparently the Canucks pick that was initally sent to the NYI for Andrey Pedan a few months ago. This does mean that they have the 1st, 2nd and 3rd for next year, bringing them back into position for an offer sheet.....
That pick traveled around a bit.
scv wrote: Hopefully this team has something in Horvat, Virtanen, McCann, Shinkaruk and Boeser. Otherwise I can't say I see anything other than mediocrity for a long time.
Benning said he will go with 7 D because he didn't want young guys like Corrado and Clandenning to sit in the press box too often. I wonder if we'll see Alex Grenier show up.

And yes, I expect some painful years ahead.
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I like the trade. Boninio wasn't that great. He was our second line center by default. Sutter was a third line center because Crosby and Malkin were ahead of him. I'll take Sutter over Bonino any day. This is also clearly setting up competition for him and Sutter for 2nd line center.

Also, apparently the third pick we get depends on which one is the better pick, which is even better.
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[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLIqJVfWgAAtxxn.png:large[/IMG]

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/team/Pittsburgh-Penguins

They're dancing in the streets in Pittsburgh over this trade. Sutter is a better 3rd line center than Bonino is a 2nd line center. But that's a pretty silly comparison to make. Sutter is better defensively but Bonino is far better offensively. Bonino has a 2 year term for less money. If the trade was straight up, it probably still wouldn't be a good deal. Add in Clendening and the picks, it's hard to present this as an improvement.

If the plan is to move Horvat to the 2nd line, then there's nothing wrong with dropping Bonino to the 3rd line instead of downgrading to Sutter.

Clendening wasn't overly impressive during his callup but he's only 22. If he goes on to become a top4 dman, the trade is awful. If he goes on to do nothing, it's probably still a bad trade.

It's hard to believe they're already working on an extension for Sutter, before they even know where he slots in. At least wait till December, see where he's slotting in. It's huge difference in pay if he's got a good handle on the 2c job or if he's 3c.


One thing should be extremely clear: The JB and TL don't care at all about fancy stats.
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Those "fancy stats" being thrown around are absolute garbage. They are made by people who have no clue what they are talking about and use these stats out of context. Anyone who actually watched either players will know that Sutter is the better player in this deal, hands down. I'm glad to be rid of Bonino. I wasn't looking forward to another year with him as a second line center.

It's funny how people are acting like we traded a bunch of superstars for some plug.
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After my initial reaction of WTF and actually get a better feel of what this trade means, I think it works for both sides.

Nick Bonino: Kesler really made it difficult for the Canucks basically only saying yes to Anaheim. Bonino had a good year in 2013-14 with the Duck mainly as a 3rd line center and picking up goals on the PP. The hope was he could elevate his game to a 2nd liner playing with another 3rd liner moving up in Chris Higgins. After a fantastic 7 goals in 14 games to start his Canucks career, Bonino went goalless for something like 15 games. He struggled for 50 to 60% of the season and was completely invisible in the playoffs. Obviously he's been miscast as a 2nd line center in Vancouver. With that said, I think he'll do well playing behind Crosby and Malkin and will likely repeat his 2013-14 offensive number or even better them seeing how wide open the East is compared to the West. Feel bad for him as he just bought a house in Vancouver but I think he's going to do well in Pittsburgh and it's probably better for him and both teams involved.

Adam Clendening: The Canucks really didn't lose Clendening, they lost Gustav Forsling. Forsling wowed at the World Juniors so for me, it sucked losing him. As for Clendening, both the Blackhawks and the Canucks gave up on him because he has some lateral movement issues and did not impress. This was more of a dump by the Canucks it feels like. They originally said they were going to carry 8 defensemen but now this gives Corrado more chances and maybe we'll even see Alexandre Grenier. Grenier stepped up his game during the Utica playoffs run and got the attention of Canucks management. Opening a roster spot also means we can carry another prospect like Jake Virtanen, spread out his 9 games, get him into the World Juniors and we can have him till January and still be able to send him back to junior without burning a year of his entry level contract.

Brandon Sutter: There had been talk of his name involved in a Kesler to Pittsburgh trade last year and also Gillis had interest in Sutter when he played for the Hurricanes. He had 21 goals last year on the 3rd line and only 81 other players in the NHL had more goals so that says something. He's a decent faceoff man at 50.4%. The plan looks like they will try Bo Horvat on the 2nd line but if that is too much, I'd much rather have Sutter on the 2nd line than Bonino. If the Canucks can lock Sutter in for a few more years, we can develop Jared McCann, Cole Cassels and Jake Virtanen, maybe even Brendan Gaunce. There has to be a succession plan for Henrik Sedin. Horvat, who is future captain material, isn't likely a 1st line center so we'll need time to develop others to see where we go and Sutter is a solid addition to help with the transition; old enough to be a veteran but young enough to be at his best for these transition years.

EDIT: The fact that Sutter is a right-handed centerman also helps with faceoffs on the right side. We needed that.

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GP Legend wrote: Those "fancy stats" being thrown around are absolute garbage. They are made by people who have no clue what they are talking about and use these stats out of context. Anyone who actually watched either players will know that Sutter is the better player in this deal, hands down. I'm glad to be rid of Bonino. I wasn't looking forward to another year with him as a second line center.

It's funny how people are acting like we traded a bunch of superstars for some plug.
Advance stats, like traditional stats, have limits. We always hear about how the plus-minus stat would suck if a player was just stepping onto the ice as his team is being scored on.

With advance stats, similar things happen. As an example, zone entries. You have to carry the puck across the blueline to have it consider a zone entry. If a player bounces the puck off the wall past the defender, crosses the blueline and gets the puck back with what is basically a pass to himself, it's not considered a zone entry even though he was the only player to possess the puck. Not only that, possession numbers go down.

Advance stats can provide more information but it's still in broad strokes. There's nothing like actually watching a player play and making real notes about his play.
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Advanced stats don't tell the whole story because there are so many of them, and it's easy to pick and choose the ones you need to validate your opinion. Everyone keeps touting Bonino as having better advanced stats than Sutter, but how about the more obvious stats like goals scored last year? Sutter scored 21, Bonino 15.

I believe that Sutter will be a more important player than Bonino going forward. Bonino is good, no doubt, but he doesn't strike me as a "core player", while Sutter does.
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Lone_Prodigy wrote: Advanced stats don't tell the whole story because there are so many of them, and it's easy to pick and choose the ones you need to validate your opinion. Everyone keeps touting Bonino as having better advanced stats than Sutter, but how about the more obvious stats like goals scored last year? Sutter scored 21, Bonino 15.
Cause that's tempered by the fact that Bonino has been a more prolific scorer over his career. I haven't looked it up, but I'd imagine too that Bonino faced tougher opponents on Vancouver's second line than Sutter did on Pittsburgh's 3rd. And Bonino has more assists. And even though they both played PP and SH, Vancouver's 2nd PP unit was not the same caliber as Pitts.

They both had 14 goals at even strength.

I don't consider the "doesn't tell the whole story" argument to be convincing. There will be no stat that tells the whole story, but stats still matter. Sidney Crosby has the best "z" whatever in the NHL. Advanced stats weren't simply cooked up, they do have predictive properties, moreso than goals scored and hits.

There are certainly intangibles, no proponent of advanced stats denies this. How much those weigh in relation to tangibles is debatable.
Lone_Prodigy wrote: I believe that Sutter will be a more important player than Bonino going forward. Bonino is good, no doubt, but he doesn't strike me as a "core player", while Sutter does.
And he also has a better haircut.

Sutter will be a core player because JB wants to sign him long term. But it's entirely possible to be a core player while still being not as good as another player. Vrbata probably isn't a core player because of his age and contract status, but he's still a better player than several members of the core.

I think that people weren't keen on Bonino because he's not a legit 2nd line center. But I think the same thing about Sutter. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Sutter will do just fine in that role.
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i6s1 wrote: Cause that's tempered by the fact that Bonino has been a more prolific scorer over his career. I haven't looked it up, but I'd imagine too that Bonino faced tougher opponents on Vancouver's second line than Sutter did on Pittsburgh's 3rd. And Bonino has more assists. And even though they both played PP and SH, Vancouver's 2nd PP unit was not the same caliber as Pitts.

They both had 14 goals at even strength.

I don't consider the "doesn't tell the whole story" argument to be convincing. There will be no stat that tells the whole story, but stats still matter. Sidney Crosby has the best "z" whatever in the NHL. Advanced stats weren't simply cooked up, they do have predictive properties, moreso than goals scored and hits.

There are certainly intangibles, no proponent of advanced stats denies this. How much those weigh in relation to tangibles is debatable.



And he also has a better haircut.

Sutter will be a core player because JB wants to sign him long term. But it's entirely possible to be a core player while still being not as good as another player. Vrbata probably isn't a core player because of his age and contract status, but he's still a better player than several members of the core.

I think that people weren't keen on Bonino because he's not a legit 2nd line center. But I think the same thing about Sutter. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Sutter will do just fine in that role.
Sutter never got a chance to really play second line center. He was always stuck in that third line role because of who was ahead of him. No one was surpassing Crosby and Malkin. Also, the fact that these advanced stats don't actually take that into account says it all. That's why context matters. If people actually watched either player people would realize Sutter is the better player. These stats are comparing a player playing second line minutes to a player playing third line minutes. Stats only matter when they are actually used properly. No one seems to actually be using these "advanced stats" properly or even understand what they really mean.

Sure, Bonino has more points overall, but he also played with better linemates than Sutter. Of course Bonino has more assists when he plays with Vrbata. Now Sutter gets to play with him, Burrows and Baertschi. I have a feeling his point totals will rise this coming season.
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i6s1 wrote: I haven't looked it up, but I'd imagine too that Bonino faced tougher opponents on Vancouver's second line than Sutter did on Pittsburgh's 3rd.
You aren't thinking that through....second lines often face the oppositions second line. Third lines often face the opponents FIRST line and attempt to shut them down. Sure coaches sometimes go with top line against top line and the score affects who sees ice time.....but in general the 3rd line will face the opponents top line far more often than the 2nd line will face the opponents top line.
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I'm not a Canucks fan and certainly have not been a fan of their off seasons move this year, but acquiring Sutter was a good move. Solid center, great FW's, awesome on the PK and a very durable player. Pretty sad that he left Pittsburgh.
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Hutton, McCann and Virtanen have made the team for 9 games at least. Adam Cracknell has also made the roster. Vey, Corrado and Biega have been waived.
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Corrado was claimed by Toronto.
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i6s1 wrote: Corrado was claimed by Toronto.
Yeah, heard that early this morning. Bad for us but good for Toronto. Corrado will be on TSN 1040 at 1130am today so in an hour.
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Linden sure danced around the Corrado sending down issue yesterday. Admitted putting Higgins on LTIR would've allowed them to keep Corrado on the main roster but still chose not to and didn't really explain why.
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1226 wrote: Linden sure danced around the Corrado sending down issue yesterday. Admitted putting Higgins on LTIR would've allowed them to keep Corrado on the main roster but still chose not to and didn't really explain why.
They would have had to send him down when Higgins came back. And he would have had a higher chance of getting claimed in month cause in all odds, they'll be some teams with injuries who could use some depth on defense.

If they keep him in Van in the #8 spot, he probably won't play much. So he wouldn't be able to develop and would be stuck in that role.

JB talked to 12-15 teams about a trade and had no interest. In all likelyhood, this means that the rest of the league saw his max potential limited to a bottom pair guy. And those guys are easy to get on waivers, from the farm, or UFAs.

So basically, they had to take the chance that he'd be claimed, in order to get him to Utica where he could develop. And now was the best chance to do so.
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i6s1 wrote: They would have had to send him down when Higgins came back. And he would have had a higher chance of getting claimed in month cause in all odds, they'll be some teams with injuries who could use some depth on defense.

If they keep him in Van in the #8 spot, he probably won't play much. So he wouldn't be able to develop and would be stuck in that role.

JB talked to 12-15 teams about a trade and had no interest. In all likelyhood, this means that the rest of the league saw his max potential limited to a bottom pair guy. And those guys are easy to get on waivers, from the farm, or UFAs.

So basically, they had to take the chance that he'd be claimed, in order to get him to Utica where he could develop. And now was the best chance to do so.
Getting a bag of hammers would have been better than getting nothing. A 22 year old right handed D man with some NHL experience is harder to come by. He's not top 4 material but was excellent depth.
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Haz wrote: Getting a bag of hammers would have been better than getting nothing. A 22 year old right handed D man with some NHL experience is harder to come by. He's not top 4 material but was excellent depth.
I have no doubt that JB tried to get something for him, and would have taken anything - knowing that any team willing to part with even a 7th round pick would have undoubtedly taken him for free on waivers given the chance. And worth noting is that the 3 worst teams in the league, who theoretically should have the greatest needs, passed on him when they could have had him for free. That says something about his value.

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