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[OP]
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Jun 4, 2015
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Last edited by topcheese on May 14th, 2021 10:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
26 replies
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Dec 19, 2009
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Don't like the price ... install your gas range after closing and do whatever you want.
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Oct 20, 2011
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topcheese wrote:
I am building a home.
Sorry, but I'm somewhat confused,

1. If in fact you are building a home, then you should have total control over what subs you contract to do the work, therefore you have the ability to get other quotes.

2. If you are having a home built for you, then that changes things, in that you have the option to choose what a contractor is charging you/haggle if possible, (not likely) , or do it after the house is built.
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Jan 21, 2011
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Learnt something new today. If they are charging that much, find out what’s included and how they are doing it.
Last edited by lamin on May 23rd, 2021 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Oct 20, 2011
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If the home has a HRV system, which if air tight, it probably does, see if that can be incorporated to act as a make up air for the exhaust hood. Again, this depends on whether, you're building or having it built, in other words, how much control you have.

Good luck as I can't add anymore value to this thread.
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The reason its expensive is because everything is done for you when you move in, you're paying for convenience. Like you said, you might damage the tile/cabinets, fitment might be wrong, among other issues.
I'm not sure where the kitchen/vent is in the house but if they have to run a 10" pipe from the middle of the house to the exterior that certainly isn't pennies.
.
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Dec 27, 2007
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topcheese wrote: I’ll keep a long story short.

I am building a home.
When I read this, I was like damn your lucky. I never had enough money on hand to build a home from scratch to how I want it (bank wouldn't allow me).

Then I read your paying someone to do it, so your not actually building it. Cause if you were. Why not just install the larger ducting yourself? Plus if your doing it yourself, what fitment issues? Install the 10" (Are you sure you don't need just an 8"?) Try to limit the elbows and hard turns. And put cabinets on after, no fitment issues.
warming up the earth 1 gas fill-up at a time...
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I don't know if you guys are on crack or I am, he obviously meant builder as in minto/richcraft/claridge etc.. Yup you'll be paying out the nose for any changes you make because like you said it's a big job afterwards and you have to correct a lot of things to make it look nice.
Uh, yeah, I'd like to speak to a Mr. Tabooger, first name Ollie.
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topcheese wrote: I fully understand the builder needs to make money too. I’m just unsure of how 25’ of 10” tin costs $1,100 extra over 25’ of 6” tin.
The extra cost is coming from the makeup air part of the system, not the larger exhaust ducting.
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Imo, I would reevaluate your need for ventilation requiring a 10" vent. Your range may be rated for xx BTU hence the need for xx CFM, but that is based on you running every burner, full blast, without anything on them, an unlikely scenario.

Even if you go over 400CFM (600-750), I don't think MUA is really needed. Most (all?) gas appliances in the home nowadays are either direct vent or mechanically exhausted. I think you'll be fine with a less powerful hood, and if you ever need to run it full blast, just open the window a crack.

What I would consider however, is going for a less powerful but wider hood (42") to help with the fume/heat/smoke capture. Just my 2c.

And as far as I know, there is no building code requiring make-up air above 400CFM, might be recommended, but not required.
"I'm a bit upset. I've been grab by the back without any alert and lubrification"
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Dec 27, 2007
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Tabooger wrote: I don't know if you guys are on crack or I am, he obviously meant builder as in minto/richcraft/claridge etc.. Yup you'll be paying out the nose for any changes you make because like you said it's a big job afterwards and you have to correct a lot of things to make it look nice.
I think it's you, cause I can think of a dozen people who built their home from scratch and then hired sub trades for work they couldn't/didn't want to do.
TBH, I would only hire for the cement, framing, and then the gas line install+power to the panel (last 2 are requirements which I don't have) rest would be straight forward and easy.

I mean it does sound alot better saying "I built this" versus I paid someone to do it....
warming up the earth 1 gas fill-up at a time...
You only live once, get a v8
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Dec 10, 2008
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Where's the hood in relation to an exterior wall?

Running 10" ducting is no joke, especially when everything has already been planned for 6". You're paying extra for the PITA factor and risk if cabinets, walls, joists, etc. need to be modified.
Let's hug it out
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Dec 19, 2009
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Toukolou wrote: Imo, I would reevaluate your need for ventilation requiring a 10" vent. Your range may be rated for xx BTU hence the need for xx CFM, but that is based on you running every burner, full blast, without anything on them, an unlikely scenario.

Even if you go over 400CFM (600-750), I don't think MUA is really needed. Most (all?) gas appliances in the home nowadays are either direct vent or mechanically exhausted. I think you'll be fine with a less powerful hood, and if you ever need to run it full blast, just open the window a crack.

What I would consider however, is going for a less powerful but wider hood (42") to help with the fume/heat/smoke capture. Just my 2c.

And as far as I know, there is no building code requiring make-up air above 400CFM, might be recommended, but not required.
Codes are made on assumption that things are operated to the max to protect knowledgeable homeowners from themselves. You just can't say oh you'll probably never do it but it happens one day that you do do it.
Supplemental make up air for range hoods might not be in the building code but then they might be in the installation manual for the range/range hood and you would have to follow that because you have to install things as per manufactures instruction and that is in the building code.
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topcheese wrote: Building code in Ontario definitely requires MUA over 400 CFM. New homes are so air tight it causes a vacuum that can suck radon out of the ground, mess with other gas appliances etc

I do agree the standard XXX btu / 100 formula is a little overkill (I would need 1300 CFM), but I’m just going to 600. I figured it worth the little extra power, especially with an open floor plan so we don’t smoke the place out.

It’s also up for debate (just not in this thread. People are still too disturbed by the fact I said I’m building a home) whether or not gas ranges are “safe” in comparison to electric. So every little bit of ventilation I’ll take.

The model I chose requires 10” ducting.


Thanks for the input.


Hood is on the exterior wall. It will vent up and out.
pootza wrote: Codes are made on assumption that things are operated to the max to protect knowledgeable homeowners from themselves. You just can't say oh you'll probably never do it but it happens one day that you do do it.
Supplemental make up air for range hoods might not be in the building code but then they might be in the installation manual for the range/range hood and you would have to follow that because you have to install things as per manufactures instruction and that is in the building code.
"Then, in the 2018 IRC, the makeup-air provisions were tweaked. The hazard first spelled out in 1971—the presence of fuel-fired appliances inside the home—reemerged. The requirement to provide makeup air is now tied to the actual danger. But while the risk identified all those years ago hasn’t changed, the available appliances have. Appliances that draft naturally are still around, but are incredibly inefficient because they use heat generated by the appliance as the mechanism to carry the combustion products to the atmosphere. If you have one of these appliances—be it a furnace, a boiler, a water heater, or something else—and a range hood capable of exhausting more than 400 cfm, you need makeup air.

But with greater attention to energy conservation, direct-vent and mechanical-exhaust appliances are increasingly common in homes. Direct-vent appliances pull their own combustion air from the exterior through a dedicated pipe and have a closed combustion chamber; they do not communicate with the air in the home and aren’t affected by the depressurizing effects of a ripping kitchen exhaust. A mechanical venting system may share the same air as the rest of the house, but it has a fan and can fight back against the range hood to force the exhaust out of the house. As long as fuel- burning appliances inside a home’s thermal envelope are either direct-vent or mechanically exhausted, a kitchen exhaust can be any size and no makeup air is required."

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/ar ... en-exhaust

This is a US based site, but I added it here for general information.

This subject comes up often. I don't disagree that MUA is ideal, but I would love to see one single example of when a lack of MUA resulted in any kind of residential crisis. There are millions of overpowered hood fans running across North America every single day, yet there isn't one single story of this being an issue.

As for Ontario Building Code, I'd love to see where it specifically says MUA is required by code. Manufacturers are largely silent on the topic. If it actually was a Code requirement, they would be required to point this out to buyers or face a significant liability if they didn't.

There are many 600 CFM hoods that don't use 10" vents.

Bon chance.
"I'm a bit upset. I've been grab by the back without any alert and lubrification"
Lucky
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If your hood is on an exterior wall and free standing (Not in between cabinets)... just have a simple one put in by the builder .. then top it out and get what you want. If you need millwork done to match the cabinets... if it's a custom home builder you should know who the company is supplying the cabinets and they should be able to build you what's needed. If not I'm sure you can find other places that can match it...usually not hard as most designs are pretty standard..
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Tabooger wrote: I don't know if you guys are on crack or I am, he obviously meant builder as in minto/richcraft/claridge etc..
Since the original post was edited after I made my posts, it makes more sense now.
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Toukolou wrote: As for Ontario Building Code, I'd love to see where it specifically says MUA is required by code. Manufacturers are largely silent on the topic. If it actually was a Code requirement, they would be required to point this out to buyers or face a significant liability if they didn't.

6.2.3.11. Make-up Air

(1) In ventilating systems that exhaust air to the outdoors, provision shall be made for the admission of a supply of make-up air in sufficient quantity so that the operation of the exhaust system and other exhaust equipment or combustion equipment is not adversely affected.
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pootza wrote: 6.2.3.11. Make-up Air

(1) In ventilating systems that exhaust air to the outdoors, provision shall be made for the admission of a supply of make-up air in sufficient quantity so that the operation of the exhaust system and other exhaust equipment or combustion equipment is not adversely affected.
Who decides? What are the parameters of "adversely affected"? Building codes are typically very clear. "Railing needs to be x inches from the ground". Not sure how enforceable, or useful, codes that are open to interpretation can be.

See the quote I provided in my prior post. Direct vent appliances don't need make up air.
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Toukolou wrote: Who decides? What are the parameters of "adversely affected"? Building codes are typically very clear. "Railing needs to be x inches from the ground". Not sure how enforceable, or useful, codes that are open to interpretation can be.

6.2.1.1. Good Engineering Practice

(1) Heating, ventilating and air-conditioning systems, including related mechanical refrigeration systems, shall be designed, constructed and installed to conform to good engineering practice appropriate to the circumstances such as described in,

(a) the ASHRAE Handbooks as follows:

(i) Fundamentals,

(ii) Refrigeration,

(iii) HVAC applications,

(iv) HVAC Systems and Equipment, and

(v) ANSI/ASHRAE/IESNA 90.1, "Energy Standard for buildings Except Low-Rise residential Buildings",

(b) the CSA F280, "Determining the Required Capacity of residential Space Heating and Cooling Appliances", and the outside winter design temperatures shall conform to MMAH Supplementary Standard SB-1, "Climatic and Seismic Data",

(c) CAN/CSA-F326-M, "residential Mechanical ventilation Systems",

(d) the nfpa Fire Codes,

(e) the HRAI Digest,

(f) the Hydronics Institute Manuals,

(g) the SMACNA Manuals,

(h) ACGIH, "industrial Ventilation Manual",

(i) CAN/CSA-Z317.2, "Special Requirements for Heating, ventilation, and Air Conditioning (HVAC) Systems in Health Care Facilities",

(j) CCBFC NRCC 38730, "Model National Energy Code of Canada for Buildings",

(k) CCBFC NRCC 54435, "National Energy Code of Canada for Buildings", and

(l) EPA/625/R-92/016, "Radon Prevention in the Design and Construction of Schools and Other Large Buildings".
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pootza wrote: 6.2.1.1. Good Engineering Practice

(1) Heating, ventilating and air-conditioning systems, including related mechanical refrigeration systems, shall be designed, constructed and installed to conform to good engineering practice appropriate to the circumstances such as described in,

(a) the ASHRAE Handbooks as follows:

(i) Fundamentals,

(ii) Refrigeration,

(iii) HVAC applications,

(iv) HVAC Systems and Equipment, and

(v) ANSI/ASHRAE/IESNA 90.1, "Energy Standard for buildings Except Low-Rise residential Buildings",

(b) the CSA F280, "Determining the Required Capacity of residential Space Heating and Cooling Appliances", and the outside winter design temperatures shall conform to MMAH Supplementary Standard SB-1, "Climatic and Seismic Data",

(c) CAN/CSA-F326-M, "residential Mechanical ventilation Systems",

(d) the nfpa Fire Codes,

(e) the HRAI Digest,

(f) the Hydronics Institute Manuals,

(g) the SMACNA Manuals,

(h) ACGIH, "industrial Ventilation Manual",

(i) CAN/CSA-Z317.2, "Special Requirements for Heating, ventilation, and Air Conditioning (HVAC) Systems in Health Care Facilities",

(j) CCBFC NRCC 38730, "Model National Energy Code of Canada for Buildings",

(k) CCBFC NRCC 54435, "National Energy Code of Canada for Buildings", and

(l) EPA/625/R-92/016, "Radon Prevention in the Design and Construction of Schools and Other Large Buildings".
Again, I'd love to see a specific code saying xx CFM requires MUA. What are the OBC parameters for requiring MUA?

If it's so clear that 401+CFM requires MUA, why doesn't it just say that? There isn't any clear language surrounding this. And if there's one about the OBC, it's pretty clear in it's requirements, as it should be.

As I said, in all of the threads surrounding this topic people are always going on that "it's required" but I've yet to see anything clear about it, and have never come across a story about some tragedy occurring because of a lack of MUA. There are millions of these things installed without MUA, and not one single example of something bad happening because of it.
"I'm a bit upset. I've been grab by the back without any alert and lubrification"
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