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Cast iron drain stack -- replace with plastic?

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Cast iron drain stack -- replace with plastic?

I am doing a kitchen reno and a partial bath reno that has the benefit of exposing my entire plumbing stack, in a 1917 house in Toronto. The stack is cast iron hub/spigot from the basement ceiling up to the roof vent. The portion in the basement has been replaced with black plastic in a previous reno.

Overall everything appears in good condition with no cracks or holes or leaks. All the drains connected to it are black plastic (not iron/galvanised pipe). My contractor suggests considering having it replaced with modern PVC, and is having a plumber over to give advice/estimate for the job.

From what I read online, cast iron is tremendously durable if the stack is not under stress, and better sound insulated. Plastic is generally more immune to problems and lighter, but allows more noise through and more prone to bad seals and connections than ancient lead/oakum seals that are in good condition after decades of use.

Below are some pictures. I will see why my contractor and the plumber say, but does anyone here with experience have any suggestions? Replace while everything is accessible? Or just update and re-support all the CI and leave good as-is? If you were a plumber, what would be a ballpark estimate for this work?

Upstairs bathroom and up to attic:
[IMG]http://hoob.smugmug.com/Home-Living/Pic ... 3787-L.jpg[/IMG]

Main level kitchen:
[IMG]http://hoob.smugmug.com/Home-Living/Pic ... 3780-L.jpg[/IMG]

Basement, coupled to plastic at ceiling level:
[IMG]http://hoob.smugmug.com/Home-Living/Pic ... 3786-L.jpg[/IMG]
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If they are in good shape I wouldn't replace them. They are much quieter and very durable. I'm currently doing a Reno that has cast iron pipes but I'm only removing a small section to accommodate the new drain lines.
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That looks more like copper to me.
If you knock on the pipe (like you would a door) and it dings like a bell, then you probably have copper.
I wouldn't replace copper.
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alkizmo wrote: That looks more like copper to me.
If you knock on the pipe (like you would a door) and it dings like a bell, then you probably have copper.
I wouldn't replace copper.
Knocking on it is like knocking on a concrete wall.. More of a dull thud instead of a ding or a clang. There are hints of surface rust in some spots though so I'm pretty sure it's cast iron and not clay.

One downside is there's no clean out access anywhere in the stack, so it would have to be done from the roof with a looong snake.
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That is definitely not copper, it's hub and spigot cast pipe. If I were in your shoes I would replace the entire thing and replace as much of the existing DWV piping with ABS. As for noise, all the piping is located behind drywall and the difference between cast and ABS is negligible in this situation. By code you need a clean out as the stack enters the building, so that picture of the toilet in your basement with the stack behind it, there should be a clean out just above the floor. Judging by the other examples of plumbing I see in your pictures nothing seems to be vented properly so I would just start fresh.
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jonnyb wrote: That is definitely not copper, it's hub and spigot cast pipe. If I were in your shoes I would replace the entire thing and replace as much of the existing DWV piping with ABS. As for noise, all the piping is located behind drywall and the difference between cast and ABS is negligible in this situation. By code you need a clean out as the stack enters the building, so that picture of the toilet in your basement with the stack behind it, there should be a clean out just above the floor. Judging by the other examples of plumbing I see in your pictures nothing seems to be vented properly so I would just start fresh.
Actually things do seem to be vented properly from what I can tell: not "elegantly" but the upstairs bathroom sink and tub, and kitchen sink were all tied into dry venting connected into the stack at mid level in the upstairs bathroom.

You can see it better in this picture, with the vent from the kitchen rising up the right of the stack, and the two vents for the bathroom leading up to a connection hidden behind the block holding the shower valve.

[IMG]http://hoob.smugmug.com/Home-Living/Pic ... 3792-M.jpg[/IMG]

The basement is another story, and definitely lacking a clean-out. But the toilet seems to have adequate flow. The sink rough in and the laundry just seem to be tied into the floor drain and far from ideal, but working and redoing that isn't in scope.

I will wait for info/quote from plumber. Unless it's an astronomical amount I will probably go for it. I'm thinging the top part of the stack that goes through the roof can probably be left as-is to avoid mucking with the roof seal, and just couple ABS is from the attic down should be good.
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The cleanout might just be under the floor tiles in the basement.
Mine barely shows out from the concrete slab.
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with your house being so old i would be cautious about asbestos. that is always a big concern for me when i get projects for old homes. i would upgrade to pvc instead of abs, its stronger. also abs can output very toxic fumes when melted. for instance when you accidentally pour hot oil down the sink. also its more compact than your current cast iron pipe, so you might be able to get a tad bit more space
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alkizmo wrote: The cleanout might just be under the floor tiles in the basement.
Mine barely shows out from the concrete slab.
A stack cleanout is required to be above grade
The clean out you are referring to is the main line clean out as it exits the building downstream of all tie ins, which is also required


And the basement sink is definitely not vented as what you see is called an "s" trap which is against code


OP if I were you I would change it now and not later
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gotrice wrote: i would upgrade to pvc instead of abs, its stronger. also abs can output very toxic fumes when melted. for instance when you accidentally pour hot oil down the sink. also its more compact than your current cast iron pipe, so you might be able to get a tad bit more space
Which schedule or system of PVC are u speaking of?


And you shouldn't pour hot oil down your drain anyway
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hitman_24 wrote: A stack cleanout is required to be above grade
The clean out you are referring to is the main line clean out as it exits the building downstream of all tie ins, which is also required

And the basement sink is definitely not vented as what you see is called an "s" trap which is against code

OP if I were you I would change it now and not later
Thanks. Still waiting for info from my contractor but if I have any work done I will certainly have them add in the clean-out in the basement, and run at the very least a wet vent to that basement sink instead of running it into the floor.

If I have a guy onsite to do anything might as well take advantage of it to fix things up that are easy to fix!

BTW when you stand at the sink you're literally standing on the floor drain the sink is tied into, and you can hear the running drain water. I never use the sink though. :)
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hoob wrote: run at the very least a wet vent to that basement sink instead of running it into the floor. BTW when you standa at the sink you're literally standing on the floor drain the sink is tied into, and you can hear the running drain water. I never use the sink though. :)
Both of which are illegal

The only way you could meet code without breaking your floor is capping off the existing, tieing into the stack and adding a back vent extending above the highest fixture in the house or locating an existing vent pipe to tie into
or a cheater vent if the inspector passes it
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hitman_24 wrote: Both of which are illegal
*shrug*... That's why my contractor and myself are talking to a real plumber. If doing it properly requires a full dry vent (I just don't know) there's about a 30cm square column of space to work with that's complete open from basement to attic so it should be an easy enough job for someone skilled in the art.

Are wet vents illegal (or, whatever the "shallow tilt up to 5' less than the diameter of the pipe" is called) -- it seams that's what my 2004 condo kitchen sink had.
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hoob wrote: *shrug*... That's why my contractor and myself are talking to a real plumber. If doing it properly requires a full dry vent (I just don't know) there's about a 30cm square column of space to work with that's complete open from basement to attic so it should be an easy enough job for someone skilled in the art.

Are wet vents illegal (or, whatever the "shallow tilt up to 5' less than the diameter of the pipe" is called) -- it seams that's what my 2004 condo kitchen sink had.
Wet venting is not illegal, in this application it would be

In this situation It would be considered a multi storey wet vent and the fixture units draining from the above storey would well exceed that maximum allowance of 4 fixture units per storey above the first storey

A condo would be a multi storey wet vent for their kitchen stacks as they could tie in 2 kitchen lines per floor to it as each sink would be 1.5 fixture units totalling 3 fixture units.
The stack would be sized according to the total fixture units of all floors excluding the ground floor
The developed length also would no more than 1500mm (5ft)
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hitman_24 wrote: Which schedule or system of PVC are u speaking of?


And you shouldn't pour hot oil down your drain anyway
obviously your not suppose to pour hot oil down the drain but some people do it anyway....

if the op wants quieter drains use schedule 80 as it has thicker walls then schedule 40 but its more costly
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gotrice wrote: obviously your not suppose to pour hot oil down the drain but some people do it anyway....

if the op wants quieter drains use schedule 80 as it has thicker walls then schedule 40 but its more costly
Are u even a plumber? Schedule 80 is almost 99% of the time only used in pressure situations and DwV schedule 80 is next to impossible to find and fitting are astronomically expensive and I'm pretty sure they don't even make it anymore, nobody in their right mind would use it in a residential application anyway

As a licensed and experienced plumber I would recommend system 15 above ground if the op wants to upgrade, otherwise ABS will suit just fine
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Thanks for input from everyone. After receiving some quotes, while the amount is a bit higher than my (not well informed) gut estimate, I have decided to go ahead with the work, replacing everything from the basement up regarding DWV. The guys on site for the estimate confirmed there were problems with the upstairs bathroom venting as well as toilet pipe, so fixing all that is included in the quote.

Will also have vent feed into basement so that I can eventually tie in the two S-trapped basement fixtures (laundry sink ad bathroom sink) into the main stack, but I'll defer that as it can be scheduled later instead of impacting the main work in progress now.

Knowing that they are problems in the DWV design, the cast iron stack is in a grey area of its anticipated lifespan even though problem free now, and that now is the prime opportunity to revisit it and preemptively correct it, I would kick myself if I didn't go ahead with the work, and anything happened in the next 10 years.

I will post follow-up when the work is done, hopefully this week.
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hoob wrote: Knowing that they are problems in the DWV design, the cast iron stack is in a grey area of its anticipated lifespan even though problem free now, and that now is the prime opportunity to revisit it and preemptively correct it, I would kick myself if I didn't go ahead with the work, and anything happened in the next 10 years.

I will post follow-up when the work is done, hopefully this week.
Yes you would be foolish if you didn't replace the balance of the cast now that you have the walll open. While the lower portion of the cast has endured caustic chemicals over the years (Draino, bleach, etc.) the upper portion hasn't. However, the fumes still affected the cast, and the potential for problems is still there. You could leave the portion up through the roof, since monkeying with shingles in January is not ideal,but plan on doing so in Spring. If the cut off is made in the attic space rather than in an enclosed wall, it will be easier.
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MrFrugal1 wrote: You could leave the portion up through the roof, since monkeying with shingles in January is not ideal,but plan on doing so in Spring. If the cut off is made in the attic space rather than in an enclosed wall, it will be easier.
Agreed.. The quotes I received were to cut off in the very small attic space at the tail end of a very shallow roof. Not shown in the pictures but the bathroom ceiling is currently open exposing that area too.

But for now the exit vent will be left as is, since it's not leaking or causing any problems. When next I have work done on the roof I will replace the last bit. Currently the vent only sticks out 4" from the roof so it's also not to code, but fixing that is merely on the "todo" and certainly no rush.
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Here are the "after" pictures. THe plumbers were able to finish everything up in less than a day.

View from kitchen up to bathroom, showing all the drain and venting:
[IMG]http://hoob.smugmug.com/Home-Living/Pic ... 3799-M.jpg[/IMG]

View from basement with new clean-out, venting, and rough ins for kitchen sink and vent for bathroom sink:
Top of stack is still cast iron, cut off halfway up bathroom wall but now solidly anchored:
[IMG]http://hoob.smugmug.com/Home-Living/Pic ... 3797-M.jpg[/IMG][IMG]http://hoob.smugmug.com/Home-Living/Pic ... 3794-M.jpg[/IMG]
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