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[DECEMBER 2018 UPDATE] Ask me anything about home electrical requirements, electrical code, wiring, devices

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Deal Addict
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Jun 21, 2003
4309 posts
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Stoney Creek, ON
timofeewho wrote: I see! I'll have to measure it then, so you're saying that the potential steam from the kettle, ricecooker, or cooking isn't a potential problem and wouldn't warrant GFCI even if they're more than 1.5m away from the sink?

There are 3 outlets in my kitchen area and only 1 is GFCI, the one on my island where the sink is hehe
No there is no concern from the appliances themselves. The concern is whether the appliance can be knocked in to a sink full of water. Kitchen appliance cords won’t exceed 1.5m so as long as they can’t be plugged in within 1.5m of the sink there’s no concern.
Member
Nov 13, 2019
200 posts
50 upvotes
Toronto
ChicoQuente wrote: No there is no concern from the appliances themselves. The concern is whether the appliance can be knocked in to a sink full of water. Kitchen appliance cords won’t exceed 1.5m so as long as they can’t be plugged in within 1.5m of the sink there’s no concern.
Challenge accepted! Kidding lol

1 more thing, aside from the added cost, is there a downside to GFCIing every outlet? Just curious
Deal Addict
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Jun 21, 2003
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Stoney Creek, ON
timofeewho wrote: Challenge accepted! Kidding lol

1 more thing, aside from the added cost, is there a downside to GFCIing every outlet? Just curious
Nope, just cost. But it could also be stated that there’s no up side to it either.

Also your kitchen counter outlets should be in pairs of 2 per circuit. GFCI receptacles have the ability to protect the next downstream receptacle if you connect the wire to the next receptacle to the “LOAD” side of the GFCI. If you really wanted to GFCI all of them you only need half as many GFCI receptacles as your total number of counter receptacles.
Member
Nov 13, 2019
200 posts
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Toronto
ChicoQuente wrote: Nope, just cost. But it could also be stated that there’s no up side to it either.

Also your kitchen counter outlets should be in pairs of 2 per circuit. GFCI receptacles have the ability to protect the next downstream receptacle if you connect the wire to the next receptacle to the “LOAD” side of the GFCI. If you really wanted to GFCI all of them you only need half as many GFCI receptacles as your total number of counter receptacles.
I see! Unfortunately for whatever reason, they're on 2 individual breakersSlightly Frowning Face
Deal Addict
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Jun 21, 2003
4309 posts
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Stoney Creek, ON
timofeewho wrote: I see! Unfortunately for whatever reason, they're on 2 individual breakersSlightly Frowning Face
If you have 3 outlets as stated 2 on the counter, 1 on the island you SHOULD have 2 breakers. It’s a max of 2 counter receptacles per circuit. 2 receptacles on 1 breaker and 1 on the other. IF you wanted to GFCI everything you only need 1 more GFCI receptacle to accomplish that.
Member
Nov 13, 2019
200 posts
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Toronto
ChicoQuente wrote: If you have 3 outlets as stated 2 on the counter, 1 on the island you SHOULD have 2 breakers. It’s a max of 2 counter receptacles per circuit. 2 receptacles on 1 breaker and 1 on the other. IF you wanted to GFCI everything you only need 1 more GFCI receptacle to accomplish that.
Ah I see, I just double checked, and the 3 outlets are on 3 separate breakers in the breaker box. I guess the electrician derped. The more I look into improving the house the more weird decisions I find (unless there's just a lot of fear mongering onlineSmiling Face With Open Mouth And Tightly-closed Eyes)

I also checked the distance of the 2 outlets in question and they're 1.75-2m away from the edge of the sink, so if it ain't broke I won't fix it hehe

Thanks!
Jr. Member
Nov 10, 2016
116 posts
122 upvotes
Montreal, Qc.
Hello everyone,

I already posted some questions regarding my panel and now I have an idea what to expect about it, but still have some questions:

1. I wanted to replace my neutral bar, I have 2 - 21 terminal slot bars and I wanted to buy bigger ones to accommodate all the neutral and ground cables in my panel, so I need 2 - 36 terminal neutral bars but its kinda difficult to find them, where can I get those? I mean my panel is for 36 circuits so it should accommodate 72 slots between neutrals and grounds right?

2. I was shopping around prices to replace my main panel by a certified electrician and I got quoted by one that I found on kijiji like $1000, everything included for a 200 amp main panel, is this a good price? is it good to trust a kijiji electrician? or is it better to go with the big names that cost a lot more.

3. The reason that I wanted to get bigger neutral bars is cause I need more spaces for my grounds because (some are overlapping) I noticed that in my main panel ( I didn't explain it properly in my past post and I was lacking information), my neutral bars are isolated from the box and the ground wire is bonded in this bars, but then my grounds that come all over the house are connected to the ground bar that is bolted to the box, as the explanation I received there is no issue here as the box is grounded, what I saw is that my grounds are not in the same ground as the ground wire that connects to the water pipe (does this makes sense?), but yea ground is ground, what is weird is I noticed that the wall where the main panel is installed, it is like separated from the main wall by a piece of wood, so I am thinking that wall is not really connected to anything or maybe the side of the house and all my grounds connected to the ground bar that is bolted to the panel are not properly grounded, is this a safety issue?, is this correct? is it better the idea of moving the grounds to my neutral bar if I can find a 36 slot neutral bar?

I am attaching some pictures of the mess of my panel, and notice the piece of wood separating that part of the wall, it goes all along that wall. Thanks in advance for the help.
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Deal Addict
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Jun 21, 2003
4309 posts
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Stoney Creek, ON
capogalo wrote: Hello everyone,

I already posted some questions regarding my panel and now I have an idea what to expect about it, but still have some questions:

1. I wanted to replace my neutral bar, I have 2 - 21 terminal slot bars and I wanted to buy bigger ones to accommodate all the neutral and ground cables in my panel, so I need 2 - 36 terminal neutral bars but its kinda difficult to find them, where can I get those? I mean my panel is for 36 circuits so it should accommodate 72 slots between neutrals and grounds right?

2. I was shopping around prices to replace my main panel by a certified electrician and I got quoted by one that I found on kijiji like $1000, everything included for a 200 amp main panel, is this a good price? is it good to trust a kijiji electrician? or is it better to go with the big names that cost a lot more.

3. The reason that I wanted to get bigger neutral bars is cause I need more spaces for my grounds because (some are overlapping) I noticed that in my main panel ( I didn't explain it properly in my past post and I was lacking information), my neutral bars are isolated from the box and the ground wire is bonded in this bars, but then my grounds that come all over the house are connected to the ground bar that is bolted to the box, as the explanation I received there is no issue here as the box is grounded, what I saw is that my grounds are not in the same ground as the ground wire that connects to the water pipe (does this makes sense?), but yea ground is ground, what is weird is I noticed that the wall where the main panel is installed, it is like separated from the main wall by a piece of wood, so I am thinking that wall is not really connected to anything or maybe the side of the house and all my grounds connected to the ground bar that is bolted to the panel are not properly grounded, is this a safety issue?, is this correct? is it better the idea of moving the grounds to my neutral bar if I can find a 36 slot neutral bar?

I am attaching some pictures of the mess of my panel, and notice the piece of wood separating that part of the wall, it goes all along that wall. Thanks in advance for the help.
I don’t know the rules for permits and inspection nor pricing for Quebec. I would say $1000 is pretty cheap. If it was Ontario I would say do not hire that person unless they provide written contract of a permit being pulled with ESA (legally required) and require proof of ECRA number.

You’re way overthinking your ground situation. Your installation is exactly as it should be. Mounting your panel to the wall has absolutely NOTHING to do with grounding. Your wall does NOT provide ground. Ground is attained by the copper wire connected to your water pipe and ground lug of the panel. As I said in your previous post the ground comes in and goes to your ground bar. The other bars achieve ground through the METAL panel and screws. Connecting your grounds to your neutral bus is wrong and not to code. Your neutral bus is isolated from the panel itself but then the jumper from ground bus to neutral bus provides your grounded neutral. It is done this way because not all applications require the neutral bus to be grounded. Again as I mentioned when you posted before there is nothing wrong with your installation and you are overthinking it. A ground bus should be quite easy to purchase from an electrical supplier for adding additional ground points. You need to drill and tap new holes in the back of your panel for mounting a ground bus as self drill/self tap screws are not permitted.
Jr. Member
Nov 10, 2016
116 posts
122 upvotes
Montreal, Qc.
ChicoQuente wrote: I don’t know the rules for permits and inspection nor pricing for Quebec. I would say $1000 is pretty cheap. If it was Ontario I would say do not hire that person unless they provide written contract of a permit being pulled with ESA (legally required) and require proof of ECRA number.

You’re way overthinking your ground situation. Your installation is exactly as it should be. Mounting your panel to the wall has absolutely NOTHING to do with grounding. Your wall does NOT provide ground. Ground is attained by the copper wire connected to your water pipe and ground lug of the panel. As I said in your previous post the ground comes in and goes to your ground bar. The other bars achieve ground through the METAL panel and screws. Connecting your grounds to your neutral bus is wrong and not to code. Your neutral bus is isolated from the panel itself but then the jumper from ground bus to neutral bus provides your grounded neutral. It is done this way because not all applications require the neutral bus to be grounded. Again as I mentioned when you posted before there is nothing wrong with your installation and you are overthinking it. A ground bus should be quite easy to purchase from an electrical supplier for adding additional ground points. You need to drill and tap new holes in the back of your panel for mounting a ground bus as self drill/self tap screws are not permitted.
Yeah, like you said I may be overthinking it, I doubted cause I saw the wooden part of the wall, then I thought that the box may not be properly grounded as it may be not connected to something, I will do that buy some ground bars (yes I can find that easily) and add them to the box, regarding the electrician, well they have their numbers and credentials, but you never know if they are real, need to check that up, thanks a lot for the reply !!
Deal Addict
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Jun 21, 2003
4309 posts
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Stoney Creek, ON
capogalo wrote: Yeah, like you said I may be overthinking it, I doubted cause I saw the wooden part of the wall, then I thought that the box may not be properly grounded as it may be not connected to something, I will do that buy some ground bars (yes I can find that easily) and add them to the box, regarding the electrician, well they have their numbers and credentials, but you never know if they are real, need to check that up, thanks a lot for the reply !!
You’re welcome. I wish I could give you more assistance with picking someone but I’m not familiar with the rules in Quebec. In Ontario the electrician MUST have have an ECRA# so you know they can legally perform the installation, and they MUST pull a permit for the job with ESA. They can’t pull the permit without the ECRA#, and not all electricians (in fact most don’t) have an ECRA#. I’m a licensed electrician for example, but could not perform this job directly for you off Kijiji. For me to do it, as I do not have my contractors license (ECRA#) you would have to hire the company I work for. In Ontario a lot of people foolishly hire Kijiji electricians (or worse HANDYMEN) for their electrical work to save a bunch of money but the reason it’s so much cheaper is those guys aren’t pulling permits/inspections. It’s a really bad idea to go that route around here.
Temp. Banned
Apr 29, 2010
569 posts
932 upvotes
GTA
Hi Guys,

We plan to replace our gas cooktop with an induction cooktop.

We already have the 240V appliance socket in the cabinet under the cooktop.

However, the new cooktop requires hardwiring. I dont really want to rip apart my socket and hardwire it.

Is it possible to do a conversion on the wires of my new stove? Basically just convert it into a plug, instead of 3 seperate wires (or however many it is)
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Jun 21, 2003
4309 posts
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Stoney Creek, ON
lolbeast wrote: Hi Guys,

We plan to replace our gas cooktop with an induction cooktop.

We already have the 240V appliance socket in the cabinet under the cooktop.

However, the new cooktop requires hardwiring. I dont really want to rip apart my socket and hardwire it.

Is it possible to do a conversion on the wires of my new stove? Basically just convert it into a plug, instead of 3 seperate wires (or however many it is)
Have you verified the breaker size of the existing receptacle matches the required breaker size for your new cooktop?

Why do you want to go about adding a cord end to the cooktop as opposed to pulling apart the receptacle? It is the same amount of work to do either job but adding the cord end is probably more expensive. You simply need a blank cover with centre knockout for your existing 4-11/16” box and a connector (which may even come with the cooktop).

You can go the route of purchasing a cord end to install on the cooktop but it will cost more and may or may not be okay with your warranty on the appliance.
Temp. Banned
Apr 29, 2010
569 posts
932 upvotes
GTA
ChicoQuente wrote: Have you verified the breaker size of the existing receptacle matches the required breaker size for your new cooktop?

Why do you want to go about adding a cord end to the cooktop as opposed to pulling apart the receptacle? It is the same amount of work to do either job but adding the cord end is probably more expensive. You simply need a blank cover with centre knockout for your existing 4-11/16” box and a connector (which may even come with the cooktop).

You can go the route of purchasing a cord end to install on the cooktop but it will cost more and may or may not be okay with your warranty on the appliance.

Thanks for the quick reply. I figured it would be easier for me to work on the unplugged cooktop instead of taking apart the receptable under the counter

I’m okay to pay a bit more to get a cord end. Do you strongly advise against this?
Deal Addict
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Jun 21, 2003
4309 posts
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Stoney Creek, ON
lolbeast wrote: Thanks for the quick reply. I figured it would be easier for me to work on the unplugged cooktop instead of taking apart the receptable under the counter

I’m okay to pay a bit more to get a cord end. Do you strongly advise against this?
Personally I wouldn’t do it as I’m not one to modify an appliance. As an electrician I tend to follow the recommended install which in your case is hard wired. As mentioned you can find a cord end to install but it’s not the route I would personally go. I don’t see any advantage to that install.
Deal Guru
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Dec 11, 2004
10103 posts
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Montreal, QC
I too just installed an induction cooktop, they may not be made to have it's whip replaced with a plug (eg no accessible screw terminal and having to take apart the cooktop completly to get to it)

I couldn't find a square plate with a 1" K/O in retail stores, ended up drilling it with a step drill bit I had.
Used an angled BX 1" connector and a set of 4 blue wirenuts
Deal Addict
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Dec 10, 2008
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What's the code for protecting ethernet outside? PVC conduit? Smurf cable?
Let's hug it out
Deal Fanatic
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Oct 19, 2008
6610 posts
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GTA
RCGA wrote: What's the code for protecting ethernet outside? PVC conduit? Smurf cable?
Ethernet cable doesn't need to be protected, just use type rated for outdoors. There is cable rated for burial also.
Newbie
Oct 13, 2011
9 posts
Halifax
How does one measure the "living area" in rule 8-110? Can we go room by room and measure inside dimensions and add them up? Or do we need to measure the exterior of a dwelling and include closets and non-usable spaces?

Thanks!
Penalty Box
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Oct 13, 2008
4729 posts
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I'm trying to change out this switch to a wifi switch that has 4 wires.


The photo has two to the switch. Both black... WTF???

IMG_20201222_101744.jpg
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Deal Addict
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Jun 21, 2003
4309 posts
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Stoney Creek, ON
jdmfishingonly wrote: I'm trying to change out this switch to a wifi switch that has 4 wires.


The photo has two to the switch. Both black... WTF???


IMG_20201222_101744.jpg
If you’re confused by that you probably shouldn’t be changing the switch yourself. A very very large majority of switches in your home will only have black wires on it. That’s just a basic single pole switch and very easy to change.

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