Health & Wellness

COVID-19 vaccines won't end the pandemic.

[OP]
Deal Addict
Nov 10, 2018
3758 posts
3846 upvotes

COVID-19 vaccines won't end the pandemic.

This took me completely by surprise. Please don't kill the messenger, but I hope this sort of news story helps inform the general public about what to expect in the coming years.

https://nationalpost.com/health/not-goi ... -they-seem
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
193 replies
Sr. Member
Jan 31, 2018
574 posts
571 upvotes
That newspaper article is 90% guesses and sensationalism.

The overwhelming probability is that an effective vaccine will end the pandemic. Look for meaningful details in medical journals, not the popular press where the writer often has little or no medical expertise but is good at slanting stories with edgy headlines.
Deal Guru
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Mar 28, 2006
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Thanks for the article. We didn't expect vaccine will end the pandemic, it just won't because the virus can easily transmitted to animals. Unless mutation took a miracle turn, COVID-19 will be an endemic. Vaccine is still our best bet to back to normal life.
angryaudifanatic wrote: This took me completely by surprise. Please don't kill the messenger, but I hope this sort of news story helps inform the general public about what to expect in the coming years.

https://nationalpost.com/health/not-goi ... -they-seem
Masks can reduce spread of COVID-19 by 83.3% and keep economy open, wear one!
*external links and short links are not allowed
[OP]
Deal Addict
Nov 10, 2018
3758 posts
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ElroyJetson wrote: That newspaper article is 90% guesses and sensationalism.

The overwhelming probability is that an effective vaccine will end the pandemic. Look for meaningful details in medical journals, not the popular press where the writer often has little or no medical expertise but is good at slanting stories with edgy headlines.
The most important line in the article is one that has not been debunked by any other source because it is fact.

The vaccine may be effective at up to 95% in 'stopping' folks from getting COVID-19 symptoms, but there is no data wrt whether or not the virus will be at a level that is still able to be transmitted by an infected host. This last part was not something that even the vaccine makers were aiming for and thus there is no data from it.

That is why this pandemic will never end based on the existing vaccines that are 'about' to come out.

Dr Fauci himself agrees.

https://www.foxnews.com/health/coronavi ... ures-fauci

As do other Doctors: https://metro.co.uk/2020/10/28/dr-hilar ... -13491800/

And then there's this (as an aside story not related to the present topic), plus Twitter, plus a bunch of other variables which means we'll never get to 80% immunity within the population which is required for us to go back to normal life.

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/manitoba-pa ... -1.5197688
Last edited by angryaudifanatic on Nov 21st, 2020 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
Deal Guru
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Mar 28, 2006
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There is a minor logic issue in your statement. What the article said is true but it doesn't imply the pandemic will never end. In fact, the coming vaccines will end the pandemic by 2022 is still the most likely outcome. Remember end the pandemic is not the same as eradicate the virus. The way it is spreading worldwide and infecting multiple species, I don't think there is any hope to eradicate the virus now.

You brought up a good point about people may choose not to take the vaccine. That is entirely possible but I think fear will help to push up the uptake like flu vaccine this year.
Masks can reduce spread of COVID-19 by 83.3% and keep economy open, wear one!
*external links and short links are not allowed
Deal Addict
Apr 1, 2015
1536 posts
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NOYB
I myself lay my expectation low: vaccination isn't the holy solution. It's a long way to go.

However, several of my friends are under HUGE stress unfortunately. Yes they live alone, which does not help. Confused Face I even sense their distress over the phone

I can see how they are looking forward to this and see it as life saving straw.
*Zoomer + VoIP.ms + Lucky Mobile + Public Mobile user* SPEND WISELY

Self banning from the PRC sub, after a member with civility was banned from it without reasonable cause since 11/09/2020
Deal Addict
Oct 3, 2013
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West
The vaccine won't end the pandemic because too many boneheads are going to refuse to get it.
Deal Addict
Sep 2, 2010
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Ontario
Phonophoresis wrote: The vaccine won't end the pandemic because too many boneheads are going to refuse to get it.
The boneheads are going to make it a little easier to get the vaccine for non-boneheads. After that, the boneheads can then be convinced.
Sr. Member
Jul 24, 2019
687 posts
838 upvotes
Canada
OP, as you know, we get a flu shot each year as the strains of influenza changes each year. Influenza has not ended. We have found a way to minimize death due to influenza by immunization. Novel corona virus morbidity and mortality decreased when vaccines are available.
As others have said, please do not get your vaccine advice from the National Post. Please refer to scholarly journals.
[OP]
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Nov 10, 2018
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This is, hands down the BEST article I have read on this subject. It may not be 'great' news, but it's thorough news reporting. Don't shoot the messenger please.

Please please read this everyone. I don't think there's any 'arguments' to be made against the content here, either.

https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2020/11/26/ ... rspective/
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
Deal Guru
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Mar 28, 2006
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Did you see anyone think the vaccine will end the pandemic soon in this thread? There are lots of unanswered questions and there is zero published phase 3 data for any vaccine candidates. Nobody should expect the pandemic will end anytime soon but at least we can say vaccine development has not disappoint so far...
angryaudifanatic wrote: This is, hands down the BEST article I have read on this subject. It may not be 'great' news, but it's thorough news reporting. Don't shoot the messenger please.

Please please read this everyone. I don't think there's any 'arguments' to be made against the content here, either.

https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2020/11/26/ ... rspective/
Masks can reduce spread of COVID-19 by 83.3% and keep economy open, wear one!
*external links and short links are not allowed
[OP]
Deal Addict
Nov 10, 2018
3758 posts
3846 upvotes
82 wrote: Did you see anyone think the vaccine will end the pandemic soon in this thread? There are lots of unanswered questions and there is zero published phase 3 data for any vaccine candidates. Nobody should expect the pandemic will end anytime soon but at least we can say vaccine development has not disappoint so far...
The media seems to reinforce this belief as is government leadership that somehow vaccines will bring back everything to pre-covid normality. Heck, I'm guilty of believing them from time to time.

Then again, Canadians, well...are becoming more and more unwilling to want to take this vaccine (reading b/w the lines). This is from an hour ago.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7488523/coro ... ory-ipsos/
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
Deal Expert
Jun 30, 2006
18584 posts
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Toronto
The vaccine is too rushed and I think people don't know the true side effects. The same people not wearing masks and thinking this is a hoax, also won't take the vaccine. The amount of people who don't even take the flu shot is boggling.
Banned
Oct 14, 2020
72 posts
131 upvotes
angryaudifanatic wrote: The media seems to reinforce this belief as is government leadership that somehow vaccines will bring back everything to pre-covid normality. Heck, I'm guilty of believing them from time to time.

Then again, Canadians, well...are becoming more and more unwilling to want to take this vaccine (reading b/w the lines). This is from an hour ago.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7488523/coro ... ory-ipsos/
I've never taken a flu shot.
And I likely won't take the Covid 'vaccine' either.
Not because I don't believe in science, but because I don't believe in CEO's spewing shit to drive their stock higher and I don't trust the politicians and their allegiances.

Think about how all these "smart people" handled Covid from the onset.
Now think that these same people are handling mass vaccinations.... No thanks.
[OP]
Deal Addict
Nov 10, 2018
3758 posts
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joneslocker wrote: I've never taken a flu shot.
And I likely won't take the Covid 'vaccine' either.
Not because I don't believe in science, but because I don't believe in CEO's spewing shit to drive their stock higher and I don't trust the politicians and their allegiances.

Think about how all these "smart people" handled Covid from the onset.
Now think that these same people are handling mass vaccinations.... No thanks.
This is an interesting one, actually. I'm a senior, been wearing N95 masks and just today someone commented about me wearing gloves when I was at the grocery store today. I try and take all of the precautions that I can. Yes, I Lysol everything, go do the minimum amount of shopping around, and when I go, I go in the dark (at night) when there's less people around.

Am I running to the front of the line to get this vaccine? No. Am I an anti-vaxxer? Hell no, and have been immunized with everything I should be. Do I have an OK understanding of Science? I think so as one of my degrees is in Science. The reality is that Moderna's first vaccine that is about to be successful is the one against COVID-19, and that and Pfizer's vaccine's are both mRNA based. These are the first of its kind to fight against viruses. Am I saying that I don't believe they work? Of course not - the results are what the results are. However, 10 months or so from beginning to end seems suspect and there are a few things that cannot be disputed.

1) No one knows how long these vaccines will provide immunity for
2) No one knows if these vaccines will prevent asymptomatic spread
3) The side effects of these vaccines (~5-10%) are more significant than that of your regular flu shot (no, these aren't fatal at all, of course, just more painful, more swelling and/or more fatigue - but these only last 24-48 hours).
4) No one knows what the long term side effects are.

^is a lot of risk for the average Joe/Jane to swallow to run to the front of the line.

So I won't beat around the bush. I'm somewhat educated, am in the high risk category, and I will not be anywhere near the front of the line. I know people will throw rocks at me and mock me, but I'll continue practicing social distancing, mask wearing, and the like. I live alone, so it's not like I need this vaccine anyway.
kimmelite wrote: OP, as you know, we get a flu shot each year as the strains of influenza changes each year. Influenza has not ended. We have found a way to minimize death due to influenza by immunization. Novel corona virus morbidity and mortality decreased when vaccines are available.
As others have said, please do not get your vaccine advice from the National Post. Please refer to scholarly journals.
To be fair, influenza mutates much faster than COVID-19 does, and while there have been 20 or so strains identified none are more or less deadly. In fact, the feared Cluster 5 variant is apparently more susceptible to the vaccine.

Like everything in life, this is a cost-benefit thing. Did you see the protests in London (UK), Paris, and Toronto/London (Ontario) today? Couple that, with the rushed vaccine, with the media who will blow every single 'bad' reaction to the vaccine to make a $, with Twitter, conspiracy theories and the like, society will never get to herd immunity anyway. So what's the point for the average Joe/Jane?

I mean, everyone should read this and consider the cost of NOT getting a vaccine: https://globalnews.ca/news/7479200/coro ... -research/

All this to state, this is a very personal decision and to each their own, IMHO.
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
Sr. Member
User avatar
Sep 28, 2017
663 posts
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joneslocker wrote: I've never taken a flu shot.
And I likely won't take the Covid 'vaccine' either.
Not because I don't believe in science, but because I don't believe in CEO's spewing shit to drive their stock higher and I don't trust the politicians and their allegiances.

Think about how all these "smart people" handled Covid from the onset.
Now think that these same people are handling mass vaccinations.... No thanks.
THIS !! the ones thinking your government has YOUR best interests and care about you are the ones who are boneheads and sheep. they have an agenda and a plan and if it means removing you so they can complete this plan then guess what happens to you. it scares me the most that you calling others boneheads are actually the ones giving into what the government wants and basically lead the way to us losing our rights and freedoms. you need to question things before handing over your trust... or you are the ones to blame for the outcome of what's about to happen.

i also will NOT take this vaccine because i already know this isn't a proven method. seems very odd/strange that when talk of creating a vaccine it was about 5 years till it would be given out... they have to do studies and trials, testing on a few that have this so called covid bullshit. but hmmm strange that as soon as bumbling idiot elect biden was said to have won the election that magically a vaccine is pretty much ready to go in the 1st quarter of 2021 ??? come on people, that's a little fishy if you ask me, but of course you all who believe in trudeau the imbecile, douce ford and that idiot stick medical lady think this sounds perfectly fine.


you people will be the ones on deaths door after having been injected with that crap, having side affects and other health issues..... i refuse to take it, and won't be forced or tricked into taking it. wake up people !!!! use your heads and think for once and stop taking the words of politicians who lie on a daily basis.
no matter where you go, there you are.
Banned
Oct 14, 2020
72 posts
131 upvotes
angryaudifanatic wrote: This is an interesting one, actually. I'm a senior, been wearing N95 masks and just today someone commented about me wearing gloves when I was at the grocery store today. I try and take all of the precautions that I can. Yes, I Lysol everything, go do the minimum amount of shopping around, and when I go, I go in the dark (at night) when there's less people around.

Am I running to the front of the line to get this vaccine? No. Am I an anti-vaxxer? Hell no, and have been immunized with everything I should be. Do I have an OK understanding of Science? I think so as one of my degrees is in Science. The reality is that Moderna's first vaccine that is about to be successful is the one against COVID-19, and that and Pfizer's vaccine's are both mRNA based. These are the first of its kind to fight against viruses. Am I saying that I don't believe they work? Of course not - the results are what the results are. However, 10 months or so from beginning to end seems suspect and there are a few things that cannot be disputed.

1) No one knows how long these vaccines will provide immunity for
2) No one knows if these vaccines will prevent asymptomatic spread
3) The side effects of these vaccines (~5-10%) are more significant than that of your regular flu shot (no, these aren't fatal at all, of course, just more painful, more swelling and/or more fatigue - but these only last 24-48 hours).
4) No one knows what the long term side effects are.

^is a lot of risk for the average Joe/Jane to swallow to run to the front of the line.

So I won't beat around the bush. I'm somewhat educated, am in the high risk category, and I will not be anywhere near the front of the line. I know people will throw rocks at me and mock me, but I'll continue practicing social distancing, mask wearing, and the like. I live alone, so it's not like I need this vaccine anyway.



To be fair, influenza mutates much faster than COVID-19 does, and while there have been 20 or so strains identified none are more or less deadly. In fact, the feared Cluster 5 variant is apparently more susceptible to the vaccine.

Like everything in life, this is a cost-benefit thing. Did you see the protests in London (UK), Paris, and Toronto/London (Ontario) today? Couple that, with the rushed vaccine, with the media who will blow every single 'bad' reaction to the vaccine to make a $, with Twitter, conspiracy theories and the like, society will never get to herd immunity anyway. So what's the point for the average Joe/Jane?

I mean, everyone should read this and consider the cost of NOT getting a vaccine: https://globalnews.ca/news/7479200/coro ... -research/

All this to state, this is a very personal decision and to each their own, IMHO.
Yep, this is a first of it's kind vaccine but the science behind it - the understanding of it - has been around for ages. It's just now it's more feasible for it to be done..

When you really dig down and study what they've done, it's nothing short of a miracle, and this will be the catalyst the medical industry needs to start making some pretty potent concoctions of medicine in the future.
But... it's new. We don't know what the side effects could be,

For the uninitiated, that don't know what an mRNA vaccine is, the scientists have essentially cut a piece of the virus's RNA out, and will inject you with it. The RNA is basically a blueprint to build a protein molecule.. So, after it goes into a cell, your cells take that blueprint and build the protein. After that, it's released from the cell, and the idea here is that your immune system knows what it's looking for. That way when Covid gets into your body, your body has some idea what it is and can fight it a lot quicker.
After the RNA is "transcribed" into a protein, it's basically dead and broken down to it's amino acids.
The scientists can put "caps" at the end of the RNA strand to stop it from being read again by the body, and do some other interesting stuff with it.

The real questions though about the safety and potential long term side effects, come from how much do scientists really know about playing around with RNA in real humans?
They are all going to tout it's super safe, cause, they know the science behind it.. and in theory, it should be perfectly safe..
But, what if they are wrong?

i dont know what a long term side effect could materialize as.... but, cancer would be my biggest concern - if there was one.
[OP]
Deal Addict
Nov 10, 2018
3758 posts
3846 upvotes
joneslocker wrote: Yep, this is a first of it's kind vaccine but the science behind it - the understanding of it - has been around for ages. It's just now it's more feasible for it to be done..

When you really dig down and study what they've done, it's nothing short of a miracle, and this will be the catalyst the medical industry needs to start making some pretty potent concoctions of medicine in the future.
But... it's new. We don't know what the side effects could be,

For the uninitiated, that don't know what an mRNA vaccine is, the scientists have essentially cut a piece of the virus's RNA out, and will inject you with it. The RNA is basically a blueprint to build a protein molecule.. So, after it goes into a cell, your cells take that blueprint and build the protein. After that, it's released from the cell, and the idea here is that your immune system knows what it's looking for. That way when Covid gets into your body, your body has some idea what it is and can fight it a lot quicker.
After the RNA is "transcribed" into a protein, it's basically dead and broken down to it's amino acids.
The scientists can put "caps" at the end of the RNA strand to stop it from being read again by the body, and do some other interesting stuff with it.

The real questions though about the safety and potential long term side effects, come from how much do scientists really know about playing around with RNA in real humans?
They are all going to tout it's super safe, cause, they know the science behind it.. and in theory, it should be perfectly safe..
But, what if they are wrong?

i dont know what a long term side effect could materialize as.... but, cancer would be my biggest concern - if there was one.
My sincere thanks for the quick summary and my own science knowledge is hazy at best as I have focused my career on law over many decades.

Im wondering then why it took COVID-19 to cause the scientific community to create these first types of mRNA vaccines? Like you mentioned the know how of this has been around a while. Moderna took two days to create this vaccine and this is their first vaccine against a virus. (everyone skeptical of my claim here can Google it)

Any ideas?
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
Banned
Oct 14, 2020
72 posts
131 upvotes
angryaudifanatic wrote: My sincere thanks for the quick summary and my own science knowledge is hazy at best as I have focused my career on law over many decades.

Im wondering then why it took COVID-19 to cause the scientific community to create these first types of mRNA vaccines? Like you mentioned the know how of this has been around a while. Moderna took two days to create this vaccine and this is their first vaccine against a virus. (everyone skeptical of my claim here can Google it)

Any ideas?
probably costs and scale... im sure with all the government backing this was the chance to take the risk with it.

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