Real Estate

CMHC spending a quarter-million on federal home equity tax research

  • Last Updated:
  • Jul 23rd, 2020 10:14 pm
60 replies
Deal Addict
Jan 12, 2017
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This already exists in the form of property taxes and capital gains tax, only one of which has some link to owner/rental 'equity' - exemption of primary residences (or the tax on investment properties). Expanding on this is pretty simple and certainly does not require that much effort or funding to assess. The feds most likely already employ a team that is responsible for this type of work.

At the end of the day, tax and property just gets passed onto renters and the whole premise of a tax-based approach to redistribute wealth between owners and renters can't be based on home equity. This study is doomed to fail or come up with destructive policy.
FrancisBacon wrote: https://torontosun.com/news/national/cm ... x-research


Three guesses on which "solutions" will be identified.

Lowering construction costs?
Increased land use allowance?
Lowering zoning restrictions?
Banned
Jul 4, 2020
32 posts
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Chickennbeans wrote: At the end of the day, tax and property just gets passed onto renters and the whole premise of a tax-based approach to redistribute wealth between owners and renters can't be based on home equity. This study is doomed to fail or come up with destructive policy.
There's only so much you can pass on to renters. Eventually nobody can afford your rent. Then you lose money staying vacant or get squeezed and lower the rent and eat some of the costs yourself.

The whole point of this is to cool the housing market by making it less attractive for investing. It would work.

Shutting off the taps of immigration would be a much better way to cool the housing market, but I guess the government would not consider that because it goes against the agenda.
Deal Addict
Sep 19, 2009
2135 posts
916 upvotes
Toronto
Chickennbeans wrote: This already exists in the form of property taxes and capital gains tax, only one of which has some link to owner/rental 'equity' - exemption of primary residences (or the tax on investment properties). Expanding on this is pretty simple and certainly does not require that much effort or funding to assess. The feds most likely already employ a team that is responsible for this type of work.

At the end of the day, tax and property just gets passed onto renters and the whole premise of a tax-based approach to redistribute wealth between owners and renters can't be based on home equity. This study is doomed to fail or come up with destructive policy.
... and you believe that CMHC was not aware of that Smiling Face With Open Mouth
Last edited by andrew4321 on Jul 19th, 2020 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nov 5, 2018
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kk33tm wrote: Shutting off the taps of immigration would be a much better way to cool the housing market, but I guess the government would not consider that because it goes against the agenda.
The fact that you think shutting off immigration proves you are completely clueless. How do you expect to get your medicare, social services, etc. without new people coming into the system. These immigrants are the driver to our economy.

Let me guess, you support Donald Trump too?
Called the bottom.
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Feb 29, 2008
18676 posts
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Tarrana & The Ri…
kk33tm wrote: There's only so much you can pass on to renters. Eventually nobody can afford your rent. Then you lose money staying vacant or get squeezed and lower the rent and eat some of the costs yourself.

The whole point of this is to cool the housing market by making it less attractive for investing. It would work.

Shutting off the taps of immigration would be a much better way to cool the housing market, but I guess the government would not consider that because it goes against the agenda.
Your viewpoint is so shallow and narrow-minded I don't know where to begin. Typical of the renters who demanded rent controls, then were crying that rents skyrocketed and unafordable. Even with a once in a lifetime pandemic they're still crying. Look beyond your own nose and you'll see that we actually need immigration and it has nothing to do with housing.
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Nov 5, 2018
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kk33tm wrote: There's only so much you can pass on to renters. Eventually nobody can afford your rent. Then you lose money staying vacant or get squeezed and lower the rent and eat some of the costs yourself.

The whole point of this is to cool the housing market by making it less attractive for investing. It would work.

Shutting off the taps of immigration would be a much better way to cool the housing market, but I guess the government would not consider that because it goes against the agenda.
And by the way, I’m from a family of immigrants and my wife is an immigrant. And I will support every immigrant who wants to come here! And more coming! Get used to us, kiddo!
Called the bottom.
Deal Addict
Jan 12, 2017
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You give public sector staff too much credit.

Whether it's truly a lack of competence, not caring enough to think, or a lack of ability to control themselves, the way many people have behaved related to COVID indicates that a significant part of our population cannot be relied upon to have basic common sense. Many of the same people work for our public services. Perhaps more than the proportion in the population due to the protective nature of unions that can discourage the talented while accumulating the less capable.
andrew4321 wrote: ... and you believe that CMHC was not aware of that Smiling Face With Open Mouth
Last edited by Chickennbeans on Jul 19th, 2020 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Deal Addict
Jan 12, 2017
1622 posts
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You're right. Then availability of rental stock will decrease as investors (both individuals and businesses) will leave the rental market. The past few decades have been prime for residential development.

Take a look at Markham - It's a giant bedroom 'community'. Developers have built 99.9999% residential, and little to no offices, retail or employment of any kind. That's because it's the most profitable use of the land. They don't care that no jobs in Markham or even immediately surrounding Markham support the prices of homes in Markham - commuting by design.
Another example is the wholesale conversion of local stores and entertainment uses in urban areas to condo's - take a look at the clubs that are left downtown along John & Peter, the impending redevelopment of the South side of King opposite TIFF. They're simply more profitable.

Rent ceilings and lower home prices will absolutely going to happen - in areas that, for lack of a better word, suck. Don't kid yourself, renters won't "win" long term under any scenario. The real question is, do they need to win? There is far more to a person's value and assets than home ownership.

The reality is that we're pre-committed to going off the cliff, and the only way to prevent that is to bring in more people to fill in the giant hole.
Immigration... specifically, increasing immigration fueling home ownership and paying tax base, is the only way Canada don't self destruct.
kk33tm wrote: There's only so much you can pass on to renters. Eventually nobody can afford your rent. Then you lose money staying vacant or get squeezed and lower the rent and eat some of the costs yourself.

The whole point of this is to cool the housing market by making it less attractive for investing. It would work.

Shutting off the taps of immigration would be a much better way to cool the housing market, but I guess the government would not consider that because it goes against the agenda.
Jr. Member
Aug 21, 2017
195 posts
132 upvotes
Chickennbeans wrote: You're right. Then availability of rental stock will decrease as investors (both individuals and businesses) will leave the rental market. The past few decades have been prime for residential development.
Except this is wrong. Individual rental investors will have to leave the market because their overhead is high, but purposefully-built rental property will thrive - it's a simple game of scales. This will also be easier for the government to manage (AirBnb, etc.) as it's much easier to manage several bigger companies than small individual investors. Rental property companies also hire more employees than individual investors, who have no contribution to the society except maybe to the realtors.
Jr. Member
Mar 23, 2015
138 posts
223 upvotes
Toronto, ON
Chickennbeans wrote: You give people too much credit.

Whether it's truly a lack of competence, not caring enough to think, or a lack of ability to control themselves, the way many people have behaved related to COVID indicates that a significant part of our population cannot be relied upon to have basic common sense. Many of the same people work for our public services. Perhaps more than the proportion in the population due to the protective nature of unions that can discourage the talented while accumulating the less capable.
What are you even talking about?
Jr. Member
Aug 21, 2017
195 posts
132 upvotes
The solution will always be more tax. With deficit hitting record high and strong expectation for interest rate raise in 2022, there's no way they can balance the budget with new tax. Property tax is easiest to implement and collect, and you've got the NDP + Liberal coalition there.
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May 9, 2017
1211 posts
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fiddlewin wrote: The solution will always be more tax. With deficit hitting record high and strong expectation for interest rate raise in 2022, there's no way they can balance the budget with new tax. Property tax is easiest to implement and collect, and you've got the NDP + Liberal coalition there.
Interest rates aren't going anywhere. Tiff from the BOC has said rates won't be going up in 2022.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... target-hit
Last edited by NotRobot on Jul 19th, 2020 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Banned
Jul 4, 2020
32 posts
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CondoMan98 wrote: The fact that you think shutting off immigration proves you are completely clueless. How do you expect to get your medicare, social services, etc. without new people coming into the system. These immigrants are the driver to our economy.
That is nonsense. Existing Canadians can take care of themselves. We do not need immigrants to provide us with social services or for any other reason. We are not lazy or incompetent. Even with an aging and shrinking population, we could use automation and technology to make our society more efficient.

The biggest thing to realize is that if we cut off mass immigration and made housing affordable for Canadians, we wouldn't have an aging and shrinking population to begin with as Canadians would be able to afford having children again. We could very easily have a self-sustainable population. We do not require mass immigration.

It appears that there is a political agenda to replace the traditional Canadian population with immigrants. This may enrich you in the short term, but I doubt you will fare so well in the long term when the social fabric of the country is completely different (which also means the values and politics will be completely different).
JayLove06 wrote: Your viewpoint is so shallow and narrow-minded I don't know where to begin. Typical of the renters who demanded rent controls, then were crying that rents skyrocketed and unafordable. Even with a once in a lifetime pandemic they're still crying. Look beyond your own nose and you'll see that we actually need immigration and it has nothing to do with housing.
My viewpoint is much deeper than yours. Look beyond your own nose and think about what kind of country your children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren are going to live in thanks to the mass immigration you are supporting. Will they even survive the possible political turmoil and social unrest that comes from mass immigration and population displacement?

I agree with rent controls and other dumb policy because I have no interest in prolonging things. Let's get it on with. Let's get to the point where people stop being completely selfish and worry about the bigger picture.

This pandemic is very interest, but surely hasn't changed anything with real estate other than a short term supply reduction and price increase.
Chickennbeans wrote: The reality is that we're pre-committed to going off the cliff, and the only way to prevent that is to bring in more people to fill in the giant hole.
Immigration... specifically, increasing immigration fueling home ownership and paying tax base, is the only way Canada don't self destruct.
More non-sense. Mass immigration is what is leading to our destruction (to the destruction of what Canada used to be, who used to live here, what values and systems we had, etc -- it will be turned into a radically different country).
Last edited by kk33tm on Jul 19th, 2020 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Deal Addict
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Nov 5, 2018
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kk33tm wrote: That is nonsense. Existing Canadians can take care of themselves. We do not need immigrants to provide us with social services or for any other reason. We are not lazy or incompetent. Even with an aging and shrinking population, we could use automation and technology to make our society more efficient.

The biggest thing to realize is that if we cut off mass immigration and made housing affordable for Canadians, we wouldn't have an aging and shrinking population to begin with as Canadians would be able to afford having children again. We could very easily have a self-sustainable population. We do not require mass immigration.

It appears that there is a political agenda to replace the traditional Canadian population with immigrants. This may enrich you in the short term, but I doubt you will fare so well in the long term when the social fabric of the country is completely different (which also means the values and politics will be completely different).


My viewpoint is much deeper than yours. Look beyond your own nose and think about what kind of country your children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren are going to live in thanks to the mass immigration you are supporting. Will they even survive the possible political turmoil and social unrest that comes from mass immigration and population displacement?

I agree with rent controls and other disastrous policy because I have no interest in prolonging things. Let's get it on with.

This pandemic is very interest, but surely hasn't changed anything with real estate other than a short term supply reduction and price increase.


More non-sense. Mass immigration is what is leading to our destruction (to the destruction of what Canada used to be, who used to live here, what values and systems we had, etc -- it will be turned into a radically different country).
I reported you and I hope you get banned for this. I am pretty certain you are a white supremacist.

I refuse to even respond to you anymore.
Called the bottom.
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Jul 4, 2020
32 posts
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CondoMan98 wrote: I reported you and I hope you get banned for this. I am pretty certain you are a white supremacist.

I refuse to even respond to you anymore.
Anyone who opposes mass immigration must be a white supremacist? More nonsense from you. I reported you back for your personal attack/insult. Just ignore me if you don't want to discuss things things (which are relevant to the Canadian housing market).
Last edited by kk33tm on Jul 19th, 2020 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Deal Addict
May 9, 2017
1211 posts
1301 upvotes
kk33tm wrote: That is nonsense. Existing Canadians can take care of themselves. We do not need immigrants to provide us with social services or for any other reason. We are not lazy or incompetent. Even with an aging and shrinking population, we could use automation and technology to make our society more efficient.

The biggest thing to realize is that if we cut off mass immigration and made housing affordable for Canadians, we wouldn't have an aging and shrinking population to begin with as Canadians would be able to afford having children again. We could very easily have a self-sustainable population. We do not require mass immigration.

It appears that there is a political agenda to replace the traditional Canadian population with immigrants. This may enrich you in the short term, but I doubt you will fare so well in the long term when the social fabric of the country is completely different (which also means the values and politics will be completely different).


My viewpoint is much deeper than yours. Look beyond your own nose and think about what kind of country your children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren are going to live in thanks to the mass immigration you are supporting. Will they even survive the possible political turmoil and social unrest that comes from mass immigration and population displacement?

I agree with rent controls and other disastrous policy because I have no interest in prolonging things. Let's get it on with.

This pandemic is very interest, but surely hasn't changed anything with real estate other than a short term supply reduction and price increase.


More non-sense. Mass immigration is what is leading to our destruction (to the destruction of what Canada used to be, who used to live here, what values and systems we had, etc -- it will be turned into a radically different country).
You are wrong. With no immigration Canada's population would shrink and the average age would increase increasing the burden (and taxes) on existing working Canadians,
This demographic problem is well understood and is not unique to Canada.
Deal Expert
Feb 29, 2008
18676 posts
16879 upvotes
Tarrana & The Ri…
kk33tm wrote: Anyone who opposes mass immigration must be a white supremacist? More nonsense from you. I reported you back for your personal attack/insult. Just ignore me if you don't want to discuss things things (which are relevant to the Canadian housing market).
There are certain tells but I'll let you hang yourself.
Banned
Jul 4, 2020
32 posts
35 upvotes
NotRobot wrote: You are wrong. With no immigration Canada's population would shrink and the average age would increase increasing the burden (and taxes) on existing working Canadians,
This demographic problem is well understood and is not unique to Canada.
The "demographic problem" would correct itself if we turned off mass immigration. The main reason Canadians are not having enough kids to sustain the population is because they can't afford to, due to housing being so expensive. Housing is kept expensive via mass immigration.

Note that human populations are not going to grow exponentially anymore, so that can't be the expectation.
Deal Addict
May 9, 2017
1211 posts
1301 upvotes
kk33tm wrote: The "demographic problem" would correct itself if we turned off mass immigration. The main reason Canadians are not having enough kids to sustain the population is because they can't afford to, due to housing being so expensive. Housing is kept expensive via mass immigration.

Note that human populations are not going to grow exponentially anymore, so that can't be the expectation.
Wrong again. The fertility rate has been below 2 since 1975 and fairly stable since 1985. It doesn't seem to me that housing cost is the main explanatory variable of the fertility rate.
Unless you are claiming housing has been expensive for 40 years.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/103 ... 1860-2020/

The well-known demographic problem I was speaking about is mostly about rising social security and health care costs.
Sorry, I have no bull/ bear agenda here, I am just looking at the data.

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