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Car insurance in Ontario with a past DUI?

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Car insurance in Ontario with a past DUI?

My son grew up in Ontario and obtained his full G license circa 2007 after going through driver's ed. He's an engineering-robotics graduate (Conestoga) and is now 31. If it's relevant, he's been insured under on his own policy since 2010.

He moved to Alberta to pursue a job opportunity in 2012. All was going well enough, but sometimes people make bad choices, and he got pulled over out in the back country one afternoon after a bit of partying. He blew over, then blew over again on the second test and was charged for DUI. Since the evidence was incontrovertible, he chose to bite the bullet and plead guilty in 2016. The result was a Section 253 conviction, a fine of $1,800 and a license suspension for 1 year. Rather than keep making loan and insurance payments on a car he wasn't allowed to drive, he immediately got rid of it and dropped his insurance. In early 2017 he finally gave up on Alberta altogether and moved back to Ontario where there were family supports.

After checking on what Ontario required to get his license reinstated, he completed the Back On Track program and was then issued an Ontario license in September 2017. But since he no longer had a car and doubted he could afford the insurance anyway, he chose to simply stop driving, managing to get around for the past 3 years thanks to public transit, cabs and family. He has not driven a vehicle or been a listed insured on his own or anyone else's policy since he dropped his coverage in Alberta back in 2016. He no longer drinks.

After 3+ years of this purgatory he wants to return to driving, if for no other reason than to expand his job possibilities (bus service to the industrial areas around here is just about non-existent... you really need a vehicle). As his dad, I'm trying to help where I can, which in this case mostly means playing banker. I have a line on a decent older vehicle for him, but everything I keep reading about the cost of auto insurance for someone with a DUI on their record scares the heck out of me.

My own insurer said they don't underwrite DUIs, so that idea got me nowhere. Googling didn't provide me with much useful information either, except to say if I have to go into the Facility pool to obtain insurance that I should expect to pay many, many thousands in premiums for many, many years. I have to believe there's another hidden market out there for DUIs.

So I'm hoping somebody here either knows the ropes on this, or maybe knows somebody else who does. Thanks in advance for any suggestions
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Not sure how accurate this is

https://highriskinsuranceontario.ca/dui ... e-ontario/
A DUI or impaired driving conviction will affect your insurance for 6 years. Although a DUI or impaired driving conviction comes off your driving record after 3 years, some high risk car insurance companies may continue to rate for a DUI until 6 years since the conviction has lapsed. Keep in mind that a DUI remains on your criminal record for 10 years!
So if your son was convicted in 2016, it should impact his insurance for another 2 years ? though lack of continuous insurance will cost extra

You need to get a broker for rates for drivers with DUI as only select companies provide this coverage
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The bit about something "remaining on your criminal record for 10 years" is nonsense. It remains on your criminal record for life. Criminal record doesn't just magically disappear after 10 years. You can apply for a record suspension after 5 years (previously called a "pardon") though you are not guaranteed to get it. If you have other criminal offences (things like assaults, thefts, etc.) then you will most lilkely not be granted a record suspension/pardon.

Criminal record has nothing to do with your insurance rate, however. Criminal record is more about affecting things like your ability to get certain jobs or cross borders/go on vacation, etc. Impaired driving conviction will not generally affect your ability to enter the USA since they don't consider it a Felony there. The reverse is not true as since Canada considers DUI/DWI charges, even though not Felonies in any US state AFAIK, it is considered Criminal equivalency here, so that [American] person will often not be let into Canada.

As for insurance it should only really last about 2-3 years on high-risk but since your son has not driven not sure what they do. He's had his licence back, albeit hasn't driven, for over three years now--are you sure he's still considered high-risk? Did you just tell your insurance company he had an Impaired conviction or did you tell them it was four years ago? If he's still stuck on high-risk because he hasn't had insurance or been driving since, that sucks but them's the breaks. The cost of high-risk is usually nearly double what it would be on regular insurance. Also getting any other convictions (even for light speeding) while on high-risk may result in even the high-risk company dropping him--just a heads up.

As a side note, there is no such thing as "DUI" in Canada. There are typically two [Criminal Code] charges which surround drinking & driving here--Impaired Driving, and Drive over 80 (over 80mg alcohol in 100mL of blood). There is also Fail to Provide Sample which is if you refuse to blow in the breathalyser a charge which results in the same penalties of the other two and is basically an automatic conviction (little to no defence to this charge).
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ES_Revenge wrote: The bit about something "remaining on your criminal record for 10 years" is nonsense. It remains on your criminal record for life. Criminal record doesn't just magically disappear after 10 years. You can apply for a record suspension after 5 years (previously called a "pardon") though you are not guaranteed to get it. If you have other criminal offences (things like assaults, thefts, etc.) then you will most lilkely not be granted a record suspension/pardon.

Criminal record has nothing to do with your insurance rate, however. Criminal record is more about affecting things like your ability to get certain jobs or cross borders/go on vacation, etc. Impaired driving conviction will not generally affect your ability to enter the USA since they don't consider it a Felony there. The reverse is not true as since Canada considers DUI/DWI charges, even though not Felonies in any US state AFAIK, it is considered Criminal equivalency here, so that [American] person will often not be let into Canada.

As for insurance it should only really last about 2-3 years on high-risk but since your son has not driven not sure what they do. He's had his licence back, albeit hasn't driven, for over three years now--are you sure he's still considered high-risk? Did you just tell your insurance company he had an Impaired conviction or did you tell them it was four years ago? If he's still stuck on high-risk because he hasn't had insurance or been driving since, that sucks but them's the breaks. The cost of high-risk is usually nearly double what it would be on regular insurance. Also getting any other convictions (even for light speeding) while on high-risk may result in even the high-risk company dropping him--just a heads up.

As a side note, there is no such thing as "DUI" in Canada. There are typically two [Criminal Code] charges which surround drinking & driving here--Impaired Driving, and Drive over 80 (over 80mg alcohol in 100mL of blood). There is also Fail to Provide Sample which is if you refuse to blow in the breathalyser a charge which results in the same penalties of the other two and is basically an automatic conviction (little to no defence to this charge).
Thanks very much for that. Understood about the need to actively get the conviction expunged, which has always been the plan once he can apply. As for the DUI reference, I was just using that as a descriptor. As you noted, he was actually convicted of BAC>.08 under Section 253 of the Criminal Code of Canada and his operator's license suspended under Section 83(1) of the Traffic Safety Act. DUI is just easier to type LOL.

After my original post I made contact with a former insurer of mine. They more or less echoed what you've described in your third paragraph, but they didn't seem to be bothered by the recent 3-year driving hiatus so long as he had more than 3 years of accumulated history as an insured party (which he does). So I gave them all the usual inputs over the phone, and they came back with a ballpark figure should he wish to pursue it. The premium they quoted was (just like you predicted) about twice what he would be paying absent the S.253 conviction, but it certainly wasn't the 5 or even 10 times the regular premium figure that some web articles are suggesting.

Then the first catch came -- verbal representations alone were insufficient for them to issue a binder, and we would first have to submit a written OAF1 insurance application for manual review by their underwriting department for purposes of verification. The form is a fill-able PDF and not that complex, but it does require the applicant to provide a lot of detailed driving-related history (e.g. names, dates, and reference numbers that many people would have difficulty remembering or locating records for). It's also a one-size-fits-all type form, so most of the juicy stuff they specifically requested we actually had to type out longhand in the "Remarks" section. Anyway, after taking a few cracks at it and then reviewing and refining our answers over the phone with a helpful agent, we were able to find all the related documents and complete the form over the course of an afternoon.

So now we have to wait for 3-4 weeks until underwriting finishes their review. Since my son seems to satisfy the conditions described by the agents and we were able to provide all the detailed information they requested, I don't anticipate any surprises, but I'm well aware that a carrier offering to review an application is not the same thing as saying they're going to take him on. Fingers crossed
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threadhead wrote: Thanks very much for that. Understood about the need to actively get the conviction expunged, which has always been the plan once he can apply. As for the DUI reference, I was just using that as a descriptor. As you noted, he was actually convicted of BAC>.08 under Section 253 of the Criminal Code of Canada and his operator's license suspended under Section 83(1) of the Traffic Safety Act. DUI is just easier to type LOL.
Be careful to look at all angles before jumping into getting the conviction expunged. As mentioned in another post, the Americans don’t really see the conviction as a barrier to entry. However, once you get the “pardon” they don’t see the conviction any more and instead they see that there’s a “pardon” in the file with no other details. As a result of being “blind” to the underlying reason they fear the worst and deny entry.

This has been a topical concern of late with Canadians getting old records for pot removed and then getting stopped at the border. Bottom line is to check with a lawyer specializing in border issues before you take a decision. The same lawyer should also be able to explain all of the pros/cons on the implications within Canada too so that you can make a more informed decision.
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CanadianLurker wrote: Be careful to look at all angles before jumping into getting the conviction expunged. As mentioned in another post, the Americans don’t really see the conviction as a barrier to entry. However, once you get the “pardon” they don’t see the conviction any more and instead they see that there’s a “pardon” in the file with no other details. As a result of being “blind” to the underlying reason they fear the worst and deny entry.

This has been a topical concern of late with Canadians getting old records for pot removed and then getting stopped at the border. Bottom line is to check with a lawyer specializing in border issues before you take a decision. The same lawyer should also be able to explain all of the pros/cons on the implications within Canada too so that you can make a more informed decision.
Very good advice, thank you for posting
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threadhead wrote: Thanks very much for that. Understood about the need to actively get the conviction expunged, which has always been the plan once he can apply. As for the DUI reference, I was just using that as a descriptor. As you noted, he was actually convicted of BAC>.08 under Section 253 of the Criminal Code of Canada and his operator's license suspended under Section 83(1) of the Traffic Safety Act. DUI is just easier to type LOL.
LOL gotcha.
threadhead wrote: After my original post I made contact with a former insurer of mine. They more or less echoed what you've described in your third paragraph, but they didn't seem to be bothered by the recent 3-year driving hiatus so long as he had more than 3 years of accumulated history as an insured party (which he does). So I gave them all the usual inputs over the phone, and they came back with a ballpark figure should he wish to pursue it. The premium they quoted was (just like you predicted) about twice what he would be paying absent the S.253 conviction, but it certainly wasn't the 5 or even 10 times the regular premium figure that some web articles are suggesting.
Still if they don't care about the 3yr hiatus then it's odd they want to charge him 2x--you should check out other insurers because if they will insure him (i.e. not say he has to go with a high-risk insurer) then they also shouldn't be charging such a huge premium. But yeah I don't think you're going to get a 5-10x rate even if it was the day he was eligible to drive again, not with just a single conviction for over 80.
threadhead wrote: Then the first catch came -- verbal representations alone were insufficient for them to issue a binder, and we would first have to submit a written OAF1 insurance application for manual review by their underwriting department for purposes of verification. The form is a fill-able PDF and not that complex, but it does require the applicant to provide a lot of detailed driving-related history (e.g. names, dates, and reference numbers that many people would have difficulty remembering or locating records for). It's also a one-size-fits-all type form, so most of the juicy stuff they specifically requested we actually had to type out longhand in the "Remarks" section.
That's also a bit nuts, never heard of that either so I dunno what that's all about. Again perhaps try quotes online and see what it comes up with. If he's stuck with high-risk it will come up with nothing and say you have to call or something.

Also did your son did the remedial business and then applied for his licence, getting a interlock condition on it correct? I believe even if you don't drive you have to do that and then stick with it like that for a year (an additional year over the suspension period) and then the I condition can be removed. It sounds like he did but just making sure. I've heard of people not bothering to do this and then when they go a year later they still need to have the I condition (and an interlock if they choose to drive) for that full year before being able to drive w/o one. Perhaps waiting for the I condition to be released is also a key in getting better insurance? I'm not sure though, a friend's brother went through all this a couple years back.
threadhead wrote: So now we have to wait for 3-4 weeks until underwriting finishes their review. Since my son seems to satisfy the conditions described by the agents and we were able to provide all the detailed information they requested, I don't anticipate any surprises, but I'm well aware that a carrier offering to review an application is not the same thing as saying they're going to take him on. Fingers crossed
I still think it's a bit much but yeah cross your fingers.
CanadianLurker wrote: Be careful to look at all angles before jumping into getting the conviction expunged. As mentioned in another post, the Americans don’t really see the conviction as a barrier to entry. However, once you get the “pardon” they don’t see the conviction any more and instead they see that there’s a “pardon” in the file with no other details. As a result of being “blind” to the underlying reason they fear the worst and deny entry.
I'm not so sure that's true. Unless you were convicted of a sex offence, a record suspension will remove your record from CPIC and I believe you are legally allowed to have your fingerprints destroyed as well. (Sexual offences mean you are still in CPIC.) Your record can be found as being "set aside" via other means but typically this takes investigation by prosecutor, etc. to find. The police won't be able to see it from either CPIC or your fingerprints (provided you had your fingerprints destroyed by following the correct procedures--this is a separate thing).

However with a driving offence the police can still see your licence was suspended previously and what for--only if you were found not guilty would this information not appear and/or be redacted (in which case a record suspension wouldn't even be a discussion). This is because your licence suspension is provincial and has nothing to do with a criminal record and will always be visible to police (insurers typically can't see passed 3-5 years though but they can also get this information from previous insurers/policies). So for police to see this and put two and two together, it's not hard for them to understand you were previously convicted of an impaired charge. But the people at borders also can't look up provincial licence history unless they go to investigate further. What they can do is take your fingerprints which will link back to your CPIC record, but if there is no CPIC record and you've had your print information legally destroyed, then they will see nothing.

The other trick to this is record suspensions cannot reach any farther than the borders of Canada. Meaning if you ever crossed the border prior to having your record suspended, and it was discovered you had a record, US CPB would have put that information into their system and that can never be erased after that point. In other words the safest bet is to not cross the border until you get a record suspension. US does not recognise our "pardons" (and they have completely different laws and regulations regarding their own pardons which can typically only be granted by Governors, President, etc.) so if they know you have a record, they know, that's it they will store you in their system for life.

Again though "DUI" convictions don't really mean much to US CBP, but sometimes people can inadvertently get convicted with other things in "DUI" occrences (like fail to stop for police, resisting arrest, etc.) in the process which means they are screwed. Also other countries may well care about impaired driving convictions meaning if you don't get a record suspension for them before attempting to travel there, you may be in for a surprise as you get turned back to Canada.
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This thread has been very informative and the initial post was detailed and clear.

Even though I have not ever had impaired charges or convictions many years ago I did receive a careless driving citation after an accident and I found out then my insurance would double if convicted and stay really high for up to 5 years. Luckily I found a reasonable lawyer and had the charges dismissed after going before a justice of the peace.

That dismissal was also a stroke of good luck but not because the lawyer did anything other than recommending we fight it. Had I pled guilty my insurance would have been super high for a long time.
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ES_Revenge wrote:
I'm not so sure that's true. Unless you were convicted of a sex offence, a record suspension will remove your record from CPIC and I believe you are legally allowed to have your fingerprints destroyed as well. (Sexual offences mean you are still in CPIC.) Your record can be found as being "set aside" via other means but typically this takes investigation by prosecutor, etc. to find. The police won't be able to see it from either CPIC or your fingerprints (provided you had your fingerprints destroyed by following the correct procedures--this is a separate thing).

However with a driving offence the police can still see your licence was suspended previously and what for--only if you were found not guilty would this information not appear and/or be redacted (in which case a record suspension wouldn't even be a discussion). This is because your licence suspension is provincial and has nothing to do with a criminal record and will always be visible to police (insurers typically can't see passed 3-5 years though but they can also get this information from previous insurers/policies). So for police to see this and put two and two together, it's not hard for them to understand you were previously convicted of an impaired charge. But the people at borders also can't look up provincial licence history unless they go to investigate further. What they can do is take your fingerprints which will link back to your CPIC record, but if there is no CPIC record and you've had your print information legally destroyed, then they will see nothing.

The other trick to this is record suspensions cannot reach any farther than the borders of Canada. Meaning if you ever crossed the border prior to having your record suspended, and it was discovered you had a record, US CPB would have put that information into their system and that can never be erased after that point. In other words the safest bet is to not cross the border until you get a record suspension. US does not recognise our "pardons" (and they have completely different laws and regulations regarding their own pardons which can typically only be granted by Governors, President, etc.) so if they know you have a record, they know, that's it they will store you in their system for life.

Again though "DUI" convictions don't really mean much to US CBP, but sometimes people can inadvertently get convicted with other things in "DUI" occrences (like fail to stop for police, resisting arrest, etc.) in the process which means they are screwed. Also other countries may well care about impaired driving convictions meaning if you don't get a record suspension for them before attempting to travel there, you may be in for a surprise as you get turned back to Canada.
I don’t disagree with you, but there’s something of an issue with the data feed that goes to US CBP vs what Canadian law enforcement can see in their systems such as CPIC. Add in the vindictive nature of the Trump regime and their border paranoia and there have been a number of stories in the past few years similar to this one:

https://globalnews.ca/news/6371852/pard ... us-border/

He never had trouble at the U.S. border — until he got a pardon. Here’s what seems to be happening

.... After the pardon, though, he found himself caught in a catch-22 at the border. Before, U.S. border guards could see that his record was for something they didn’t care about. After, all that they could see was that he had a pardon — but no way of knowing what it was for......



I’m not saying to drop the pardon idea, but to go into it knowing the full pros/cons from a lawyer familiar with US immigration issues in order to understand all of the implications. Maybe there’s some additional steps you can take to get a visa or maybe there’s some acceptable paperwork you can carry and it becomes a non-issue.

You don’t want to find out the hard way that they won’t let you in like the guy in the article, so I’m just advocating to get professional legal advice before making a hasty decision.
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I have written quite a few ppl with DUI, impaired/over 80 convictions etc without placing them with Facility.. Facility is always the last resort. The DUI will remain in his record for 3 years from the date of conviction but the lic suspension will remain on for 6 years plus he also has the not having insurance for a while which will most likely affect his rates as well.
Last edited by COSMIC5 on Aug 8th, 2020 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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convictions stay for 3 years from the date of conviction
StatsGuy wrote: Not sure how accurate this is

https://highriskinsuranceontario.ca/dui ... e-ontario/



So if your son was convicted in 2016, it should impact his insurance for another 2 years ? though lack of continuous insurance will cost extra

You need to get a broker for rates for drivers with DUI as only select companies provide this coverage
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ES_Revenge wrote:
Still if they don't care about the 3yr hiatus then it's odd they want to charge him 2x--you should check out other insurers because if they will insure him (i.e. not say he has to go with a high-risk insurer) then they also shouldn't be charging such a huge premium. But yeah I don't think you're going to get a 5-10x rate even if it was the day he was eligible to drive again, not with just a single conviction for over 80.
You make an interesting point about the logic there. All I know is what the agent told me, i.e. that the hiatus, in and of itself, did not automatically disqualify him from obtaining coverage because he still had enough of a driving history to underwrite the risk, despite having been off the road and without a policy for the past 40-odd months. She even put me on hold and went and consulted her manual about it. I hope she wasn't mistaken, but you've now planted the idea in my head that I shouldn't assume she was right.

Also, I actually have checked other insurers (sort of). That night after my original post I was researching high-risk carriers like Echelon and when I came across a link to an online quotation questionnaire (Kanetix I think). I completed it (with a few minor alterations to disguise my son's identity) and was surprised to see it come back with 4 actual quotes, one of which was from a former carrier of my own. That's when I decided to call that former carrier up and see if the online offer was legit, which it was. As we provided more detail to them verbally, their online quoted price started coming down even further, and that's when we started working on filing the formal application.

Although it's already in the works, I believe you have a good idea that we should cover our butts and not stop at this single application because underwriting might still reject it. Also, given that we've already gone to the hassle of assembling all of my son's driving history data, we have nothing to lose by placing the same information in front of other potential carriers, certainly the 3 others that responded to the original online quotation exercise.

So thanks for the insight on that aspect of things
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COSMIC5 wrote: convictions stay for 3 years from the date of conviction
Thanks..so even a DUI is "only" going to affect insurance for 3 years like other tickets?

Edit

Read you mentioned 6 years?
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ES_Revenge wrote:
Also did your son did the remedial business and then applied for his licence, getting a interlock condition on it correct? I believe even if you don't drive you have to do that and then stick with it like that for a year (an additional year over the suspension period) and then the I condition can be removed. It sounds like he did but just making sure. I've heard of people not bothering to do this and then when they go a year later they still need to have the I condition (and an interlock if they choose to drive) for that full year before being able to drive w/o one. Perhaps waiting for the I condition to be released is also a key in getting better insurance?
Here's the sequence of events in case it has any bearing on things. He received a 1-year suspension in Alberta in April 2016 and would have been subject to Interlock for another year after that, but he immediately got rid of his car and stopped driving entirely. He then moved back to Ontario with his suspension still in force. When we first approached MTO in June 2017 about getting his license back, they said he had to complete Back On Track but they would not require Interlock (we didn't ask why not). He did his Back on Track program in August 2017 and got his certificate. I then had to clear one outstanding Alberta ticket and also pay some transfer fees to get them to release his file to Ontario. With all the required ducks now in a row, we returned to the MTO office in October 2017 and they reinstated his license.
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COSMIC5 wrote: I have written quite a few ppl with DUI, impaired/over 80 convictions etc without placing them with Facility.. Facility is always the last resort. The DUI will remain in his record for 3 years from the date of conviction but the lic suspension will remain on for 6 years plus he also has the not having insurance for a while which will most likely affect his rates as well.
Thanks. As I learn more about this, I gather that despite the agent characterizing not having had recent policy coverage as "not being a show stopper" so to speak, it definitely WILL affect the premium
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UrbanPoet wrote: Facility insurance is expensive...
But if he can get a good job from driving into industrial areas, he should take it. Look @ it as a “good job” fee.
Sucks... but i’d like to hope eventually he can get his rates down.

If not... i heard self driving cars are the future :-/
Yeah, that's generally the idea behind all this effort. He needs to widen his scope of suitable employers. No doubt he could get a job within walking distance of home at the local Dollarama or the gas station, but that's not exactly a career building step for someone who was programming and operating robotic welders out in Alberta
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George613 wrote: This thread has been very informative and the initial post was detailed and clear.

Even though I have not ever had impaired charges or convictions many years ago I did receive a careless driving citation after an accident and I found out then my insurance would double if convicted and stay really high for up to 5 years. Luckily I found a reasonable lawyer and had the charges dismissed after going before a justice of the peace.

That dismissal was also a stroke of good luck but not because the lawyer did anything other than recommending we fight it. Had I pled guilty my insurance would have been super high for a long time.
Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but I'm left with the impression you might believe that my son pleading guilty was a mistake. Not so. While I believe that you probably did the correct thing in your own situation by posturing that you intended to defend your careless driving charge, my son was caught dead-to-rights on an unambiguous BAC>.08 charge and he knew it. He quickly concluded that he didn't need to pay a lawyer $1,500 to tell him what he already knew, so he opted to own what he'd done and plead guilty. He was almost certainly going to be found guilty anyway.

There's another dimension to this. I can't speak for cops everywhere, but in my own neck of the woods it's known in insurance circles that the local police tend to overcharge people for strategic purposes when it comes to traffic accidents. So as an example, let's say one car runs into the back of another vehicle. The police come on the scene and the officer charges the rear-ending party not only with following too closely, but also with careless driving on top. The rear-ending party and their lawyer put their focus on getting the more serious careless charge dropped, and gladly accept the lesser charge of following too closely in order to accomplish it. The end result is that 1 of the 2 police charges sticks, and it's hooray, the police have statistics to prove they're doing their job.

It's also important to note that a charge of careless driving is based on a judgment call, whereas a charge of driving with BAC>.08 is based on fact. So while a defendant can later present arguments to suggest that whatever they've done doesn't rise to the level of careless (and therefore might be able to get that charge dismissed), there's generally not much one can do to dispute a properly administered BAC test

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